Vibration question

[Red dust]

Do you want me to add the non vibe stuff: Altrider crash bars, Parabellum screen, Madstad bracket, Altrider bigfoot, Altrider gear rack, SW-Motech side pannier rack, RotoPax system 1 - +2 Gallon with all the thinkable and not thinkable attachements, TraX pasnniers, Magadan Panniers, Rok straps (awesome accessory!), ACD skid [plate , Altrider crashbars, Wolfman here and Wolfman there and much more, this thing weigh like a tank but still try to love it...

 

[Red dust]

Sorry that was crash bars twice, got carried away....

 

[sharealike]

Waiting for someone to come up with a solution. Already spend in excess of $2000 to minimize vibration which helped zilch but gave me better ergonomics (Flexx bars & bar risers), Unleashed the engine (ECU tune), the need for gorilla hands (other grips plus foam grips), better sound (after market muffler that someone said would help), anchors for the boat I do not have (heavy end bar weights), manual cruise control, CO adj and air screws & more. So if someone got a permanent solution I`m willing to spend more (might as well continue...). In the end of the day if you can not ride the thing what does power, ergo`s and sound mean? There is no perfect bike but this one could come pretty close except the painful vibes :-(

This is interesting. The owners I'm working with (prototyping basket modifications) find the vibration most annoying through the frame, seat, pegs and tank. They are not too concerned, if at all with vibration through the bars. Could be the bar vibration is another form of the same thing. Might be a case for involving some owners with the severe bar vibration in the prototyping to prove one way or another. Last thing we need if the clutch modifications prove to be the answer for one vibration is an automatic assumption it will cure the bar vibration. Clutch mod gets a bad name for not working all of the time or folk give up looking for the real cause of the bar vibes is something to be avoided.

Theory I have is one that someone might already have proved...... And perhaps needs confirming first. Does the handle bar vibration die down if the clutch lever is feathered?

Handle bars have been changed in attempts to cure the vibration. Changed in both stiffness and weight by many yet few or no reports of anything conclusive.

1- Added to and perhaps reduced weight in the stock bars.

2 - Stiffer and perhaps more flexible bars.

3 - Method of mounting and overall dimensions of the bars themselves changed.

4 - some radically different bars have been tried without any major improvement.

I think it's likely the vibration in the bars is being triggered and kept going by the engine. Tell me if you think or know otherwise. The bars are not likely to be vibrating to cause the numbness described due to wheel balance, tyre type, condition or wheel bearing issues. The engine vibration route is likely to first pass into the frame, from there to the steering head bearings and then across the rolling elements of these bearings to the top and bottom fork yokes. Bars being mounted to the top yoke (triple clamps to some). Forks are very stiff but flex and have a heavy wheel mounted at one end with the variable flexibility of the steering head bearings at the other.

Has anyone had the steering head bearings adjusted in an attempt to cure the handle bar vibration? The factory pre-set will only loosen from new because of the way the bearings settle into their seats. I would expect this to be a check in the bikes early life such as first service. Perhaps something a workshop can miss doing correctly or avoid after "a feels ok to me test" on machines with bodywork round the head bearings and poor access to the head top yoke area.

For me the steering head bearing tension or pre-load as often called is the only point where one bike could vary significantly enough from another to either allow or prevent engine vibration from reaching the handle bars. Even more so if the whole of the bikes forks are flexing to amplify the vibration. I know this happens on some larger single cylinder machines. Typical scenario is low revs, pulling hard, front slightly lighter due to acceleration and the whole front forks can shudder in time with the engine. Tighten the head bearing pre load and it can diminish significantly. The head bearings would not have to feel loose or have detectable free play. Just not have what can be a relatively high level of pre load specified in the book.

Take this scenario to a higher frequency vibrating twin with far stiffer forks and perhaps no need to lighten the front end and it might reach the hand numbing frequencies being reported. Likely the source is still the same engine vibration we seem to be proving is from the clutch. Then again its a new frame, forks and engine configuration. Perhaps the handle bar vibration is just down to this new layout being sensitive to engine differences or head bearing pre-load.

 

[Dallara]

...Has anyone had the steering head bearings adjusted in an attempt to cure the handle bar vibration? The factory pre-set will only loosen from new because of the way the bearings settle into their seats. I would expect this to be a check in the bikes early life such as first service. Perhaps something a workshop can miss doing correctly or avoid after "a feels ok to me test" on machines with bodywork round the head bearings and poor access to the head top yoke area.

For me the steering head bearing tension or pre-load as often called is the only point where one bike could vary significantly enough from another to either allow or prevent engine vibration from reaching the handle bars...

...Perhaps the handle bar vibration is just down to this new layout being sensitive to engine differences or head bearing pre-load.

<some terrific stuff snipped for space>

Ya' know... I think you may be onto something here, Sharealike.

First off, remember that I don't feel any untoward, annoying, or otherwise uncomfortable vibrations with my Super Tenere. I only comment here because I have down regular maintenance and checks on my steering head bearings, fork pinch bolt torque, axle torque, axle pinch bolt torque, fork alignment, etc.

I was one of the USA "early adopters" of the Super Tenere, but it wasn't too long after it was released here in the States that a number of owners discovered their steering head bearings loose and bereft of grease. When I read this here on the forums I immediately went and checked mine, and low and behold that's what I found - mine were loose and lacking almost any lubricant. Small amount of my own bearing grease mix, a quick look at the service manual for the two-step tightening procedure and torque values, and some wrenching later all was well. Since then I have checked my steering head torque, etc. every few thousand miles and only once since then (10's of thousands of miles ago) has it needed any attention.

Again, with careful attention to the service manual procedure it has taken about ten or twenty minutes and it was all well again.

Then there is the matter of fork alignment and pinch bolt, torque, etc....

Several Super Tenere owners reported a "clicking" (along with a slight vibe, IIRC) in their front ends, most often under braking or cornering, and found that careful loosening of all the various pinch bolts in the front end followed by careful realignment and re-snugging all the fasteners in careful order, as per the service manual, solved the issue completely. Now I never had this problem, as coming from an MX background this was something I carefully did each time I changed a front tire, but I think I was one of the first to suggest loosening, realigning, retorquing, etc. as a possible "fix".

Anyway, I think you might be onto one possible "cure" for these folks having handlebar vibe issues. Hopefully some will get their service manuals and wrenches out and see if anything is loose, improperly torqued, or misaligned in their front ends.

Thanks, Sharealike! ::008::

Dallara



~

 

[Yamaguy55]

Stoopid me... ::010::

I've ragged on others to check their front end for binding forks after they cinched up the front axle too tight and didn't let everything find a neutral place before tightening fork clamps. I didn't even think about steering head and such, but should have. Again: ::010::

So: I'll go over the entire front end today, and if it helps/changes/anything, I'll let you know. Since my handlebar vibration is a much broader RPM range than the original problem's range, there must be something else going on. For all I know, I could have an "in addition to" problem, with stacked problems aiding and abetting each other. I'll check and report back.

Thanks for bringing it up. Most problems are much more simple than they often appear.

Thanks again.

 

[sharealike]

Might be easy to feel if the clutch basket excited vibration is the same one that's reaching the handle bars.

Does the hand numbing handle bar vibration die down if the clutch lever is feathered? This is the test to confirm if any of the other vibration is from the clutch basket damper.

By feather the clutch I mean pull the lever in just a hair to take out all the free play. Just to the point the clutch is about to slip but don't let it. Can take a little practice to do this while passing through the vibration zone, but if the vibes die down its a sign the clutch is the source. A reliable test to confirm the clutch basket damper issue in the VStrom's. Now carried over to the S10 it's what led us to the clutch being the likely source in these engines also.

 

[Yamaguy55]

Might be easy to feel if the clutch basket excited vibration is the same one that's reaching the handle bars.

Does the hand numbing handle bar vibration die down if the clutch lever is feathered? This is the test to confirm if any of the other vibration is from the clutch basket damper.

By feather the clutch I mean pull the lever in just a hair to take out all the free play. Just to the point the clutch is about to slip but don't let it. Can take a little practice to do this while passing through the vibration zone, but if the vibes die down its a sign the clutch is the source. A reliable test to confirm the clutch basket damper issue in the VStrom's. Now carried over to the S10 it's what led us to the clutch being the likely source in these engines also.

Went though the entire front end, nothing obviously off, but test ride in hills/short steep mountains afterwards showed a marked reduction in vibrations. The notched retaining nut for the steering stem was found to be snug. Clean grease in bearings, no damage in noted of bearings or races. Cleaned of existing grease, relubed with moly based stuff I use. Retorqued every bolt in front end except calipers and fender mounts. Loosened lower fork axle clamp bolts, cycled suspension several times, torqued after.

Not really sure what changed, but something did. Temps outside about 15 degrees F cooler today. That may also be a factor.
I can just barely detect 3-3.2K rpm range clutch shake, but it is minimal enough I have the actually try to notice it.feathering the clutch as stated above does prove it. But today's change has removed that from the stronger vibe portion of the RPM band, which is now from about 3200 to above 4000, peak at about 3500-3800. I'm of the opinion that I have layered/stacked problems and I'll have to peel them off a layer at a time.

A suggestion was made that indicates fueling may be the next stage to eliminate. Until that or whatever it is is cleared up, I can't state the clutch is a major player as first thought. The cooler temps often have an effect of stock fuel maps' effects, so I want to see how things go this week before I proceed.

Thanks to all for any suggestions. Sooner or later I'll get to the bottom of it.

 

[sharealike]

Not really sure what changed, but something did. Temps outside about 15 degrees F cooler today. That may also be a factor.
I can just barely detect 3-3.2K rpm range clutch shake, but it is minimal enough I have the actually try to notice it.feathering the clutch as stated above does prove it. But today's change has removed that from the stronger vibe portion of the RPM band, which is now from about 3200 to above 4000, peak at about 3500-3800. I'm of the opinion that I have layered/stacked problems and I'll have to peel them off a layer at a time.

A suggestion was made that indicates fueling may be the next stage to eliminate. Until that or whatever it is is cleared up, I can't state the clutch is a major player as first thought. The cooler temps often have an effect of stock fuel maps' effects, so I want to see how things go this week before I proceed.

A little more progress if nothing yet conclusive.

Of interest is that you aren't the first to report a difference in what might still be unacceptable vibration from the clutch as the temperature changes. One of the guys testing the prototype clutch baskets had no problem with clutch vibration in his original unit while ever the engine was cold. What was certainly clutch vibration came in as soon as his oil approached and then reached normal operating temperature. Adjustments I made to the prototype now running might also back this theory up. The damper in the basket does rely on some friction to work effectively. Although not an oil damper, I do expect oil and engine temperature to have some influence. It does in some of the stock Suzuki baskets.

 

[Yamaguy55]

Food for thought. At this point I'm working on eliminating the obvious. Today I pulled the tank and checked every connection and tightened every bolt/nut/fastener I could find. I haven't given up on the basket damper idea, but I'd like to check the easy external stuff before I start pulling engine cases.
So far, I have yet to actually find anything I could point to and say: "Ah Ha!"
I may not be very bright, but I am very persistent.

 

[Longboard]

So....

Riding down the highway the other day I started thinking as to what might cause the vibration in the bars.

Well, I think I might have stumbled I was doing about 70mph and stating feeling around with my left hand. Most things have very little vibrations. The tank, dash, wind screen and even the bars in he center you feel little vib when you touch them.

But then I found it. When t touched the hand guard It was vibrating like crazy. The vibration is transferred to the ends of the handlebars. It calms down when you touch the grips but you for sure can still feel it. Moving down the bars towards the center you feel the vib getting less and less.

The next step is to remove them and go for a ride to see if the vibration is gone or less.

More soon.

Longboard

 

[sharealike]

Please could owners try this to confirm or eliminate the clutch basket as the source of their handle bar vibration. Great to eliminate the clutch as the source of the bar vibe so we can concentrate on the clutch vibration here.

Might be easy to feel if the clutch basket excited vibration is the same one that's reaching the handle bars.

Does the hand numbing handle bar vibration die down if the clutch lever is feathered? This is the test to confirm if any of the other vibration is from the clutch basket damper.

By feather the clutch I mean pull the lever in just a hair to take out all the free play. Just to the point the clutch is about to slip but don't let it. Can take a little practice to do this while passing through the vibration zone, but if the vibes die down its a sign the clutch is the source. This was the reliable test to confirm the clutch basket damper issue in the VStrom's. Now carried over to the S10 it's what led us to the clutch being the likely source in these engines also.

 

[fredz43]

Please could owners try this to confirm or eliminate the clutch basket as the source of their handle bar vibration. Great to eliminate the clutch as the source of the bar vibe so we can concentrate on the clutch vibration here.

I have very little vibration in the RPM area in question, but it does decrease if I feather the clutch slightly while going thru that range.

(Gen 2 flash)

 

[Yamaguy55]

So....

Riding down the highway the other day I started thinking as to what might cause the vibration in the bars.

Well, I think I might have stumbled I was doing about 70mph and stating feeling around with my left hand. Most things have very little vibrations. The tank, dash, wind screen and even the bars in he center you feel little vib when you touch them.

But then I found it. When t touched the hand guard It was vibrating like crazy. The vibration is transferred to the ends of the handlebars. It calms down when you touch the grips but you for sure can still feel it. Moving down the bars towards the center you feel the vib getting less and less.

The next step is to remove them and go for a ride to see if the vibration is gone or less.

More soon.

Longboard

I don't have the handguards mounted right now, as I recently installed Pro-Taper bars and haven't gotten around to refitting the handguards. the Pro-Tapers are an improvement, but not a fix. I can't say how it feels with the stock bars and no handguards.

I'll be checking more things this week, hope to get something definitive and repeatable.

 

[Chickengrease]

Vib-a-ration bugs me everyday, now sometimes my hands cramp because of the oversize foam/clown grips I have to deal with. But you know, yesterday at Redbud I experienced ZERO arm pump riding the YZ250 on whooped out grass track. Might now look at it as a valuable training aid. NOT. Did try putting pressure on the clutch but results were inconclusive. Try again tomorrow.

 

[Yamaguy55]

I took the day off from work, made a trip to the dealer and did a 250 mile round trip. I tried again to be sure, and there is an effect when I feather the clutch. I could repeat it over and over, and it because more pronounced as the day warmed up. On the way down this morning, it was quite cool, this afternoon about 70F. However, it was merely a matter of degree, the vibes were definitely there. The vibration doesn't stop by feathering the clutch lever, but does drop in amplitude by quite a bit. Mine is most obvious from around 3000 RPM through 4000 RPM. There are dips and hills of vibration within that range, but as that is the range where I spend most of my time. Theres also another spot right under 3000, from about 2500 to 2800 indicated.

I also think there are other things adding to this, and I will probably do the Gen2 reflash after riding season is over.

 

[ejy712]

Please could owners try this to confirm or eliminate the clutch basket as the source of their handle bar vibration. Great to eliminate the clutch as the source of the bar vibe so we can concentrate on the clutch vibration here.

The bar vibe is definitely correlated with the clutch vibe on my S10. Feathering the clutch very lightly removes the bar vibration where grabbing the left handlebar tightly does not stop the bar vibration. This occurs right around 3000 rpm.

I've tested this several times now in 63F->77F temperatures, no difference in test results.

I also noticed that this vibration does not occur when the S10 is not warmed up.

 

[sharealike]

Thank you ejy712. Very useful information.

Your bars seem to be picking up the clutch vibration.

Your comments on engine temperature are also very interesting. Have heard this before. Any other owners with less clutch vibration while the engine is warming up?

 

[roll_it_on]

I have vibration transmitted to my handlebars from the clutch for sure. It is very distinctive and also is more pronounced when the bike it up to temperature. When I purchased/installed the second new OEM basket it was non existent for about 200 miles and then started to creep back in. Sure was nice for that 200 mile run ::26::

 

[autoteach]

So, after testing the clutch pressure/vibration variable I am convinced. While the engine did smooth out with age, it then had an increase in vibration over the last 5k miles (at 21k miles now). So, rather than fix a basket I was really interested in an aftermarket solution. here is what Barnett had to say:



Bill,
We are aware of the basket problem with the Suer Tenere basket. At present, we are looking into it, but have
nothing to offer at this time. We do have a billetr pressure plate/spring conversion available, but while it gives you
a better option for applying spring pressure to the clutch pack, it does nothing to cure the vibration and clutch
noise you speak of.
I will keep your email and contact you when we come up with cure for the problem. Thank you for your email.

Mike Taylor
Celebrating Our 65th Year Producing Quality Motorcycle Products!

Barnett Performance Products
2238 Palma Dr
Ventura, Ca 93003

805 642-9435
Monday to Thursday. 8 to 4pm. PST

 

[Red dust]

Maybe all of us with this issue (we are quite a few) could contact Barnett Performance and kindly ask them to "speed"up the process?