Vibration question

[realshelby]

here is a guy in Texas that has been doing VStrom baskets. Maybe one of the Texas members could work with him for an S10 solution

http://www.werksparts.com/WERKS_Parts.php

I have not posted about my work with the S10. I don't want to stir up controversy similar to what happened on the V Strom site. There are enough owners contacting me that I think it is time to at least let it be known what I am doing.

I have been working on S10 baskets since the end of April this year. There is an owner here with a prototype basket, the latest version has been running for 2-3 months or so. Not having an S10 myself complicates the process. We have made improvements. I have found stuff that doesn't work, and things that do. There is still vibrations that SEEM to be from the clutch basket. I have more testing to try, hopefully soon. The work done so far seems to be holding up like I expect it to. So the foundation is there, just need to tune out the vibes!

 

[tc9988]

I have not posted about my work with the S10. I don't want to stir up controversy similar to what happened on the V Strom site. There are enough owners contacting me that I think it is time to at least let it be known what I am doing.

I have been working on S10 baskets since the end of April this year. There is an owner here with a prototype basket, the latest version has been running for 2-3 months or so. Not having an S10 myself complicates the process. We have made improvements. I have found stuff that doesn't work, and things that do. There is still vibrations that SEEM to be from the clutch basket. I have more testing to try, hopefully soon. The work done so far seems to be holding up like I expect it to. So the foundation is there, just need to tune out the vibes!

I could use more input if anyone is interested. Let me know via e-mail ( terry@werksparts.com ) if you might be interested in running a prototype build. No charge except for shipping it to me.

I spent an hour on the VStrom site last night. It was entertaining. ;D Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[sharealike]

I spent an hour on the VStrom site last night. It was entertaining. ;D Keep us posted on your progress.

There's the full technical side here - http://www.vstrom.info/Smf/index.php?topic=12325.0

Updated video of the problems in the ST basket ST faults and deterioration

 

[Dallara]

~


Has anyone else happened to notice something rather interesting in Yamaha's changes to the new 2014 Super Tenere just shown in Europe?

You know, the part where it says "Shaft drive with rubber clutch damper... And for increased comfort and durability the latest model is fitted with new rubber clutch dampers that give an even smoother ride."

Seems even Yamaha has caught on to the work you guys, and others are doing, and that they have recognized there is a problem there. Wonder if the new 2014 clutch basket can be retrofitted into the current and older models?


Dallara




~

 

[Yamaguy55]

~


Has anyone else happened to notice something rather interesting in Yamaha's changes to the new 2014 Super Tenere just shown in Europe?

You know, the part where it says "Shaft drive with rubber clutch damper... And for increased comfort and durability the latest model is fitted with new rubber clutch dampers that give an even smoother ride."

Seems even Yamaha has caught on to the work you guys, and others are doing, and that they have recognized there is a problem there. Wonder if the new 2014 clutch basket can be retrofitted into the current and older models?


Dallara




~

Yep. I noticed it right away. Even looked at the parts listing but the 2014s weren't there. I'm guessing all or most of the 2014 features will be backwards compatible.

 

[Koinz]

This looks very interesting. If it's not backward compatible, maybe a trade up is in order? ???

 

[Mark R.]

Yep. I noticed it right away. Even looked at the parts listing but the 2014s weren't there. I'm guessing all or most of the 2014 features will be backwards compatible.

I can't imagine it is not. The '14 really has no changes to its basic architecture.

 

[sharealike]

~


Has anyone else happened to notice something rather interesting in Yamaha's changes to the new 2014 Super Tenere just shown in Europe?

You know, the part where it says "Shaft drive with rubber clutch damper... And for increased comfort and durability the latest model is fitted with new rubber clutch dampers that give an even smoother ride."

Seems even Yamaha has caught on to the work you guys, and others are doing, and that they have recognized there is a problem there. Wonder if the new 2014 clutch basket can be retrofitted into the current and older models?


Dallara




~

They might have. Sales folk have to overcome all objections to purchasing before they close a sale.

But you don't put "rubber" in a clutch torsion damper which is the source of the vibrations in this thread. Clutch sits in oil and is subjected to high temperatures. Rubber does not like that. Only clutches I've seen with what could be described as rubber like dampers in a wet clutch (sits in the oil) are small capacity single cylinder off road bikes. All too often it softens and breaks up after not much use so the engine turns real harsh. What ever it might be made of it should not be called "rubber".

Other clutch dampers in larger Ducati's once used something that looked like rubber. But these were dry clutches so the "rubber like" parts did not get polluted by the oil. Again they did not last long before needing a change. Perhaps in part because they could not avoid the heat. They were a bit like the cushion drive you see in the rear sprocket in a chain drive bike.

Be interesting to see just what it is when it launches. Anything elastic like rubber and its synthetic equivalents that come under load in the drive line will change character over time. I doubt Yamaha are going to degrade their high quality shaft drive by introducing something like that. The shaft drive should already have a mechanical damper built in but could need something extra. Needed to cope with the rear wheel accelerating and decelerating very quickly as the suspension rises and falls over ripples and pot holes. And also needed because the universal joint which allows the shaft to bend at the swing arm pivot is a plain universal joint. It causes slight speed fluctuations because it's not a CV joint as in constant velocity type. These things vibrate if not paired with another to cancel it out or set up in the perfect environment to work on their own.

My guess is the marketing boys could also have picked up on what's already there and is actualy called a clutch damper in the parts list. It's built into the engine cover over the clutch. It's a thick lump of sound absorbent padding held in place with a steel frame that damps noise. Does not touch the clutch or any moving parts so not there to damp any vibration coming from the transmission other than noise. Could be they are selling us this again or a new version which is designed to address the clutch vibrations discussed in this thread. There is also the same sort of rubber like damper in the cover over the bevel gears at the front of the shaft. Damps noise like the one over the clutch - not vibration.

What ever it turns out to be I guess it will be backwards compatible.

 

[scott123007]

They might have. Sales folk have to overcome all objections to purchasing before they close a sale.

But you don't put "rubber" in a clutch torsion damper which is the source of the vibrations in this thread. Clutch sits in oil and is subjected to high temperatures. Rubber does not like that. Only clutches I've seen with what could be described as rubber like dampers in a wet clutch (sits in the oil) are small capacity single cylinder off road bikes. All too often it softens and breaks up after not much use so the engine turns real harsh. What ever it might be made of it should not be called "rubber".

Other clutch dampers in larger Ducati's once used something that looked like rubber. But these were dry clutches so the "rubber like" parts did not get polluted by the oil. Again they did not last long before needing a change. Perhaps in part because they could not avoid the heat. They were a bit like the cushion drive you see in the rear sprocket in a chain drive bike.

Be interesting to see just what it is when it launches. Anything elastic like rubber and its synthetic equivalents that come under load in the drive line will change character over time. I doubt Yamaha are going to degrade their high quality shaft drive by introducing something like that. The shaft drive should already have a mechanical damper built in but could need something extra. Needed to cope with the rear wheel accelerating and decelerating very quickly as the suspension rises and falls over ripples and pot holes. And also needed because the universal joint which allows the shaft to bend at the swing arm pivot is a plain universal joint. It causes slight speed fluctuations because it's not a CV joint as in constant velocity type. These things vibrate if not paired with another to cancel it out or set up in the perfect environment to work on their own.

My guess is the marketing boys could also have picked up on what's already there and is actualy called a clutch damper in the parts list. It's built into the engine cover over the clutch. It's a thick lump of sound absorbent padding held in place with a steel frame that damps noise. Does not touch the clutch or any moving parts so not there to damp any vibration coming from the transmission other than noise. Could be they are selling us this again or a new version which is designed to address the clutch vibrations discussed in this thread. There is also the same sort of rubber like damper in the cover over the bevel gears at the front of the shaft. Damps noise like the one over the clutch - not vibration.

What ever it turns out to be I guess it will be backwards compatible.

Seriously? You can't have rubber that is compatible with high heat and oil? LOL

 

[Yamaguy55]

Seriously? You can't have rubber that is compatible with high heat and oil? LOL

He's not saying that. What he is saying is it would take a special compound to do the job, and that most polymer dampers used in clutch baskets are mounted in smaller, less powerful engines mounted in much lighter bikes. Which means they can get away with a concept that may not survive in our application. Oil and other petroleum products do break down polymers. Most either chunk off or get very had and then are no longer usable in the original application. Look at oil seals and other polymer items. They certainly are very god, but not forever products. Most every "rubber" part in the Tenere engine is shown on the "replace" list under any procedure. That's good advice.

The idea of a polymer damper is intriguing, but I'll adopt a wait and see attitude myself. If it is not only better but actually lasts, I'll be impressed. I'l not jump from one resolved problem to an unproven fix. I'm really interested in the alleged one in the shaft drive. The current cam-spring affair is very tough and long since proven. I hope that remains.

 

[tc9988]

Hmmm

 

[tc9988]

Rubber Clutch Damper VT1300CR

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/2010/VT1300CR+AC/CLUTCH/parts.html check part 5

 

[~TABASCO~]

good job.... That's probably what the 2014 looks like..... ::008:: That should take out the 'vibe'

 

[Koinz]

Leave it to Honda to think of that. ::003::

 

[Yamaguy55]

Looks like a rear wheel hub damper. Most of my chain drive bikes had something similar. Idea is good, we'll see how the inserts do. Maybe they do have forever rubber, and maybe you just change them as required.

 

[sharealike]

Re: Rubber Clutch Damper VT1300CR

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/2010/VT1300CR+AC/CLUTCH/parts.html check part 5

Interesting find. The item 5's described as Rubber, Clutch Damper are in the clutch hub. Not the clutch basket as in the ST. They won't be "rubber" and are on the output side of the clutch so isolated from the peak torques by the flywheel effect of it's large and heavy clutch. They are in the exact same place as the dry clutch Ducati's - but not dry on this Honda. Effectively in much the same place as your cushion hub in the rear wheel but the VT1300 is shaft.

I never perceived the VT1300 to be built as a refined bike for covering distance. More of a Harley competitor with similar but tamed down long stroke 60 degree V twin character.

Is the picture VT1300? The overload stops look to come in very early and the working radius of the "rubbers" is very small. Puzzle is why it's open and picture taken. Only been out a few years here in the UK and no one has been anywhere on them yet.

 

[sharealike]

Was at the UK bike show yesterday. New 2014 XT1200 engine looks just the same as before. No sign of changes to the clutch cover to make room for a different clutch.

I also checked the parts fiche to find there are already some "damper rubbers" listed that fit in the hub of the rear wheel. They fit in what the parts fiche describes as the "clutch hub". Even though this is nowhere near the bikes clutch and technically it is certainly not a clutch.

Perhaps the Yamaha promotional leaflet is referring to these rubbers (item 13) in the rear wheel when they write "Shaft drive with rubber clutch damper... And for increased comfort and durability the latest model is fitted with new rubber clutch dampers that give an even smoother ride." Could be all the new bike has is revised rubbers in the back wheel cush hub? Not likely to introduce another "rubber" cushion like this in the clutch. Not enough room.

EICMA messages for the 2014 bike say "a rubber damper has been incorporated into the clutch to reduce driveline shocks" Again I ask if they are taking the description of clutch to be what they call a clutch in the back wheel that's already there? Real clutches are too remote don't reduce drive line shocks but cushion rubbers as in item 13 do.

"and a new tapered aluminium handlebar that sits on revised, vibration-reducing clamps fort less vibes" - seems they know the new bike could be plagued with vibration through the bars.


Changes to these rubbers might be expected to address another vibration some owners reported which comes from the swing arm and shaft at low speeds and is being blamed by some on choice of rear tyre.

My modifications to the torsion/vibration damper in the clutch basket continues. That's a damper which is part of the bikes actual clutch.

 

[Koinz]

I hope its more inline with what Honda has done that was shown in a previous thread (rubber dampers in the basket itself) Time will tell.

 

[sharealike]

Update on clutch basket modifications.

We are there. After running baskets with four different modifications, I can now safely say we have come up with a solution to the vibration generated in the clutch basket of the Super Tenere XT1200.

The problem is similar to that I fathomed out in the DL1000 and SV1000 Suzuki's in that it results from poor design, but in those engines it take at least 5,000 miles or more to show up and slowly gets worse as the miles build and wear sets in.

Here in the case of the ST in most engines it's going to be present from new or very near new. Unlike the Suzuki's, which required re-engineering to rectify poor quality manufacture that caused premature wear, the ST has required more of a re-design to address fundamental flaws in the original design. The basket is of the exact same design as those found in other engines I have worked on, but clearly not stable enough when scaled up and used in the high torque engine of a 90 degree cross plane crank 1200 cc twin.

The only external signs the baskets have been vibrating and that there is anything wrong is the premature and uneven wear marks on the splines of the basket.
Notice the eight wear marks on the spline of the basket. These are in the driving direction caused by contact with the tangs of the friction plates. Note there is little or no sign of similar marks on the same faces of the splines above and below. These marks should be less severe and show equally on all or most faces of the splines in this driving direction. If you have the vibrations similar to those described by owners back in this thread and find these uneven marks on the splines of your clutch basket, then that is most likely to be the source.

Now ready to widen availability of the re-designed baskets. Ideally this will be for owners making fair use of their bikes over the next few months. Perhaps on the warmer side of the planet. Full instructions supplied covering the removal and fitting of the re-designed basket supplied (no need to drain the oil). Please PM or email directly to John - vibefreeSV@yahoo.com if interested.

Please take note there are others using the "We" to perhaps associate themselves with my research and modification work.
Just to clarify the baskets I have worked on that are reported about here are those of ianf.
I have other baskets here belonging to members that I hope they will be reporting on soon. Not my position to disclose who they are though.

 

[realshelby]

We have proven beyond a doubt that the clutch basket is responsible for some vibrations in the S-10. Not vibrations you would expect from a parallel twin. When new these vibrations are not there and it takes some miles before they are evident. The owner that started this post was familiar with the vibration problems from clutch baskets in the 1000 V Stroms and he could tell he was experiencing similar issues. In no way are they as bad as the V Stroms but they are aggravating especially when you know they didn't used to be there. The S-10 clutch basket is a lot higher quality casting and has much better machining than the V Strom baskets. In fact the problems do not appear to be related to the aluminum basket in any way. The steel gear is not a problem ( same with the V Stroms ). It appears that the relationship between the top plate, the three inner spring pocket reinforcements and the springs is where the basket develops some vibrations. I have 4 different designs so far that I have tried. All are an improvement, all still have a hint of vibrations that I am working to reduce. The modifications are taking a large percentage of the vibration away, what is left is mostly only noticeable under a decent load in a narrow rpm range. These modifications should be permanent, I don't expect the vibrations to return over time. But, as with the V Strom work I have done I am not satisfied that the results are as good as can be attained. I have bought new equipment for the shop that will allow me to take this work to the next level. More to follow.