Vibration question

[Dallara]

Mine seems to vibe at 3000 (only between 3000-3100) in 1st - 2nd gear under any load... I rarely hammer 1-2nd riding to work, Etc... It almost seems to vibe more in 1-2 if I just ride like an "old dude".... Its not a big deal to me, but if one day if someone puts their finger on it the 'issue' it would be nice to know what the 'issue' is/was....

I've checked fueling a hundred times and this 'issue' is not fueling at all... Its just something mechanical in the motor somewhere..... no biggie... she is a great bike ! ::26::

Amen, Jaxon.

It well and truly is a great, terrific motorcycle. One of the very, very best I've ever owned. And whatever vibes it has don't bother me in the slightest. In fact, I never notice any vibes when I'm riding it.

But then again, I started riding back when lots of motorcycles *REALLY* vibrated... Triumph Cub singles, Triumph TR6 and T120 twins, BSA twins and Victor singles, Harley big-twins and Sportsters that would shake your teeth out... And it was just Euro and American bikes... Honda 305, 350, and 450 twins... And let's not forget Yamaha's own XS650 twins and TT500 singles. Tehy all shook like paint-shakers in a mobile home during an earthquake. Let's face it, motorcycle riders are pretty spoiled by how smooth today's bikes are. ::025::

Do some riders feel uncomfortable or annoying vibes from their bikes? Probably so... They must or they wouldn't post about 'em. I will say I wonder why they bought a big-bore parallel-twin rigidly mounted in the frame if they were looking for turbine-like smoothness, but to each their own. I didn't expect a Gold Wing vibe experience when I bought my Super Tenere, just like I didn't when I bought my Honda, BMW, Ducati, Kawasaki, or Harley twins over the years.

That said, I've got an open mind, and folks in this thread like Roll_It_On and Sharealike seem to have done a lot of research and know what they're talking about... They may be on to something, and I'd like to see what they come up with. Like you it's not that big a deal to me at the moment, but it could end up a bit like the ECUnleashed re-flash, where you don't realize how much of an improvement there can be until you try it. I want to give these guys all the encouragement I can to continue their R&D. They may find something that helps all of us. So for Roll_It_On and Sharealike, as my Dad used to say...

Press On, Gentlemen! ::008::

Dallara


~

 

[Ticeman2]

The only type of vibration I've noticed is load related, totally expected I must say. Almost always fighting high head winds (25 mph + ) and always above 80 mph. If I ride with no gloves, my hands will get the tingles then. Gloves on, no issues. Calm days she's good to 100 mph with nothing but smooth operation. I don't like riding it much faster than that though, it's no FJR. Too much chassis pitch for me to enjoy slowing quickly to 65.

So, Roll it On, thanks for the update. I say develop it to your heart's content. Good luck. Please keep us in the loop.

 

[roll_it_on]

I will do my best to post up some pics and perhaps a video link in the next few days to perhaps better describe/show what I am referring to and working on. To be clear however I am not trying to eliminate the vibs from this bike in the sense of what a typical large displacement twin makes. I expect it to give you some feedback when you are on the gas and those big jugs are thumping away. I like that kind of vib and on that front this bike is actually quite smooth for what it is. Here is my frame of reference. I had a vstrom 1000 in the past that had a very similar harsh uncaratoristic vibration/knock right as it passed through the similar rpm range as my ST and others as well from reading the posts. It always felt very mechanical and I tried everything under the sun to sort it out (fuel,TB syncs, maps, etc) and to no avail. Fast forward several years and it has been determined that the cause of that strange issue in the clutch basket and it has been resolved based on improvements to the internal dampener. My son just bought a suzuki 1000 and it had the same crappy vibration right around 3200-3500 rpm as you ran it through that range. We had that basket modified and that bike is just awesome to ride now and the difference is night and day. Something you have to experience to know just what a transformation it is. You still feel the power pulses of the big twin when you run it up but it is much smoother and you don't get that crazy shake/vib at the low rpm no matter the load or the amount of throttle. This is what I am trying to see if there is a similar issue/solution for the ST. It is not a reliability issue at all so for those who are happy with how their bikes are performing now it is a non issue for sure. What has been done however already to my basket has improved this area of the bikes response and it is smoother throughout the upper rev range but the uncaratoristic knock is still there and that I am hoping to eliminate out of the bike so I can then say I have the perfect magic carpet for me ::001::

 

[60av8tor]

I've checked fueling a hundred times and this 'issue' is not fueling at all... Its just something mechanical in the motor somewhere..... no biggie... she is a great bike ! ::26::

My logical mind agrees with this statement, but why then would my reflash affect it? I have owned quite a few bikes in the past, and quite a few 'rough ones'. Not talking about overall roughness, just a spot 3-3.5k where the vibration hits - almost felt like a power band flat spot. I really do love this bike, but as someone else mentioned, it was the very first thing I noticed on my initial ride. The reflash all but removed it, and I really cannot explain why if it was solely a mechanical issue. My other love is flying, and I think of leaning an air-cooled Lycoming until it runs rough. No possibility of a lean spot 3-3.5k?

 

[fredz43]

I have the Gen 2 flash and although it is much better, I can still feel that bit of a rough spot while accelerating thru 3k or so. I have over 23,000 miles and got so used to it that I never thought about it anymore until this discussion came up. I did try applying the very slight pressure on the clutch lever while going thru the band there and certainly could tell the difference. I don't consider this a problem with my bike, but if it could be eliminated, it would make a great bike even better, in my opinion.

In any case, I find this very interesting and will be watching for updates.

 

[roll_it_on]

I have played with the fueling multiple times and have added/removed lots of fuel just to see what happens in this range and I am convinced it is mechanical. Fueling does effect the smoothness of the engine for sure. An unbalanced, poorly fueled motor would either accentuate or reduce the existing mechanical vibration.

 

[rotortech71]

I put the mini fuse clutch jumper in this morning just for my ride to work, to see how it affects this vibe. For my bike, it doesn't affect it at all. The off idle responsiveness is there, which is the main difference I notice with the CJM, but the 3000 to 3500rpm shudder remains. I don't know about others, maybe my bike just does it worse than most, but I can hear this shudder, not just feel it. It's an audible "garble", or "rumble" sound, if that makes any sense at all.

 

[triman11427]

Whats the theory behind the clutch basket and a specific rpm range causing a vibration? I'm not a mechanic but in my mind the bike is vibrating to some degree at all RPM's. Is it similar to a tire out of balance which vibrates at specific speeds?

 

[sharealike]

Whats the theory behind the clutch basket and a specific rpm range causing a vibration?

3000 to 3500rpm shudder

The clutch basket has a torsion damper built into the back. It helps smooth the take up of the clutch but the main function of this damper is to absorb the severe shock load of each fire of the engine so protecting the rest of the transmission and improving the general refinement of the engine while riding. Has some impact and at idle too. It works very hard causing a very small deflection of between one and six coil springs depending on the load on the engine. It seems that if unlucky when new or after a few thousand miles that the damping effect weakens. This allows a certain frequency of engine vibration to be felt through much of the bike which is harsher than if there was no damping at all. A combination of just the wrong engine speed, the rotating mass of the clutch assembly, engine and flywheel mass feels to amplify the engines usual vibration.

Applying gentle pressure to the clutch lever while passing through the vibration can make it disappear completely. Not so much pressure that the clutch slips. Just enough to where it might be about to slip. The temporary load of the throw out bearing on the pressure plate is known to stop the clutch vibrating so damping the unusual vibration.

The video below shows how a similar damper works in the clutch flywheel of a manual gearbox for turbocharged diesel engines. The dual masses of a motorcycle engine are the engine flywheel on the crank and the mass of the clutch (8lbs plus) geared to the crankshaft by the gear on the clutch basket. This gear in the basket holds the springs that you will see being loaded with each torque pulse of the engine as engine load increases. The damper in a bike engine typically has three stages provided by coil springs being loaded in parallel and the final overload stops to prevent damage to the springs.

Dual Mass Flywheel For Passenger Cars - How It Works -

 

[~TABASCO~]

To bad Hinson don't make a nice well performing billet basket.......... Need to make some calls.....

 

[sharealike]

To bad Hinson don't make a nice well performing billet basket.......... Need to make some calls.....

From what I see they only make the aluminium basket part of the units. And so far not one for the ST. Only time you should need that replacing is after 100,000 miles or some serious, serious clutch abuse - or perhaps if someone put steel tang plates in the aluminium clutch basket?

The bikes existing basket is perfectly strong enough and up to the job. To use these manufacturers after market baskets you still have to keep your original damper unit which is built into the large gear on the back that meshes with your crankshaft.

The fix is going to be in understanding exactly what's going wrong in the damper and sorting that out. I'm expecting it to be no more than a $250 USD modification including parts and labour.

 

[~TABASCO~]

From what I see they only make the aluminium basket part of the units. And so far not one for the ST. Only time you should need that replacing is after 100,000 miles or some serious, serious clutch abuse - or perhaps if someone put steel tang plates in the aluminium clutch basket?

The bikes existing basket is perfectly strong enough and up to the job. To use these manufacturers after market baskets you still have to keep your original damper unit which is built into the large gear on the back that meshes with your crankshaft.

The fix is going to be in understanding exactly what's going wrong in the damper and sorting that out. I'm expecting it to be no more than a $250 USD modification including parts and labour.

I know, I should have made myself more clear... What I should have said is Hinson made a high quality damper unit... When I have time, im going to pull mine out and make sure its up to spec. See if any of the springs differ from each other...

 

[sharealike]

I know, I should have made myself more clear... What I should have said is Hinson made a high quality damper unit... When I have time, im going to pull mine out and make sure its up to spec. See if any of the springs differ from each other...

That's interesting. The manufacturers spend no end of time with the clutch manufacturers to develop a damper to match the engine characteristics and state of tune. That's why they can start with these vibration problems when they go "off tune". Just like in the VStroms and SV its unlikely to be a spring weakening issue (six of them hidden inside) in the S10 as its cropping up too frequently at the same engine speed for those bikes affected. And the bikes are new after all. Most likely down to some simple and minor deterioration of the main structure which upsets the designed in phasing of the damper (phasing a bit like we have in good quality suspension units). Problem is likely to be the back of the basket, bearing between gear and hub of basket or shifting/wearing of the seats that the springs work against. The six springs (12 in the Suzuki SV) and length of the slots each one works in are deliberately different.

Just seen Hinson's dampers. For low capacity off road competition singles. What they call cushions are moulded Viton (hard synthetic oil and heat resistant rubber) blocks or rings doing the job of coil springs. Something like the S10's torque pulses will soon mince those. Now if they can develop a sprung unit on the lines of ones they make for some quads that might be good. They start at $700 USD though.

I'm still waiting for owners with displaced problem baskets to offer them up for strip and inspection. To be clear and keep that open mind we don't have enough evidence to say for certain the clutch basket is the cause. Only by modifying known problem baskets and finding it kills the vibration will we know there is some connection.

Please contact me at vibefreevstrom@yahoo.com

 

[~TABASCO~]

I think that's a GREAT point !! We DONT know that this is or could be an issue...... Good thing I have a five year warranty I guess.... ::003::

 

[sharealike]

manufacturers spend no end of time with the clutch manufacturers to develop a damper to match the engine characteristics and state of tune. Just like in the VStroms and SV its unlikely to be a spring weakening issue (six of them hidden inside) in the S10 as its cropping up too frequently at the same engine speed for those bikes affected. And the bikes are new after all. Most likely down to some simple and minor deterioration of the main structure which upsets the designed in phasing of the damper (phasing a bit like we have in good quality suspension units).

I'm still waiting for owners with displaced problem baskets to offer them up for strip and inspection. To be clear and keep that open mind we don't have enough evidence to say for certain the clutch basket is the cause. Only by modifying known problem baskets and finding it kills the vibration will we know there is some connection.

Please contact me at vibefreevstrom@yahoo.com

No longer waiting on baskets for strip and inspection. Spent some serious time with two open and ran them through many scenarios on my test rig to prove where the problem is - or is not. Major thanks are in order to the two owners who donated problem baskets.

Remember you read it here first. Please no abuse. I'm just the messenger here.

Well the engine designers might well have had the time with the clutch basket manufacturers but they built a vibrator into this torsion damper. My first thoughts before having one open were "most likely down to some simple and minor deterioration of the main structure which upsets the designed in phasing of the damper (phasing a bit like we have in good quality suspension units)".

Well what I can say is the design most certainly has a flaw. No wonder its cropping up so frequently at the same engine speed for the bikes affected. And as I was concerned before "the bikes are new after all" so it's not really a wear on poor manufacturing tolerances issue like I found in the Suzuki's. The flaw in these Yamahas upsets the designed in phasing of the damper under load. It's not dangerous or likely to break and leave owners stranded. But it certainly should never have been designed this way. We can take all the free play out of the associated bearings and those within the actual damper but a vibrating clutch basket is still going to be felt through the bike. Feathering the clutch lever as you pass through the vibration range is damping the baskets unwanted and self generated oscillations.

There is bound to be some difference between each bike due to slight variations in manufacturing tolerances and it's clear to me there is variation at assembly to the point where some are lucky, others not so. Particularly where weights acting on springs are concerned. One of these only has to vary slightly to have a significant impact on resonance and amplitude. Read also Frequency and Severity. There will also be some difference between one owners tolerance level and another.

This same design is in other Yamaha's. Perhaps it's just the large twin with offset (cross plane) crank pins that finds the problem more than before.

 

[rotortech71]

I've been watching to see when this topic pops back up. I was even thinking about sending a PM to you or Roll it On to see if any progress has been made. Are you thinking about designing a fix for this? From what I'm reading it sounds like it wouldn't be as easy to fix as the Suzukis were? Mine is one of the bikes that does this very bad, and would love to see a kit designed that fixes it. I was holding on to the small hope that it's fueling, because my S10 is down right now for the ECU reflash, but it doesn't sound like it.

 

[motoguy]

I've read all 7 pages of this with great intrest. From the day I got my bike it had a distinct vib/shutter what ever you wan't to call it at the 3k rpm range.
Ive been a heavy truck mech. for over 25 years and this topic reminds me of a cust that had a new truck and complained of noise and vib under load at a particular rpm range. Long story short was International was involved and I was the mech to do what they said(They wore white lab coats and I was the grunt to get dirty) we replaced eng mounts, cab mounts, exhaust and even a new clutch to still the same complaint. Then a man in a denim jacket and a International badge came in with his lap top comp and hooked up to the eng, loaded a program and in his words said "There were done." and left. Prob was fixed, eng ran smooth as silk and cust was happy. I don't know what was done and no one would tell me.
Seems that fuel delivery is what fixed it, as to me the prob was eng pulses causing the vib and noise. As others have stated that the ecu flash seemed to fix this would fuel delivery be an isue at all?
It's always good when someone gets the bug to find out what is actualy going on and to find the prob. Please keep up the good work and keep us informed.

 

[markjenn]

Care to share your test data and what you did? Making a blanket statement that the bike has a serious mechanical design flaw, saying you're only the "messenger", and then providing no further information strikes me as a bit of a drive-by shooting.

- Mark

 

[sharealike]

Care to share your test data and what you did? Making a blanket statement that the bike has a serious mechanical design flaw, saying you're only the "messenger", and then providing no further information strikes me as a bit of a drive-by shooting.

- Mark

The flaw is it vibrates. Not serious. Not going to let you down. More information as it unfolds when problem baskets get some miles on them.

 

[tpak]

The flaw is it vibrates. Not serious. Not going to let you down. More information as it unfolds when problem baskets get some miles on them.

You stated above that you put the problem baskets on your test rigs and that there is a flaw that you found. The previous poster asked for more detail. Clearly you have that or are you just trolling?

Another question. Are you the same individual that sells a solution for the Vstrom clutch basket issue? If so, you need to identify yourself as a vendor on this forum.