Vibration question

[roll_it_on]

I can say without a doubt that slight pressure on the clutch lever eliminates the 3,200 rpm shudder! I tested this many times on the way to work, in different gears, high load, low load and every way I could think to test the condition. Now, what does this mean?

Sharealike could probably explain it in more detail but the action of putting a slight pressure on the clutch lever is to create a splint or say third bearing at the end of the basket (closest to the engine case) to stabilize it as it moves through this rpm band. On the vstroms the excess clearance in the clutch basket inner hub would translate to a wobble or "out of round" at the end of the disks/strings etc. and create vibration. The unsecured inner damper plates and springs where also free to move into an out of round condition and create additional noise/issues. With the mods made on the basket it made a world of difference on my old vstrom. I am about ready to remove the clutch basket on mine and open it up to see what is going on with it and if it shares similar design issues as the vstrom. My ST does the shudder pretty bad and is annoying to me. In my opinion this bike would be a 10 out of 10 without this issue so I want to see if can be designed out.

 

[AlsoRan]

I have the shudder as well and pulling the clutch helps, but what is strange is that it does not do it for the first few miles on the first ride of the day. The bike is perfectly smooth. It makes me think that the oil not being up to temperature has something to do with it, such as when the oil temp fully warms up it's flowing better and acting differently. Does this happen with yours? If so it may be interesting to run a thicker oil or perhaps a synthetic to see what happens.

 

[sharealike]

I have the shudder as well and pulling the clutch helps, but what is strange is that it does not do it for the first few miles on the first ride of the day. The bike is perfectly smooth. It makes me think that the oil not being up to temperature has something to do with it, such as when the oil temp fully warms up it's flowing better and acting differently. Does this happen with yours? If so it may be interesting to run a thicker oil or perhaps a synthetic to see what happens.

Similar experiences with the shudder in the Suzukis. Not reported often but two possible explanations.

1 - this damper built into the back of the clutch basket, which causes the shudder has some internal friction. A steel plate, the same diameter as the steel gear, has to slide on the face of the gear. This sliding back and forth of up to a 1/4 inch with each fire of the engine could be affected by slight changes in the level of friction. Think how two lubricated 6 inch diameter steel rings might slide differently against each other as the oil temperature increases. The steel plate also works loose on the back of the basket in those that shudder which again could be affected by changes in the oils lubricity. A few clutch basket designs don't have the steel plate trapped between gear and basket. The gear rubs directly on the aluminum.

2 - the clutch basket is made of aluminum. The boss it turns the 1/4 inch on is steel. The bearing between the two which sits in the boss is about 2 inches in diameter. The aluminum will expand much more than the steel so the gap at this hub will be small until the engine warms up. Just the extra play once hot and expanded a little might be enough to allow the basket to vibrate as roll-it-on explains in his post « on: 13 April 2013, 14:49:44 »


picture worth a thousand words and all that - exploded view of the problem damper in the Suzukis.

exploded view of a complete clutch to explain where the damper sits in the whole sysytem

 

[sharealike]

Looking into the assembled clutch basket shown above from the left. Gear hub works loose in aluminum basket and the Inner Spring Retaining Plate clicks about. Please note this is a relatively extreme version so the movements can be seen. This bike must have ridden like a jack hammer.
6 Inner plate loose.MP4

 

[roll_it_on]

Interesting update is that my son just recently purchased an 06 DL1000 Vstrom with 19K miles on it and it is doing the chudder thing quite well. He was in the garage the other night pulling his basket out to have it repaired. I have been planning on pulling the basket on my ST in order to do some investigation etc. as I believe this is what gives the bike that mechanical shudder and vib in the 3K zone. I have a stock replacement on the way to eliminate down time while I play with the existing basket. The interesting thing was to compare the two bikes side to side with their guts hanging out. First of all I have to say having replaced a few clutch baskets on suzuki's for both myself and a few buddies in the past and now with the Yamaha what a wonderful change in how easy the job is ::012:: No water pump/coolant to deal with and I didn't even need to drain the oil as it is above the level of oil in the sump on its side stand. Super easy job to get at the clutch!!

Another very interesting things is comparing the play in the baskets while they are still in place with the drive gear engaged. The video above shows how much play and slop there can be is in the plan of travel/drive with a worn basket. I could take the vstroms basket and move it back and forth several degrees by hand. Once repaired it is not possible to do that. The basket on my ST was just as bad with just a little over 5K miles. I took a video of the movement but not sure how to post something like that. I could move it back and forth enough to make quite a knock without the drive gear moving. A couple of the springs where also very loose with quite a bit of free play. Next is to open it up and see what lurks inside and if there are any opportunities. I know fixing this play on the vstroms make a world of difference in both vibration and removing the chudder.

 

[AlsoRan]

Stange thing happend to mine - last week I changed the oil and the vibration stopped. Then I went on a short trip and about 200 miles in it did it once on an uphill pull and after that nothing. Not totally convinced yet it's fixed but will see.

 

[sharealike]

I have to say having replaced a few clutch baskets on suzuki's for both myself and a few buddies in the past and now with the Yamaha what a wonderful change in how easy the job is ::012:: No water pump/coolant to deal with and I didn't even need to drain the oil as it is above the level of oil in the sump on its side stand. Super easy job to get at the clutch!!

They were that easy on the earlier 1000 Suzuki Vtwin in TLS and TLR with their own cover. Larger clutch in the later Vstrom and SV so whole side of the engine has to come off.

Another very interesting things is comparing the play in the baskets while they are still in place with the drive gear engaged. The video above shows how much play and slop there can be is in the plan of travel/drive with a worn basket. I could take the vstroms basket and move it back and forth several degrees by hand. Once repaired it is not possible to do that. The basket on my ST was just as bad with just a little over 5K miles. I took a video of the movement but not sure how to post something like that. I could move it back and forth enough to make quite a knock without the drive gear moving. A couple of the springs where also very loose with quite a bit of free play. Next is to open it up and see what lurks inside and if there are any opportunities. I know fixing this play on the vstroms make a world of difference in both vibration and removing the chudder.

Would love to see that video. I load video to youtube and then link to it in the threads. Email it if you like and I will try to post here if you prefer. Will try below with existing youtube video as a test to prove same works here.

Even the modified baskets and brand new baskets have five springs that are free to move. Depends where the damper in the basket comes to rest as to what feels free or tight. The spring rate rises as the damper defects bringing all the springs into play only at full load. Don't try shims to make them tight. Just busts the springs up over time because they compress beyond their elastic limit and it concentrates the load onto just three springs. Trust me.

Is the manufacturers mark the same? FCC? How similar is the design?

Dual Mass Flywheel for cars movie below explains how the springs are not all in play at the same time. Some will always be free with no load and shows how there will be some free play for idle damping.
OUR BIKE DAMPERS HAVE THREE SPRING STAGES, PLUS AN IDLE STAGE AND A LOCKED UP STAGE. auto shown here has two plus lock up where the line of the graph is vertical at each end of the delection.
[youtube]v=MfNjARZc5Wo&feature=related[/youtube]
Dual Mass Flywheel For Passenger Cars - How It Works -

 

[donaldb]

Re: Vibration question

Bump

Has anyone had any progress/info on this vibration theory?

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Missing Link]

I'd like to know if a solution has been found as well. I'm another lucky S10/massager owner that has the exact same vibration symptoms as roll it on and ramblin, including the elimination of the vibration by slightly depressing the clutch. I like the bike, but this vibration is bad enough that I'll have to get something else for long trips if a fix isn't found.

 

[sharealike]

I modify and re-engineer clutch basket dampers to address this very kind of vibration.

My expertise has been gained with the Suzuki SV1000 and DL1000 VStrom engines. Lucky thing with these was having so many of the vibrating baskets that owners removed sent here for a strip and full internal inspection. Any displaced problem baskets out there?

Do the complete strip and show what is going wrong. Perhaps modify and send out for trial by an owner.

 

[roll_it_on]

Update:

The basket has been out and disassembled to find out what is going on inside. The inner spring pockets are cast into the aluminum of the basket and then steel liners (as shown) to prevent the springs from eating into the aluminum. These liners are significantly loose in the pockets and create slop as the gear engages the springs under load and would wear the aluminum over time. This is an area to be improved upon much like on the vstroms factory basket but this certainly has a different design then the Suzuki. I will be installing a modified basket into the bike over this weekend to see how the improvements effect the vibration in the 3K zone.

 

[sharealike]

Hi all

Looks very lightly built compared with the VStroms I see stripped open most days. The ST pulls harder low down and is 200 cc larger too They staggered the crank pins to make it feel like a V twin too so this clutch torsion damper gets a battering for certain.

Problem with this one here is each segment needs mounting in the exact right spot and they are made of thin tin compared to the VStroms 3mm plate. I suspect there will be much more going off than just the segments chattering about once it starts to vibrate.

 

[snakebitten]

Vibration question

What am I missing?

The Yamaha clutch design is inferior?
To? The Vstrom?

Been on the forum from nearly the beginning. Missed nary a post in the last 2 years. Don't remember clutch issues. Worldwide quietness, in fact. (Actually, one clutch was burned up in the Colorado mountains last week)

Not saying there couldn't be some kind of cool improvement figured out. But seems like we need a better headlight harness connection, or maybe a super magic spoke coating.

At the risk of jinxing my bike, my clutch is sweet. 30K miles and super slick.

Must be a better design than you make it sound. No offense.

Edit: after re-reading the whole thread, perhaps I should be a little less "sensitive" to the last couple of posts. And, perhaps there is a solution to whatever the ailment is that 3 or 4 folks seem to have with their Teneres.

I shall sit over in my corner and have an open mind.

 

[roll_it_on]

There is nothing wrong with the operation of the clutch whatsoever on my bike. It works smooth as silk. What I am trying to sort out is the harsh engine vibration that this bike has rolling on the throttle through the 3-3.5K rpm band. Several comments have been made by other riders that their bikes do the same thing and that it reminds them of the vstroms that they used to own which are notorious for having this same harsh vibration. It has been proven on the vstrom to be related to the design of the clutch basket and its internal damper mechanism. Once fixed it transforms the bike in the low rpm range and smooths it right out. My ST (and others as have commented) responds very much like this in the low rpm range. This is what I am trying to sort out. Opening up the damper mechanism on the ST shows a similar issue with loose inner plates as with the vstrom. The clutch functions just fine.

 

[snakebitten]

Vibration question

I have edited my post above.

 

[tc9988]

Re: Vibration question

What am I missing?

The Yamaha clutch design is inferior?
To? The Vstrom?

Been on the forum from nearly the beginning. Missed nary a post in the last 2 years. Don't remember clutch issues. Worldwide quietness, in fact. (Actually, one clutch was burned up in the Colorado mountains last week)

Not saying there couldn't be some kind of cool improvement figured out. But seems like we need a better headlight harness connection, or maybe a super magic spoke coating.

At the risk of jinxing my bike, my clutch is sweet. 30K miles and super slick.

Must be a better design than you make it sound. No offense.

Edit: after re-reading the whole thread, perhaps I should be a little less "sensitive" to the last couple of posts. And, perhaps there is a solution to whatever the ailment is that 3 or 4 folks seem to have with their Teneres.

I shall sit over in my corner and have an open mind.

you either have not read almost all the posts or can not count. The "vibration" in the 3200+/- rpm range has been a recurring complaint and I'm pretty sure if you pay attention you will also feel it on your bike

 

[snakebitten]

Vibration question

I'm not sure you can categorize all "vibration" complaints to this specific (very specific) thread/subject.

Or put another way, all those posts that I have indeed read, that have included the word "vibration", I suggest are not one in the same.

However, I amended my statement. And I will have an open mind on this subject. If there is something to this clutch theory, this thread will live on with or without me.

And finally, I must have one of those bikes that doesn't seem to have an unusual, or at least, unpleasant vibration. I have a lot of bikes. Several with 2 pistons. (KTM & VTR) None of them would be mistaken as a VFR type smooth.

 

[markjenn]

I don't know of a parallel twin with 600cc pistons which doesn't vibe a bit at these low RPMs. I consider it more/less just the character of the motor and if it only occurs at big throttle openings, then I consider it lugging.

Having said this, perhaps some of the motors do it worse than others and perhaps some have a serious problem. Still think attributing it to the clutch basket is a long shot though. Good luck with the investigation regardless.

- Mark

 

[sharealike]

Re: Vibration question

What am I missing?

The Yamaha clutch design is inferior?
To? The Vstrom?

At the risk of jinxing my bike, my clutch is sweet. 30K miles and super slick.

Must be a better design than you make it sound. No offense.

Edit: after re-reading the whole thread, perhaps I should be a little less "sensitive" to the last couple of posts. And, perhaps there is a solution to whatever the ailment is that 3 or 4 folks seem to have with their Teneres.

I shall sit over in my corner and have an open mind.

No offence taken at all. I got very thick skin after pointing out and proving what was going wrong in eight years worth of VStrom production.

No suggestion the ST clutch damper is inferior at all. Manufacturers have to constantly try new and more efficient ways to do things. Keeps them ahead of the competition and what drives bike engineering development. Only problem is even with their mighty engineering weight they don't know how durable (long lasting) those new ways are going to turn out. We make that durability test for them and most the time we prove they got things right.

My concern here is that its so lightly built and compact in it's design there might not be enough material or space to make a durable modification. These things run up to 4,000 rpm and work in the most hostile vibrating environment, deflecting with every single fire of the engine.

Has any open minded, far sighted owner (perhaps in Europe) got a displaced basket to send me to measure up and poke about inside?

From what I see roll_it_on is close to proving one way or the other if the damper in the basket is the source of his vibration. I just have a hunch there is a safe and durable fix for these without even stripping them down.

 

[Ticeman2]

I am doing some investigation regarding a shudder/vibration that my bike gets consistently around 2800 - 3300rpm that I now believe is coming from the clutch. The reason I say this is due to a couple of things. I owned a vstrom 1K in the past and ended up replacing the clutch basket with a modified unit that was re-designed to deal with the well know chudder/vibration issue on those bikes. It worked great and eliminated that issue and smoothed out the bike across the entire rev range. Fast forward several years to my new S10 and it demonstrates an all to familiar symptom as the big Vee. A certain RPM range in any gear and the engine gets a gremlin and produces an un-characteristic vibration. If I put just enough pressure on the clutch but not enough as to make it slip it is as smooth as butter through this rpm range. I do not believe it is fuel related as I have changed the fuel curve in this region significantly (both rich and lean) with no effects and the vibration appears to be certainly mechanical.

I would love to know from others if their bike produces and or demonstrates this same symptom. I have been in contact with the guy who designed the basket fix for the Suzuki bikes to discuss if this could be a possibility for the Yamaha. The basket design appears to be very similar between the Tenere and the Vstrom and based on a preliminary review and discussion he believes they are sources from the same supplier. I plan on purchasing a new basket from Yamaha and do a swap out on my bike and will then have the existing one opened up to determine the design, possible cause and perhaps a repair/rework. I love the bike but if this issue could be removed I would be extremely pleased so it is worth it to me to pursue this a bit. I have read some posts about vibration issues in some bikes and perhaps this could be a part of the issue. Any feedback based on your experience/bike is appreciated.

Have you ever ridden a Ducati? Not trying to be a smart ass here, just asking the question. What you're feeling is the power pulses from the engine. All Teneres make this. By slipping the clutch, you are simply partially disengaging the engine from the trans and damping out the pulse.