Vibration question

[sharealike]

I'm not running Yamaha or any other manufacturer down at all over these vibration issues. The big four manufacturers in Japan are renown for their quality management. Point I wished to make is some issues get attention from manufacturers because their is clear evidence, legislation or perhaps a safety issue. Others missed or don't get the attention they deserve because there is a lack of evidence. Manufacturers employ third parties who check what "the web" and public opinion says about their products for certain. Some spend a fortune on this which says how much they value their reputation. I sympathise with them as still need a way of sorting out the hard fact from the fiction.

 

[snakebitten]

Quote from Yamaha Canada Website:

Revised, heavy duty clutch uses 9 friction and 8 steel plates. The damper system has been changed from springs to a rubber type to reduce noise and vibration.

Not sure it's any better, but they are making a change to the basket. Somebody is listening.

 

[Koinz]

I wonder if the serviceable part # will be updated for the 2012 models.

 

[realshelby]

I ordered a new ST clutch basket back in December to do some development and testing with. Got a notice a about two weeks ago that it is back ordered from the factory and the expected shipping date is January 22nd. I am tempted to cancel the order because I am suspicious it will be one of the "new" designs with rubber dampers.

If it is the new style I won't really have any use for it and I don't really want to tie up the money for nothing. But it would be interesting to see if it has a revision/updates.

Speaking for myself and what I have learned while modifying these current baskets, I don't think the steel spring is the problem. If the entire casting is not revised I will be very interested in how they hold up and perform.

 

[sharealike]

Quote from Yamaha Canada Website:

Revised, heavy duty clutch uses 9 friction and 8 steel plates. The damper system has been changed from springs to a rubber type to reduce noise and vibration.

Not sure it's any better, but they are making a change to the basket. Somebody is listening.

They certainly have the right words in that latest marketing speak to address the concerns in this thread. Be interesting to see what actually materialises as an engineering fix. This is the Suzuki VStrom scenario all over again but their fixes proved to have made no difference over time. Hoping you do better Yamaha if listening.

The clutch already has 9 friction and 8 steel plates so make of that what we like. There's already a big chunk of rubber type material they call a damper in the clutch housing. Puzzle for me having proved the cure is the thing in the clutch currently making the noise and vibration is not the springs. It's the parts they work against. See the video. Skip to 5 min's to avoid the pre-amble and see the actual loose bits.

ST Clutch torsion damper faults and deterioration

I wonder if the serviceable part # will be updated for the 2012 models.

I think what ever it will be backwards compatible if they actually have come up with a new basket. Only something the same dimensions and using the same size clutch plates is going to fit the current space. The cost and scale of the job to change these out round the world say's it's unlikely to be offered free of charge or under warranty for older bike's. Does not fail, break or get dangerous so no arm up their back so to speak. Just extremely annoying to some when they know it's there and once the engine is warm you can't ride through without feeling it.

Current basket is expensive to buy and I guess any new item will cost the same or more when/if they get it out the door. If "they are listening" and a new basket is going into production, they will have pulled production of the old unit for certain and likely pulled back all in the distribution system to return to their supplier before they fall on their swords. After all would you buy a new basket having seen the video? We have much older bikes on the road here in Europe that are long out of warranty. All this suggesting demand for my re-design of the current baskets internals and stiffeners will continue at a price worth doing. And dare I say they should have a longer service life than anything with a "rubber type material".

Later edit - forgot to mention. Have made a set of instructions for remove and refit of the clutch basket. Pictures and diagrams to help owners considering having the basket fixed decide if they can do that part themselves. It's an easy job - don't even drain the oil. Will be available on request to my email address until I get them loaded somewhere for owners to download.

 

[Roadster]

Now we can see that Yamaha have changed the part they call "Primary driven gear comp.". 2010-2013 it has item number 23P-16150-00.
2014 it is 2BS-16150-00.

http://www.yamaha-motor.eu/uk/services/online-parts-catalogue/index.aspx

 

[roll_it_on]

That is very interesting as it clearly shows a different configuration to the back of the clutch basket and it's damper assembly. It also looks like the rest of the parts/pieces are the same and the clutch basket is what has been upgraded. This is very good news that Yamaha apparently has at least followed the concerns and has made an upgrade. I would love to get a new unit and try it out compared to the modified one I am using now to see how their redesign works in comparison. I can tell you however that having the vibrations from the basket out of the bike has transformed it for me. It is smoother at cruise and roll on from any rpm range and has made running up in the higher rev range much better. I wonder how long it will be before the part becomes available for purchase as the 2014's aren't even in the show rooms yet........

 

[sharealike]

Thank you for the update on the modified basket roll_it_on.

I contacted a Yamaha dealer here in Europe to buy a basket by the old part number for a 2010 to 2013 build.

Response - "3 to 4 weeks from order placement (stocked in Japan only).. Once ordered can not be cancelled"..

For good measure I also tried to buy a 2014 basket by the new part number for a 2010 to 2013 build bike.

Response - "After speaking to Yamaha the later part number is not available to buy as a part as they are putting what they have on production bikes now.. They also stated please use only what is listed for your exact model"..

They told me in a subsequent conversation that "Yamaha would not comment on backwards compatibility".

There's no knowing how long this state of affairs will last. Cost for the old part is £660 GB Pounds or €800 Euros. Must be less in the US but availability is the key. And the new unit will be set up to perform best with the revisions to the rest of the engine for 2014. I agree it should fit as the interconnected parts remain the same.

 

[Red dust]

Sounds like it would be easier to trade the whole thing in for a 2014 bike :-o

 

[realshelby]

I just got a brand new basket for S 10's and it is the old or first generation design. I waited a few weeks on it.

 

[sharealike]

Sounds like it would be easier to trade the whole thing in for a 2014 bike :-o

Expensive option when compared to modification of the older 2010 to 2013 clutch basket units. These behave exactly as the manufacturers intended after my modification. I have many others on the way for this following the great results reported by roll_it_on and ianf.

Update: I just got back in from a much longer test ride after installing the modified clutch basket I received from John (Sharealike) a few days ago. I am very pleased with the outcome for sure. The bike now runs like it should and what I had hoped for since I purchased it. The annoying vibration this bike made in the 2800 to 3500 rpm range when rolling on the throttle has been my only real grip with this otherwise fantastic machine. I have to say based on my ride today through the hills (trying every which way to make it chudder) that it is sorted now and what a pleasure to have that gone. It is noticeably smoother throughout the rpm range and in sport mode rolling on the throttle at any rpm or load does not produce the same level of vibration that it did before. I am a happy camper. ::012::

I would love to get a new unit and try it out compared to the modified one I am using now to see how their redesign works in comparison. I can tell you however that having the vibrations from the basket out of the bike has transformed it for me. It is smoother at cruise and roll on from any rpm range and has made running up in the higher rev range much better.

+1 roll it on,as you know ive been testing one of john.s clutch baskets here in the uk.ive found the latest version to be excellent.All of the clutch vibration has been cured in my bike.I agree with you,this clutch vibration has been spoiling an excellent bike. I can now enjoy,well,when the weather gets better, Ian

I have a full set of instructions with pictures for remove and refit to send out by email. Include packing instructions if sending off for modification. These are free for anyone considering changing the clutch basket which ever route they might take to get rid of these vibrations.

I will soon have a 2010 to 2013 clutch basket exchange service running for sub 20,000 mile bikes. Might be extended to 30,000 miles when I have stripped more of the higher mileage baskets for the sharelike modification. This is purely for those who can't live with the down time.

Much like I found in the Suzuki's, having the basket mod done early in the baskets life is going to make them last much longer as saves the internal deterioration from ever getting a hold.

Sharealike - John

 

[autoteach]

I pulled my basket last night to send to Barnett. For anyone who hasn't done this type of work before and is worried about difficulty, the s10 has to be one of the easiest to work on. you will need the 5 mm allen to pull the cover bolts, a 10mm socket to remove the clutch spring bolts, and a 30mm socket to remove the clutch basket nut. That is all you will need. You should get a gasket for replacement and a new nut for the basket as it is the lock type that you peen the edge. As for my basket which has nearly 25,000 miles, I can see why it vibrates. The wear on the 3rd stage spring seat area, as well as the radial slop that they have, is beyond specification easily.

 

[EricV]

I pulled my basket last night to send to Barnett. For anyone who hasn't done this type of work before and is worried about difficulty, the s10 has to be one of the easiest to work on. you will need the 5 mm allen to pull the cover bolts, a 10mm socket to remove the clutch spring bolts, and a 30mm socket to remove the clutch basket nut. That is all you will need. You should get a gasket for replacement and a new nut for the basket as it is the lock type that you peen the edge. As for my basket which has nearly 25,000 miles, I can see why it vibrates. The wear on the 3rd stage spring seat area, as well as the radial slop that they have, is beyond specification easily.

Worth mentioning is that you also need something to hold the clutch boss while you loosen/tighten the 30mm nut. Loosening can easily be done with an impact wrench. You can usually get to the specified torque setting with the bike in 6th gear when installing the nut, but the clutch tool is handy.

 

[Koinz]

I pulled my basket last night to send to Barnett. For anyone who hasn't done this type of work before and is worried about difficulty, the s10 has to be one of the easiest to work on. you will need the 5 mm allen to pull the cover bolts, a 10mm socket to remove the clutch spring bolts, and a 30mm socket to remove the clutch basket nut. That is all you will need. You should get a gasket for replacement and a new nut for the basket as it is the lock type that you peen the edge. As for my basket which has nearly 25,000 miles, I can see why it vibrates. The wear on the 3rd stage spring seat area, as well as the radial slop that they have, is beyond specification easily.

Just curious, Are they using yours as a model for others or are they going to re-work yours as a repair :question:

I haven't been able to ride too much because of the crappy weather, but I did go out a couple of times and the vibrations from my are virtually non-existant at this point. I assume a better test is when things warm up outside.
I head Realshelby work his magic and it seems pretty good at this point. Will know more as I put more miles on it.

 

[autoteach]

Mine is going to be an R&D item that they can see the ill effects of 25k miles. I would say that it is not up to par.

 

[sharealike]

I pulled my basket last night to send to Barnett. For anyone who hasn't done this type of work before and is worried about difficulty, the s10 has to be one of the easiest to work on. you will need the 5 mm allen to pull the cover bolts, a 10mm socket to remove the clutch spring bolts, and a 30mm socket to remove the clutch basket nut. That is all you will need. You should get a gasket for replacement and a new nut for the basket as it is the lock type that you peen the edge. As for my basket which has nearly 25,000 miles, I can see why it vibrates. The wear on the 3rd stage spring seat area, as well as the radial slop that they have, is beyond specification easily.

Yes its an easy job. Don't have to drain the oil or even break into the cooling system. Please note Yamaha go to great lengths to give both a loosening and tightening sequence for the many cover bolts. IMHO its over cautious, but they might know it can distort easily. Full set of instructions for remove and refit for download here - http://www.vibefreev.com/downloads.htm - please note the rest of the site caters entirely for the Suzuki's.

Wear on the ends of those three final stage springs looks bad. All eight of the s10 used baskets I had open and re-engineered to date showed this. But remember most of the time you are riding at normal loads or even using medium levels of acceleration, these three springs are not under load so not likely to be the cause of the vibration. Centrifugal force takes them out to rest firmly against their windows and they don't even rattle as it all rotates at about half engine rpm. The free movement of phased springs was mistaken as the problem by some trying to do a short cut fix in the Suzuki's.

One of the eight s10 baskets I stripped and fixed had little more than delivery mileage before needing the work. The rest right up to and beyond 25,000 miles all had the same radial slop. They are designed and intended to be that way from new. My re-engineering, which has seen over six months development and five prototypes is specifically designed to address that wear issue along with the rest of the problems.

Delivery Mileage Super Tenere Clutch Basket

 

[~TABASCO~]

Just curious, Are they using yours as a model for others or are they going to re-work yours as a repair :question:

I haven't been able to ride too much because of the crappy weather, but I did go out a couple of times and the vibrations from my are virtually non-existant at this point. I assume a better test is when things warm up outside.
I head Realshelby work his magic and it seems pretty good at this point. Will know more as I put more miles on it.

Barnett is developing a new basket for the Tenere. It will also go along with there current spring conversion pressure plate.

 

[autoteach]

I can't wait for a new basket. I know that it will help, and I want the coil spring pressure plate for the feel. Sending out this PM to Barnett.

 

[roll_it_on]

I would love to have the new basket that has been designed for the 2014 model in my hands to check it out and see what they have done differently with the rubber damper assembly vs. the coil springs. They certainly are suggesting in their 2014 model promotion that it is to better control vibration etc. If would be cool to compare the two in operation. What Barnett comes up with will be interesting as well. Cools stuff for sure.

 

[sharealike]

Barnett is developing a new basket for the Tenere. It will also go along with there current spring conversion pressure plate.

Any news from them on the basket yet. They have been at it for months and only now taken a used one from autoteach for R&D. They had a ready made pressure plate coil spring conversion because the spring is the same as the FJR which they have made for some time.#

and I want the coil spring pressure plate for the feel.

Check the cushion spring and its seat if feel is missing from the clutch. Its the first bit against the boss of the clutch hub. Nothing to do with the pressure springs. If the cushion spring weakens or wears quicker than the number two friction plate, the clutch will lose much of its feel. Becomes an on and off switch rather than a controllable clutch.