HARD START

[Cycledude]

Yes that happened to mine about a week ago and fortunately because of reading about that happening to others on this site I quit cranking and checked the key position , it wasn’t completely in the on position but when I turned it to the right spot it fired up like normal. The key switch location ain’t the greatest and because of how my GPS is mounted that also interferes a little with turning the key on. Reading about it on this forum may very well have prevented a hard start situation from happening ! my 2018 Tenere has 17,000 miles and so far no hard start. Hard start only happened to my previous 2013 twice in 50,000 miles but this experience does make me wonder if maybe the key wasn’t turned to the exact right position and that’s what actually caused the problem.

I once thought I had a hard start issue on my wife's 2017 Tenere. Turned out there is a position on the key where you can turn it and it does not go into the detent. It allows the electrical to come on and the starter to spin, but the bike will not start. Happened when we were 6000 miles from home and I was getting nervous. Fired right up when the key went into the detent.

 

[Riteris]

I once thought I had a hard start issue on my wife's 2017 Tenere. Turned out there is a position on the key where you can turn it and it does not go into the detent. It allows the electrical to come on and the starter to spin, but the bike will not start. Happened when we were 6000 miles from home and I was getting nervous. Fired right up when the key went into the detent.

Thanks for this. I am really hoping for something this simple. I will get on it today.

 

[Riteris]

Well, that did not work.

 

[Riteris]

I have been keeping the battery I installed in March on a trickle charger. I attempted the start just now and I heard the starter complaining after a maybe 5 second crank... like there was not enough starting power.

In the past, I could get the bike going by jump starting it with a second battery. I am wondering if I have a bad (Yuasa) battery? Bad trickle charger?

I should have an Antigravity battery in hand tomorrow.

 

[Riteris]

So, I installed the Antigravity battery and the bike started right up!

I did notice it tends to work better when I am shorts and sandals or work shoes as opposed to ATGATT. We will see tomorrow if maybe the riding gear was the problem.

 

[2daMax]

A very good article about hard starts, why it happens n how it is fixed. The WOT method is known as Clear Flood mode where the ECU disables the fuel injectors in order to dry the plugs.

Seems like Honda cars is like the Tenèrè.

A Flooded Engine | EricTheCarGuy

There is something else that can cause a loss of compression that does not involve a mechanical failure. Your cylinders can actually lose compression due to too much fuel getting into the cylinder.

www.ericthecarguy.com

I have a hard start issue that is yet to be fixed n took my other bike to work this morning. Own fault as I made a device that I think advances the timing of the plugs firing. Over time, it got harder to start. Last 2 starts ago, it was WOT to get it started. This morning, WOT didn't help. It felt like catching on but poof. Will update once I have it started. Will remove the device n EFI fuse to clear out the fuel first before anything else.

 

[2daMax]

Here is an update. I got it to start!

I realized the battery charger provide unlimited power to the starter motor so it was use to help the start up process. I removed the EFI fuse. Reduce CO settings from 7 to 5 n removed the ignition booster device I made. The first simulated start expelled a lot fuel as I can smell it pretty strong. Subsequent ones were also expelling fuel but was getting lesser. By the 5th time, no fuel smell. I let it rest 1 min between each start attempt.

Replaced the EFI fuse. Kill switch off. Key On. Kill switch On. Start it. It didn't catch, just a poof sound of misfire but I quickly WOT. Started right up. Let idle till temps reach 65C. I think the carbon fouling on the plugs make it hard to spark.

 

[Tenman]

What is the conclusion of this?

 

[jrusell]

I am glad to hear to got it sorted. I just wanted to make one comment as I hear one thing stated over and over again which I believe is misunderstood by some people.

As everyone knows our bike is throttle by wire and it doesn't matter what you do to the throttle, ultimately the ecu is making the decision how much to open the throttle based on the program installed.
This is also true when starting the bike. It doesn't matter how much you open the throttle the butterflies do not open fully. They do move, but they just barely crack open. Hard to tell by eye buy my guess is maybe 3-5% max. It is not until the bike is actually running that they respond and start to open.

I am sure the small crack of the throttle gets a bit more air in there to help clear the rich condition, but do not be confused in thinking the butterflies are open, they are not.

 

[jbrown]

The supposition is that there is special ECU code that recognizes the "full throttle" input and does something special to the startup mixture. I've seen microsquirt code that does that, but I don't know if Yamaha/Denso did that or not.

 

[Sierra1]

Either or, apparently it's the only thing that works. As long as I let her wake up completely, she never gives me a problem.

 

[ballisticexchris]

So far so good for me. I turn on the key and let everything cycle before hitting the start button. Not sure if that's the proper way? It works.....

 

[Jlq1969]

As everyone knows our bike is throttle by wire and it doesn't matter what you do to the throttle, ultimately the ecu is making the decision how much to open the throttle based on the program installed.
This is also true when starting the bike. It doesn't matter how much you open the throttle the butterflies do not open fully. They do move, but they just barely crack open. Hard to tell by eye buy my guess is maybe 3-5% max. It is not until the bike is actually running that they respond and start to open

I'm confused. How is it that the ecu "prevents" the butterflies from doing what the "wire" commands, if the axis of the butterflies is commanded by the "wire"

 

[jbrown]

There is a servo motor controlling the butterflies. The throttle cable just moves a sensor, and the ECU drives the servo motor.

 

[jrusell]

The only time I had a start issue is because I didn't wait and let everything cycle.
I now always stop the bike using the kill switch, never the the key.
I always wait 4-5 seconds and let the system do it's normal startup cycle, never touch the gas and it fires up perfect every time. Of course the stock battery has been upgraded to a 14 instead of the 12. The 12 is just too weak for this bike.

 

[jrusell]

I'm confused. How is it that the ecu "prevents" the butterflies from doing what the "wire" commands, if the axis of the butterflies is commanded by the "wire"
View attachment 69261

Here is a clip showing what I mean. They only open when the bike actually starts running. Before and during cranking they are closed. When she fires they pop open at which time I release the throttle and they slam shut again.

 

[Tenman]

I already posted this once a while back. After my last warm hard start a couple of years ago or so. I was pissed. I came home and cycled my key 10 times with throttle closed. Then cycled 10 more with throttle open. Fired right up. Head scratcher. I’ve been carrying a lithium jumper for years for this shit. Never hit the starter and let off until it’s fully started

 

[Checkswrecks]

A note to the newer owners because it hasn't been stated in a while:

"Hard start" was an ongoing problem with the 2010-2013 bikes. Anything having to do with the Gen2 bikes is totally different and almost always falls into the usual issues related to electronic fuel injection and low battery state.

 

[Riteris]

A note to the newer owners because it hasn't been stated in a while:

"Hard start" was an ongoing problem with the 2010-2013 bikes. Anything having to do with the Gen2 bikes is totally different and almost always falls into the usual issues related to electronic fuel injection and low battery state.

I cannot disagree with this conclusion but my experience was troubling.

I replaced the battery with the factory recommended battery (12, not the 14) and had issues. (Only in researching the problem did I find out that I should have bought the 14.)

Ultimately (I hope) going with an Antigravity lithium battery is the longterm solution to getting my bike started.

I am still left wondering what the (UNUSUAL) issues were that kept the stock replacement battery from working.

(Anybody want to buy a lightly used Yuasa battery?)

 

[Jlq1969]

Here is a clip showing what I mean. They only open when the bike actually starts running. Before and during cranking they are closed. When she fires they pop open at which time I release the throttle and they slam shut again.

The video clarified for me, during and before the start, the butterflies are blocked and only controlled by the electric servo. But after the start ..... the butterflies are still controlled by the servo? ... or do they come to be controlled by the hand throttle? ..... I ask because I do not find sense in the union between the axis of butterflies and wire