HARD START

WJBertrand

Ventura Highway
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This cell balanced charging thing on LiPo still has me on the fringe. Very pricey to correctly charge individual cells with a battery that’s capable. I hope technology can catch up.
So most manufacturers, including Scorpion, claim their LiFePO batteries have an internal battery management system that takes care of this. I’m thinking some of the earlier players (Shorai?) didn’t have this internally so needed a specific charger that contained the BMS external to the battery. At least this what I think I understand from my readings. Lead acid batteries just keep charging naturally until all the cells are fully charged, so don’t need a BMS.

Now it's non-stop on the tender and has the usual asthmatic starts, but it works. Would hate to throw out a battery that still does the trick, so the jump starter is always with me. Peace of mind, like a tire plug kit and pump
That's where I was at, I had it always on the tender and even fresh off of the tender it was still sluggish in the morning. Seemed to be better in the afternoon after work, but I was always crossing my fingers! If I happened to have accidentally stalled it in traffic there was not enough grunt to restart the bike just pulling in the clutch, I had to put the transmission into neutral and even then it would barely start. Not a safe situation, so this was my primary motivation to replace the battery. I'm hanging on to the OEM battery since the jury is still out on this new fangled one.
 
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SkunkWorks

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After my "No-Start" a couple weeks ago, the bike has just been parked in the garage.
I did not plug the battery in at all during this time..................Have not even touched the ignition switch.
I have not had a chance to ride the bike since the No-Start issue.
Went to start it today and it fired right up with no issue!
I let it warm up until the fan came on and went back off. Revved it a few times, and then shut it off.
 

Tenman

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After my "No-Start" a couple weeks ago, the bike has just been parked in the garage.
I did not plug the battery in at all during this time..................Have not even touched the ignition switch.
I have not had a chance to ride the bike since the No-Start issue.
Went to start it today and it fired right up with no issue!
I let it warm up until the fan came on and went back off. Revved it a few times, and then shut it off.
Get you a lithium battery jumper. It will happen and leave you in a BIND. It happened to me alone. Thought I was gonna be buzzard chow.
 

SkunkWorks

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Did it to me again today......................:confused:

Since it is 60-degrees here right now, I drove the Jeep home on my lunch-break.
Geared-up, backed the S10 out of the garage, closed the garage door, hit the starter button.
It popped a couple times and then just crank-and-crank. Went to WOT and tried again..........It popped a couple more times and then just cranks-and-cranks..... I also smelled fuel from the exhaust......
Opened the garage door again, wheeled it inside, took all my gear back off..........Plugged in my battery maintainer.
Dejected, I hopped back in my Jeep and drove back to work. :(
 

WJBertrand

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Short term update on my Scorpion Li battery. Nothing really to report, the bike is cranking vigorously and seems to catch with fewer crankshaft revolutions, the same impressions as when originally fitted. I have not had any sluggish starts like when the OEM battery was in there and the bike has had to sit as much as a week at a time due to all the rain we've been getting. I've purposely left it off the charger since installing it.

Yesterday morning when first starting it the engine kicked back, which temporarily slows the cranking speed. I just kept my thumb planted on the starter and it fired, albeit with a couple extra seconds cranking required. The dash didn't go blank like it would have when this would happen with the OEM battery in there, so I think voltage stayed good and strong. That kicking back action with the old battery would lead to some really slow cranking, a blanking dash and usually needing a full open throttle to get it lit. So far so good.
 
B

ballisticexchris

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Thanks a lot Jeff for trying out one of these Li batteries. I'm pretty darn sure that's what will be going on my ST when my OEM one gives up.
 

EricV

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Remember that Li batteries are very temp sensitive. A good trick if you have cold temps with a Li battery on the S10 is to give it a short start, then wait 20-30 seconds while it sits with the headlights on. this warms the Li battery with the discharge, then go at the starter again. It will usually turn over briskly and fire up nicely.
 

WJBertrand

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Coldest start I’ve had so far here in rainy SoCal has been about 46F, not cold enough to be an issue evidently as it seemed to crank just as robustly as at higher temps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

SkunkWorks

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3-hours later, I came home from work...........Battery showed to be fully charged.
Unhooked my battery maintainer, turned the key on, held it WFO and hit the starter button.
It sputtered and popped a couple times, and then roared to life!
A bunch of black-smoke from the exhaust again...........It was definitely flooded.
Put all my gear on, and then took it out for a couple hours as I had some errands to run.
It started every time, at every stop I made.
Topped it off with a tank-full of ethanol-free mid-grade, and rode it home.


I picked up this temporary, cheap solution....................
It is on my Maintainer getting a full charge. I'll install it this weekend.........I'm guessing the OEM battery is finally getting weak enough to where this might start happening more regularly?

IMG_3879.JPG

IMG_3880.JPG
 

flonic

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Hello. recently I have problems with starting the motorcycle (ST1200Z, year of manufacture 2018, 5600km, is in warranty 2 years). in cold starts without problems, but in hot, after a longer parking with high temperatures (30 degrees C) if I am lucky it starts from the first key, if not to the 2nd or third maybe even 4 key.
the battery was checked in service yamaha romania; It's ok. there they told me that the problem arose from water in gasoline. at the checks performed by the service they found the dirty spark plugs on a piston and dirt on the intake valves. cleaned valves, changed spark plugs in service, changed air filter. the first key meant a short failure. the second was a success. this until I got home when after two feeds the same problem appeared, starting after 2 or 3 keys. now ST is in yamaha service where I can't find the problem. no error codes are registered. specifically, these problems have evolved from a missed start to a few days until their daily manifestation near each start. any ideas? thank you.
 

Jlq1969

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Hello. recently I have problems with starting the motorcycle (ST1200Z, year of manufacture 2018, 5600km, is in warranty 2 years). in cold starts without problems, but in hot, after a longer parking with high temperatures (30 degrees C) if I am lucky it starts from the first key, if not to the 2nd or third maybe even 4 key.
the battery was checked in service yamaha romania; It's ok. there they told me that the problem arose from water in gasoline. at the checks performed by the service they found the dirty spark plugs on a piston and dirt on the intake valves. cleaned valves, changed spark plugs in service, changed air filter. the first key meant a short failure. the second was a success. this until I got home when after two feeds the same problem appeared, starting after 2 or 3 keys. now ST is in yamaha service where I can't find the problem. no error codes are registered. specifically, these problems have evolved from a missed start to a few days until their daily manifestation near each start. any ideas? thank you.
First of all, I doubt that you have performed a valve cleaning. If they charged you for this service, start by looking for another service. I don't know how long you press the "start" button. In general, the S10 is not one that starts immediately. In my case, “never, but never” .. I release the “star” button until it starts, “except” that I will come to perceive that the battery is exhausted (in that case I would seek external electrical help, to avoid a “hard star” and its fault codes ”..... as advice, 1) put the key in“ ignition ”and wait a few seconds until the fuel pump reaches its working pressure (2-3 sec) .... 2 ) press the start button and do not release it (3-5 sec) should start. If you release the button and try again, the second attempt "is probably more complicated"
 

flonic

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romania / europe
For Jlq1969
I just followed the start procedure; the motorcycle starts especially hard (or almost always) only after I take a ride with it and park it in the sun. as for what the service mechanics did ... I can't guarantee the job. hence the engine is in service yamaha romania, where it was the first intervention.
don't you think it's good to notify the yamaha manufacturer for these defects hidden to the operator?
as BMW recalled in service GS1200 products from 2013 to 2017 for checks and remedies why not take a similar measure yamaha? I have been following this aspect for 2 days and notice that it is a problem on all models at least from 2012 to 2018.
 

nimac

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Perth, Western Australia
I had a hard start recently, it just would not catch. After doing some research, and observing the pump noises at key turn, I have come to the conclusion that if you turn the ignition on with the kill switch in ON position, you get a prime up burst from the pump, but if you turn the ignition key on with the kill switch in OFF position, the pump doesn't prime up and remains quiet. I'm not sure why this is, but I think maybe the pump "burst" is developing a little to much fuel pressure, and come start time , allows just a little to much fuel on initial injection cycle and that is enough to upset the fuel mixture to get to rich (flooded).
The solution I think is to always use the kill switch to turn off the engine, and leave it in off position until you actually want the hit the starter button. I have been doing this for a month or 2 and so far the engine starts easily every time (fingers crossed!!!!).
 

EricV

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@flonic - Welcome to the forum. Please take a moment to put your location in your profile for future reference. It adds context to your posts and bikes from different parts of the world have unique differences.

Since your problem seems to occur when the bike sits in the sun after a ride, it makes me wonder about fuel tank venting. Have you noticed any pressure or vacuum when opening the fuel cap when this occurs?

Have you, or anyone, checked that the two rubber vent lines are correctly routed and not pinched when the tank is lowered back down after inspection/service?

Have you verified that the vent at the top of the gas cap area is clear?

Have you verified that the check valve in the cap itself is not stuck?

Most classic "hard starts" are due to flooding of the engine with fuel. On the classic hard start, fuel washes down the cylinder walls and compression is lost. The engine will spin faster, but not catch and sound noticeably odd. Have you noticed this?

You are probably aware, but just in case, when the bike does not start the first time, it is critical that you turn the key fully off before attempting to start a second time. And each time after that if it fails to start. There are multiple reasons for this, but the main one is that the headlights will remain on after the first failed starting attempt and that takes power away from the starter. When you turn the key off again, then back on, the headlights will remain off until you let go of the starter switch. (hopefully because the engine has started)
 

Checkswrecks

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Welcome to the group.

I agree with EricV about the possibility of a vent issue. Try starting with the gas cap slightly open each time for a few days and you will know whether to keep looking or if the vent is the issue.

With the water in the gas, you might also have a dirty injector. Consider pulling the injectors, check the fuel pump flow rate, and check the injector spray patterns.
 

flonic

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come back with a yamaha service information:
the problem of starting difficult with a predilection when the motorcycle is parked in the sun is due to a hose / pipe that takes the pressure of the gases formed in the tank (it is a constructive artifact for the Euro 4 models). when switching on and activating the start button, these gases would be included in the supply circuit at the same time as the gas supply from the gas pump.
hence the drowning of the engine with gasoline. the problem is that they did not give the solution.
 

EricV

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If the hose/pipe is external, could you perhaps insulate it to reduce the effects?

Sounds like an even better reason to use the stop switch. Less time between when the gases are released and you hit the start button.
 

Clawdog60

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come back with a yamaha service information:
the problem of starting difficult with a predilection when the motorcycle is parked in the sun is due to a hose / pipe that takes the pressure of the gases formed in the tank (it is a constructive artifact for the Euro 4 models). when switching on and activating the start button, these gases would be included in the supply circuit at the same time as the gas supply from the gas pump.
hence the drowning of the engine with gasoline. the problem is that they did not give the solution.
That was good for a laugh.
 

flonic

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If the hose/pipe is external, could you perhaps insulate it to reduce the effects?

Sounds like an even better reason to use the stop switch. Less time between when the gases are released and you hit the start button.
that was the discrete solution of yamaha (discreet, right?).
 
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