ABS bleeding and failures

[Ron Earp]

Re: ABS pump failed at 7k miles

I've got a shop manual and will look for any info on self testing. Good idea.

 

[Bigbore4]

Re: ABS pump failed at 7k miles

While I find this an interesting topic, I also find it totally unacceptable that we (motorcycle riders) accept this to be "normal"..... It is not! I hate that we have to accept sub-standard equipment on bikes. I have owned many vehicles over my lifetime and only bikes have issues. I own a BMW SUV, I bought it, I get in and drive it, I don't have to worry if the ABS pump may fail, or make it 'cycle' to ensure that it does at some point in the future when I'm hurtling down a mountain pass with the kids on board. I don't worry that the lights may fail, or the wheel nuts need checking after a few hundred miles until they 'bed' in or that the CCT may fail and implode. Or that strange vibration can be cured with an updated clutch basket, the list can go on, and not just the S10, but all bikes. And it's not the cost either, as my car costs 5 times more than the S10 (like for like new) but it is also 5 times more than the S10 in terms of features, comfort and reliability. I did not have to change the screen because of wind noise or buffeting. And most of all, the customer service is second to none, not like Yamaha or it's dealers. I ride for fun and stress relief, I like riding, so I don't want to be bothered about an impending potential failure, where is the fun in that? ::009:: Normal programming will resume shortly.....

You're over thinking it. Most riders have been at it a while and the ABS never cycles. We do it with the lever. If you never use the ABS, the fluid stays stagnant in that loop and the motor never turns. Fact of life. On my 4 wheeled vehicles, the ABS gets cycled all winter long, Mother Nature helps us with that. Some bikes that do a self check are looking at the electronics, I do not believe they cycle the motor, my experience is strictly Yamaha however.

Look at all the members here and over on ADVRider, and there are a very small number of ABS and CCT failures. So that's what we talk about. I have been owning and driving / riding since 1973, far and away the Yamaha motorcycles I have owned have given me far less issues than anything else.

I intend to continue to take my bike to a gravel road periodically and cycle the ABS, damn cheap insurance! Not to mention practice so you know what it feels like!
::021::

EDIT to add Yes I had to deal with points and condensors!

 

[Cycledude]

Re: ABS pump failed at 7k miles

Exactly what is your method for cycling the ABS ?

I've engaged the ABS a few times just to experience what it would feel like, on gravel I didn't care for it much but on blacktop it was impressive. I came unbelievably close to hitting an elk in Idaho in pouring rain, the front end was going up and down like a woodpecker but I was able to maintain control, without ABS I'm positive the outcome would not have been nice at all. I suspect since my front shocks have been rebuilt the woodpecker effect might not be nearly as serious but I haven't tested that yet to really know for sure.

 

[Bigbore4]

Re: ABS pump failed at 7k miles

^^^
Pretty much what you just described. On good dirt or gravel I run up to around 20 MPH or so and intentionally grab enough brake to cause the ABS to activate. Do it a couple times and good to go.

On a recent ride, I did way too many miles in heavy holiday traffic in CA. As you said I unintentionally cycled them on pavement a couple times. Dang glad they were working AND that I KNEW they worked and what it felt like.

 

[tubebender]

Re: ABS pump failed at 7k miles

I can do the ABS tests in the shop manual on my 2012 by simply flipping a switch.
All the answers are here in posts 7, 9 , and 21.

http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=10670.0

 

[NoRush]

ABS unit failure

Guys, my one friend a tour guide. He rides a S10 2010 model. Done thousands of miles(kilometers) my neck of the woods. Bottom line is he did all services at good Yammie dealers
and his ABS brake unit failed. The symptom at the outset looked like a failed rear brake cylinder. Replaced it and still same symptom persisted. On closer inspection dealer found that
ABS unit had in fact packed up. OUTCOME: When replacing brake fluid the ABS unit needs to be bled with special tool at dealership. All the gunk(trapped in abs unit) jammed up rear ABS piston so no modulation could happen. He had no warning light.

 

[gv550]

Re: ABS unit failure

I'm relatively new to the Super Tenere world, but I've read the factory service manual and there is no procedure for bleeding or replacing the fluid in the ABS unit. The brake system is bled by using the bleeders on the brake calipers, I don't think there is a bleeder on the ABS unit. There is no Yamaha special tool listed to bleed the ABS unit, only a test adapter to check the operation of the ABS.
I also have a 2009 Kawasaki Voyager, it has a similar ABS unit with power boost and front to rear linking depending on speed. This bike has 357,000 miles on original ABS components without issue, I service the system using only the caliper bleeders as recommended by Kawasaki, but I do replace the brake fluid twice a year rather than once in two years stated in the manual.
Replacing the brake fluid is easy to do and very inexpensive, and I'm amazed at how dirty it gets considering it's a sealed system. Change it often and you will likely never have a problem with any component. ::009::

 

[limey]

Re: ABS unit failure

My ABS unit packed in at around 30,000km and had it replaced at the first Colorado rally and lost 3 days riding because of Yamaha Canada had the dealer trouble shooting the problem. My unit was sucking in air to the rear brakes only so after bleeding the brakes it would only last a few hrs at the best. It was replaced under warranty. What I did find was the drain hole in the plastic housing the the unit sits in is to small and was plugged up with mud and then the rain had no place to go so the unit was sitting in water. I ended up drilling 2 larger holes in the plastic housing.

 

[greg the pole]

Re: ABS unit failure

My ABS unit packed in at around 30,000km and had it replaced at the first Colorado rally and lost 3 days riding because of Yamaha Canada had the dealer trouble shooting the problem. My unit was sucking in air to the rear brakes only so after bleeding the brakes it would only last a few hrs at the best. It was replaced under warranty. What I did find was the drain hole in the plastic housing the the unit sits in is to small and was plugged up with mud and then the rain had no place to go so the unit was sitting in water. I ended up drilling 2 larger holes in the plastic housing.

good info Limey,

so the plastic tray under the ABS needs a bigger hole drilled?

 

[Kevhunts]

Re: ABS unit failure

I'm relatively new to the Super Tenere world, but I've read the factory service manual and there is no procedure for bleeding or replacing the fluid in the ABS unit. The brake system is bled by using the bleeders on the brake calipers, I don't think there is a bleeder on the ABS unit. There is no Yamaha special tool listed to bleed the ABS unit, only a test adapter to check the operation of the ABS.
I also have a 2009 Kawasaki Voyager, it has a similar ABS unit with power boost and front to rear linking depending on speed. This bike has 357,000 miles on original ABS components without issue, I service the system using only the caliper bleeders as recommended by Kawasaki, but I do replace the brake fluid twice a year rather than once in two years stated in the manual.
Replacing the brake fluid is easy to do and very inexpensive, and I'm amazed at how dirty it gets considering it's a sealed system. Change it often and you will likely never have a problem with any component. ::009::

You can in effect, bleed the entire system in the traditional manor and then perform the simple ABS test with a paperclip. Bleed the system once again and basically you have flushed the entire system.

 

[EricV]

Re: ABS unit failure

As KevHunts has stated, there actually is a procedure for cycling the ABS unit. Yamaha uses a test lead, anyone can do it with a short piece of wire or paperclip to ground the test wires and follow the outlined procedure in the FSM.

Or, just take a short ride and engage the ABS system a few times. Easy enough to do in a gravel parking lot at low speeds even. They just as Kev said, do another flush/bleed and you've got fresh fluid in the entire system.

Part of the reason ABS valve blocks fail, due to that gunk and old fluid sitting in the valve, is because most people never engage the ABS. You should be engaging the ABS a few times a year, at minimum, just to cycle the fluid.

 

[Kevhunts]

Re: ABS unit failure

As KevHunts has stated, there actually is a procedure for cycling the ABS unit. Yamaha uses a test lead, anyone can do it with a short piece of wire or paperclip to ground the test wires and follow the outlined procedure in the FSM.

Or, just take a short ride and engage the ABS system a few times. Easy enough to do in a gravel parking lot at low speeds even. They just as Kev said, do another flush/bleed and you've got fresh fluid in the entire system.

Part of the reason ABS valve blocks fail, due to that gunk and old fluid sitting in the valve, is because most people never engage the ABS. You should be engaging the ABS a few times a year, at minimum, just to cycle the fluid.

I'd also like to add a tip for ALL ABS SYSTEMS...avoid pushing dirty fluid from calipers back thru the ABS unit and into the reservoirs.

If you are changing brake pads,(you should change your brake fluid too!) crack the caliper bleeder screws and let the dirty fluid escape when pushing pistons back to make room for the new pads. Don't push that dirty fluid back thru the ABS valves or you are just asking for trouble down the road.

 

[limey]

Re: ABS unit failure

good info Limey,

so the plastic tray under the ABS needs a bigger hole drilled?

You are correct, I believe mine became plugged on my Deadhorse trip as we had lots of rain on the way up.

 

[gv550]

Re: ABS unit failure

I'd also like to add a tip for ALL ABS SYSTEMS...avoid pushing dirty fluid from calipers back thru the ABS unit and into the reservoirs.

If you are changing brake pads,(you should change your brake fluid too!) crack the caliper bleeder screws and let the dirty fluid escape when pushing pistons back to make room for the new pads. Don't push that dirty fluid back thru the ABS valves or you are just asking for trouble down the road.

That is good advice, along with using the ABS regularly.
Another tip to consider is when changing pads don't simply push the pistons back into to the caliper, pump the lever to push the pistons out a 1/4 inch and use brake cleaner to remove the caked-on dirt from the pistons. Minimizes the dirt in the system and much easier life for the seals.

 

[SilverBullet]

Re: ABS unit failure

...
If you are changing brake pads,(you should change your brake fluid too!) crack the caliper bleeder screws and let the dirty fluid escape when pushing pistons back to make room for the new pads. Don't push that dirty fluid back thru the ABS valves or you are just asking for trouble down the road.

That could be extreme overkill depending on your brake use and how fast you go through pads. Brake fluid doesn't really get dirty with use as much as the fluid retains moisture with age/exposure and degrades. Every time you open your brake reservoirs you are allowing additional moisture to enter the closed system. Better IMO to push the pistons back only when changing pads and then do your bi annual fluid flush/changes.

_

 

[Kevhunts]

Re: ABS unit failure

That could be extreme overkill depending on your brake use and how fast you go through pads. Brake fluid doesn't really get dirty with use as much as the fluid retains moisture with age/exposure and degrades. Every time you open your brake reservoirs you are allowing additional moisture to enter the closed system. Better IMO to push the pistons back only when changing pads and then do your bi annual fluid flush/changes.

_

The "dirt" I refer to is not from external sources but rather the slow degradation of rubber components inside the system that give you that black sooty appearance and darkening of the fluid. You definitely do not want that stuff floating around in your ABS system.
Yes some may view changing fluid at pad changes as overkill, but brake fluid is cheap, my life on two wheels is not. My philosophy is riding a motorcycle is risky, maybe even dangerous. I want every advantage I can get to reduce that risk.
I guess it comes down to whats most important to you the individual.
::009:: ::021::

 

[Checkswrecks]

Re: ABS unit failure

Agree with ericV and KevHunts on regularly exercising the system AND giving at least a cursory flush when changing pads.


Part of the need for getting the fluid of of the slave units is brake fluid is hygroscopic and will absorb water, but only to a point. Any moisture will collect in the lowest point(s) which are at the pistons and that's where the fluid also gets the hottest. Over time, you can develop a spongy brake lever and corrosion in the piston bores leading to leaks.


As for the ABS unit failing, prevention costs a LOT less than replacement, and yes, we've had enough people experience it that this thread will be merged with an existing couple.

 

[SilverBullet]

Re: ABS unit failure

The "dirt" I refer to is not from external sources but rather the slow degradation of rubber components inside the system that give you that black sooty appearance and darkening of the fluid. You definitely do not want that stuff floating around in your ABS system.
Yes some may view changing fluid at pad changes as overkill, but brake fluid is cheap, my life on two wheels is not. My philosophy is riding a motorcycle is risky, maybe even dangerous. I want every advantage I can get to reduce that risk.
I guess it comes down to whats most important to you the individual.
::009:: ::021::

My understanding was always that the fluid darkening was due to moisture. My 2013 bought Jan '15 still has clear fluid, 3 rear pad changes and once in the front. But I've never cracked the system open yet. Due for a flush currently with other maintenance as well. I also agree with you on regular maintenance and prefer to do things myself for peace of mind knowing it was done right. But I know more than one acquaintances that did brake maintenance only to botch it and caused a serious accident with life threatening injuries first ride after. For them "if it ain't broke don't fix it" would be safer.

_

 

[Standby diver]

My understanding was always that the fluid darkening was due to moisture.

_

I always thought this as well, so I mixed some brake fluid with water. It didn't darken. So I left that fluid sit open to the air for a few months. It didn't darken. I don't know what causes break fluid to darken, break down of soft goods or exposure to heat, but I don't think it is solely moisture.



Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[Checkswrecks]

While DOT 3 and 4 can absorb about 6% water (probably too little to see), what your experiment missed was heat and contact with the other materials in a braking system. The blackness comes from a combination of things and moisture is the vehicle by which those other factors break down the materials, as discussed a little here in Section 2.3:

http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/1998/NIST.IR.6233.pdf


Quoting Section 2.3:



"The factors that contribute to alterations in brake fluid chemistry as a vehicle ages can be grouped into three categories: (1) intrinsic factors, (2) extrinsic factors, and (3) abnormal events. Intrinsic factors are those that depend on the brake fluid chemistry and the design of the ABS system. The chemical and thermal stability of the compounds in the brake fluid are the primary intrinsic factors governing brake fluid degradation during vehicle aging. However, ABS and brake system design factors including the metals and polymers exposed to the brake fluid, the normal temperatures of these materials, the rate of absorption of brake fluid constituents into the polymers, the permeation rate of environmental species through polymers and seals to the brake fluid, and brake fluid circulation rates are also important intrinsic factors."


More importantly, the report shows why it is so important to replace the fluid at least every other year. Somewhere around 30 months . . .
"They found that the buffer capacity and inhibitor concentrations dropped to less than 10% of their initial levels after only 30 months of service. They also found that while the concentrations of copper and zinc ions in the samples increased slowly and continuously from the beginning, that the iron ion content did not begin increasing until after 30 months of service when inhibitor concentrations dropped and dissolved copper levels"
From a less scientific source, this chart is a nice visual about how fast the fluid breaks down: