greg the pole
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people
updated
A survey: Issue count to send to yamaha
- Thread starter greg the pole
- Start date
vochoa9950@yahoo.com
New Member
Issue on headlight wire harness. Right headlight bulb get busted easily due to over heated connectors. How will I get a replacement due to recall? I am from the Philippines.
RED CAT
New Member
Give me Shift on the Fly Traction Control, Please!
Dirt_Dad said:
Never said it was a figment of anyone's imagination... Just that's it's most likely operator induced.
Dallara
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Well if mine were "operator induced" I would sure as heck like to know how. I start the bike the same way every time. I push the start button and hold it until I hear the motor start. No multiple button pushes and no throttle at all. The same way I start my other bikes and they have never had the hard start. Almost 100K miles on the V-Strom starting it exactly the same way and ZERO hard starts. 99% of the time the S10 starts right up. But 3 times now, in 35,000 miles it did not. The last time I was very careful, having seen your posts, to not let up on the starter as I rolled in throttle to WFO and it finally started after a minute or two. So tell me how can I mess that up? I am not saying it is not possible for it to be caused by operator error but there are way too many cases were this has happened to very experienced riders multiple times and only on the S10 to chock it up to operator error.
greg the pole
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people
Head light harness now a official recall.
The Ferret
Member
any section for odometer switch on the instrument panel?
jaeger22 said:
My conclusion that the "hard start" is operator induced/operator error is not aimed at anyone personally, yet people seem to take it so and become rather defensive about it. No offense intended, I assure you, Jaeger22.
No doubt you are a very experienced rider, as are many who have had the issue crop up. However, that doesn't necessarily mean the issue is still not operator induced. Even the best of riders make tiny little strings of errors that can add up to something like this. They don't do all of them all the time, but when they do string them together in just the right sequence, *BOOM*, a "hard start". It's just like the very best of mechanics can often make a tiny error, and it causes major damage. I've seen it from local motorcycle wrenches all the way up to top-flight Indy Car chief mechanics. My experience with those disciplines, as well as being in the vehicle business for more than 37 years (with thousands of customers, both experienced and inexperienced), is what I base my conclusion on. It's no slam to anyone... Just an educated piece of reasoning.
Is the Super Tenere more sensitive to a certain string of potential operator errors that results in a "hard start"? Perhaps, and if so, maybe the Mothership at Yamaha can still help.
Is it a true, bona fide mechanical or electronic problem or defect in certain Super Tenere's? Perhaps, but if so then it should be repeatable. The very fact the "hard start" is so random, and occurs under often wildly different circumstances, and seems to be in no way repeatable the same way to the same bike multiple times is even one of the best supporting pieces of evidence for my conclusion.
We can debate it until the cows come home, but in the end it really is just your opinion and mine, with neither carrying more weight at the moment. At least that's the way it is until Yamaha does some sort of recall or TSB on the subject. As we have seen with the busted racks on the early European units, the fuel pump o-ring on units in many markets, and now the multi-national recall on the headlamp harness, Yamaha (unlike some other brands) is not shy about admitting when they have a problem, and doing something about it... Often even when it is very expensive to do so. That might be the final answer on the subject, if it ever comes.
It is funny, though... When I was growing up, and somebody flooded their car trying to start it, I never remember anyone ever saying it was anything other than "operator error". Times change, I guess.
Dallara
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Probably showing my ignorance here, but once a bike gets into a hard start situation, regardless of how it got there, couldn't a Yamaha tech plug into the ECU and see what's going on? There are not that many factors involved in starting a motorcycle engine and I would think the ECU knows the state all of them.
Once a bike is in the hard start state does that state persist forever until the bike is finally coerced into starting? Or does it heal itself if left to sit long enough? If it's the former then it would be very interesting to get a bike in that state into a shop and see what the computer says about it.
Once a bike is in the hard start state does that state persist forever until the bike is finally coerced into starting? Or does it heal itself if left to sit long enough? If it's the former then it would be very interesting to get a bike in that state into a shop and see what the computer says about it.
djm_ct
Member
Dallara said:
arjayes said:
Sorry, but most often it's just not that simple... First off, it all depends on how sophisticated the data logging and storage is in any EFI/ECU ignition system, and to the best of my knowledge the system in the Super Tenere doesn't "show" what's going on in "real time". It simply reads the sensor data and then refers to its look-up tables or "maps" and reacts accordingly. As for as error logging it only logs certain specific error codes (as outlined in the service manual if you want to take a look). All that's logged there is the error code... Not the amount any sensor, actuator, etc. is "out of range". It's left to the tech to see the stored codes, and then check the errant sensor to see if it is operating correctly via other checks - like voltage range or resistance.
Now, on top of all this, IIRC there has been no incident of a "hard start" while any Super Tenere's here on the forum have been at the dealer's shop. Further, apparently any instance of a "hard start" does *NOT* throw off an error code of any kind...
Further evidence that the issue is not a problem with the bike...
djm_ct said:
Following that line of reasoning I guess crashes are never "operator error", either... And technology should save us all from crashing no matter what kind of mistakes we make...
Again, I'm not here to debate anybody on it... It's been done here over and over again for years. A quick search will give you plenty of reading with opinions on both sides of the subject.
One possibility that it often overlooked in these "hard start" episodes is does the rider simply let the motorcycle completely finish its "self check" routine when the rider turns the key on. I can't tell you how many times I've seen riders flick the key on and immediately hit the starter button, when what they should be doing is turning the key on and waiting a few seconds while the bike goes through it's ritual of sweeping the tach needle across its face, all the warning lights, etc. to cycle on and off, and all that to settle down *BEFORE* hitting the starter button...
That *IS* in the owners manual IIRC, and yet all too often people ignore it, just like all too often riders simply avoid ever reading the owners manual at all.
As I've said, we could go 'round and 'round this issue again, ad infinitum... But the simple fact remains that no one has ever proved the "hard start" issue is *NOT* an "operator error", just as no one has ever proved it is well and truly any mechanical or electronic fault of the motorcycle. I understand how riders don't dare want to admit that they may be the actual problem, and how they are all sure they are doing everything "right"... It's far easier to blame Yamaha and not take a careful, methodical look at what they do when they start the bike, or perhaps read the manual...
Do they let the bike go all the way through the "self check" routine? Do they hold the button down continuously until the bike starts, or do they release it too early? Do they inadvertently twist the throttle grip slightly as they crank the bike? Etc., etc., etc.... You get the picture.
Until someone... Like Yamaha, or some other equally respected engineering, technical concern... proves that there is some sort of actual mechanical or electronic defect or problem causing the "hard start" issue then the possibility that the whole thing might be a simple "operator error" is equally as valid as a theory as to cause.
Dallara
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I put the hard-start issue to bed as operator-induced when I realized each time it happened to me (twice I think) it was after either:
A) thumb slipped off the starter button before the bike fired. Or
B) cold-started the bike and only let it run a few seconds before shutdown.
It's obvious to me that it's an over-rich condition. And this was solidified in my mind a couple of weeks ago when I rode my bike to work. At the end of the day I pulled it out of the shop about thirty minutes before we closed and left it running . A very experienced technician was standing there and said, "Nice bike." I replied, "Thanks, I have to let it run a few minutes after cold start or...." And he finished my sentence, "it will flood. I had a Honda that would do the same thing. Something in the cold-start programming."
So, we're not the only ones to experience this...
A) thumb slipped off the starter button before the bike fired. Or
B) cold-started the bike and only let it run a few seconds before shutdown.
It's obvious to me that it's an over-rich condition. And this was solidified in my mind a couple of weeks ago when I rode my bike to work. At the end of the day I pulled it out of the shop about thirty minutes before we closed and left it running . A very experienced technician was standing there and said, "Nice bike." I replied, "Thanks, I have to let it run a few minutes after cold start or...." And he finished my sentence, "it will flood. I had a Honda that would do the same thing. Something in the cold-start programming."
So, we're not the only ones to experience this...
Ok, Dallara, I DID document somewhere that one of the shop helpers at my dealer caused a hard start on my bike. He did the proverbial start for just a few seconds to move a cold bike, then killed it.
So I come to pick it up and it's already been put into a hard start scenario. Loaded the bike, took it home. Rolled it off the back of the truck and confirmed it was in hard start condition AND the battery was below optimum charge.
But, thanks to the historical data on the forum, I knew what to do. Jumped the bike off with the truck. WOT and a nice big battery boost. Took about 20 seconds of cranking. Spit and spewed and finally lit.
Let her do a full heat cycle. Problem solved.
Got some major cred on the whole hard start issue with the service manager the next visit. He knew about my bike having the issue. Did NOT know that they loaded it in my truck without fixing it. The fact that I wasn't upset and took the problem home with me to address surprised him. They think I'm a good customer. This forum actually gets credit for some of that.
So I come to pick it up and it's already been put into a hard start scenario. Loaded the bike, took it home. Rolled it off the back of the truck and confirmed it was in hard start condition AND the battery was below optimum charge.
But, thanks to the historical data on the forum, I knew what to do. Jumped the bike off with the truck. WOT and a nice big battery boost. Took about 20 seconds of cranking. Spit and spewed and finally lit.
Let her do a full heat cycle. Problem solved.
Got some major cred on the whole hard start issue with the service manager the next visit. He knew about my bike having the issue. Did NOT know that they loaded it in my truck without fixing it. The fact that I wasn't upset and took the problem home with me to address surprised him. They think I'm a good customer. This forum actually gets credit for some of that.
I guess what I am still struggling with is what error this operator could have done? :question: It is a very simple process. Push the button, let go when it starts. The last time it happened to me I paid very careful attention and I know for sure that I did not run it for a short time and put away, (more like 200 miles), the battery was full, and I did exactly the same as always. Absolutely only one push and hold of the button. Really really hard to mess up. And I have started my other two EFI bikes many hundreds of times, but it ONLY happens with my S10. 3 times in 35K miles on the S10, and ZERO times in 150K miles on the others. I can't even think of how I could mess up such a simple process. Monkey push the button, monkey hear the motor running.
So believe it is operator error if you like, people believe in all kinds of strange stuff but I will continue to call a spade a spade.
So believe it is operator error if you like, people believe in all kinds of strange stuff but I will continue to call a spade a spade.
jaeger22 said:
I've had my Super Tenere, since brand new, for over 37,000 miles and I've never had a "hard start"... Not once. Ever. So how do you explain that?
Note, just for the record... I've been around motorcycles all my life, and was a mechanic in shops for many years, then a dealer myself. I raced bikes, both dirt and pavement, for over 20 years, and did all my own tuning, engine building, etc. I've lost count of how many motorcycles I've owned, and I can only guess as to the number of EFI bikes I've had, but that has to number over 10, probably less than 30. First one was a 1982 Honda CX500 Turbo, the latest my Super Tenere. I still do all my own work for the most part, though I don't do tires since my dealer mounts and balances mine for free - and I *hate* doing tires! ::025::
I've also seen an unbelievable amount of "operator error" in my years first as a line mechanic, then as a franchised new motorcycle dealer, finally as a multi-brand, multi-store automobile dealer... Even by very smart, very savvy, very experienced people.
Point is, it's not my first rodeo, either... So you can believe it's some deep, dark, mysterious plot by Yamaha to put one over on all of us by selling us all defective bikes with EFI systems designed to cause you a "hard start", and do it in such a way it isn't readily repeatable to any degree so it can be properly diagnosed if it is a real mechanical or electronics problem... Like you say, some "people believe in all kinds of strange stuff", but also like you say "I will continue to call a spade a spade" until proven otherwise. I'm willing to admit I'm not infallible, and if my bike ever does have a "hard start" then I'm probably the one that caused it!
I guess we just have to agree to disagree, eh? ::003::
Dallara
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autoteach
New Member
I have already shed light on the method by which the computer evaluates the running condition. I wont do it again and will tell you to find it because I have done my work on the topic. As far as user error goes, if you are cranking and it doesn't fire within 3-5 revolutions, you go full throttle and it kicks off right away. My subaru does it, my super did it once, and it is never a problem. Conditions and parameters exist that are outside our control, turning the throttle is within our control. IT WORKS!!!! if everyone who bitches about this would stop being a cotton headed ninny muggins, you would see that this is just damn simple. TWIST THROTTLE, ENGINE GO VROOM. Some people persistently make the hard start condition occur, some never have it. IT IS OPERATOR ERROR. ::010:: ::010:: ::010:: ::010:: ::010:: ::010:: ::010:: ::010:: ::010:: ::010::
True but first I think we actually agree on several points.
This is NOT a big deal. A hard start once in 10K miles or so is an aggravation but not much more.
Yes I totally agree with this part.
But as to the:
I will have to respectfully but totally disagree. Here is why;
First Dallara you bring up your extensive experience and I respect that. I don't want to start a "my experience is bigger/better than yours" exchange but I think we both check the same or similar boxes. So briefly, let me just say that I started 50 years ago and the S10 is personal bike # 22. I was General Manager of a Yamaha store for several years and also did time as a Kawasaki and then Suzuki salesman while working on my engineering degree. So I do understand your skepticism about customer complaints.
Most of the money I made went to my passion, racing motorcycles. I did all the wrenching which was MUCH better than my riding skill. : As I mentioned before, I did my own EFI system on my DR-650 including all the maps and programing. So I know at least a little about EFI. And Bla, bla,bla....... You get the point. And I still change my own tires! ::008:: This does NOT make me an expert, self appointed or otherwise. But I am no newbie eitherI do feel that you and autoteach are operating from a position of ignorance in this particular instance. As evidenced here:
So you are commenting on something you have NEVER experienced. And you are telling those that have experienced it that they don't know what they are talking about. I hope some day you (and autoteach) DO get to experience it.
As to "operator error" I again maintain that it is just to simple to have any significant error. I at least, JUST PUSH THE BUTTON.
The machine should start. Most of the time it does but if it goes into a DEEP flood condition just from pushing the button, it is a fault NOT OPERATOR ERROR!
I think a key misunderstanding on the part of those that have not experienced it is that this is not a little flooded, it is VERY flooded. Like you poured a full cup of gas down your TBs kind of flooded. Yes it most often will start if you roll the throttle open and hold the button down long enough. But you will be very afraid that the starter will burn up or the battery will go flat first. And if you have a weak and/or under charger battery it will go flat.
I (and others) have tried very hard to find an operator error. I have deliberately given it a short run and then put away for a few days. Started right up. Turned the key on and off, 3, 5, 10, and then 15 times before starting. Started right up. Tried giving it various amounts of throttle while starting. Started right up. Then one morning a few weeks ago, I rolled it out of the garage on a beautiful morning, hit the magic button, and it immediately went into a DEEP flood state. Operator error? I don't think so.
Multiple Button push.
Dallara did some excellent research and video showing that if you hit the started button with short pushes, too short to allow it to start, you can cause the bike to flood and be slow to start. This is also true on almost any EFI equipped machine, because the EFI MUST provide a very rich starting environment for quick starts. I have duplicated the experiment with similar results. But this is NOT the hard start problem! No way. This condition clears quickly even after 5 or 6 pre-start button pushes. It is nothing like the real hard start problem. If you have ever experienced the real thing you will know the difference right away.
jaeger22 said:First Dallara you bring up your extensive experience and I respect that. I don't want to start a "my experience is bigger/better than yours" exchange but I think we both check the same or similar boxes. So briefly, let me just say that I started 50 years ago and the S10 is personal bike # 22. I was General Manager of a Yamaha store for several years and also did time as a Kawasaki and then Suzuki salesman while working on my engineering degree. So I do understand your skepticism about customer complaints.
I do feel that you and autoteach are operating from a position of ignorance in this particular instance. As evidenced here:So you are commenting on something you have NEVER experienced. And you are telling those that have experienced it that they don't know what they are talking about. I hope some day you (and autoteach) DO get to experience it.
As to "operator error" I again maintain that it is just to simple to have any significant error. I at least, JUST PUSH THE BUTTON.
The machine should start. Most of the time it does but if it goes into a DEEP flood condition just from pushing the button, it is a fault NOT OPERATOR ERROR!
I think a key misunderstanding on the part of those that have not experienced it is that this is not a little flooded, it is VERY flooded. Like you poured a full cup of gas down your TBs kind of flooded. Yes it most often will start if you roll the throttle open and hold the button down long enough. But you will be very afraid that the starter will burn up or the battery will go flat first. And if you have a weak and/or under charger battery it will go flat.
I (and others) have tried very hard to find an operator error. I have deliberately given it a short run and then put away for a few days. Started right up. Turned the key on and off, 3, 5, 10, and then 15 times before starting. Started right up. Tried giving it various amounts of throttle while starting. Started right up. Then one morning a few weeks ago, I rolled it out of the garage on a beautiful morning, hit the magic button, and it immediately went into a DEEP flood state. Operator error? I don't think so.
Multiple Button push.
Dallara did some excellent research and video showing that if you hit the started button with short pushes, too short to allow it to start, you can cause the bike to flood and be slow to start. This is also true on almost any EFI equipped machine, because the EFI MUST provide a very rich starting environment for quick starts. I have duplicated the experiment with similar results. But this is NOT the hard start problem! No way. This condition clears quickly even after 5 or 6 pre-start button pushes. It is nothing like the real hard start problem. If you have ever experienced the real thing you will know the difference right away.
Just for the record... I only mentioned my background because you kept mentioning many or your previous bikes and your experience with their starting characteristics. I just wanted you to know I was not at least a bit experienced in these kinds of things. So, there's another thing we can agree on - we both have a good understanding of how vehicles work, as well as having experience with these sort of issues! ::003::
Now, on another point... I mentioned I had never experienced a "hard start" with my own Super Tenere, which is true. However, that does not mean I have not seen similar issues crop up on other bikes as well as cars. Often in this conversation, Jaeger, you like to mention how similar so many EFI systems are, and I agree with you. But then you change tacks and say the Super Tenere must be fundamentally different to have this "hard start" issue. Your other EFI bikes start fine, with never a hint of the same kind of "hard start", but then your Super Tenere has it crop up from time to time...
Now before moving on, let me ask you this - Are you saying that it is an absolute, 100% impossibility that your "hard start" episodes could not have been something that you did during the starting procedure? Mind you, I said 100%... Not 99%... Not 95%... But are you 100% certain, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that this cannot be an "operator error" issue?
I only ask that because I honestly do not think that starting these things is "just too simple" for there to be any chance for error. For instance, I again mention the bike's own "system check" it goes through that one is supposed to allow to be completed before punching the start button. Are you absolutely, 100% positive that those 3 times you had a "hard start" that you allowed the bike to complete that "system check" where the tach needle does its swing, all the idiot lights flash on and then off, etc.? The more I listen to owners that have the "hard start" the more I am convinced that this may be related to the issue. As I am sure you know, some EFI and electronic ignition systems have to complete their normal "boot up" procedure before the systems will function properly, and that some ECU's are more sensitive to this than others... Just as some are terribly sensitive to certain types of high-frequency interference. Note how some are discovering that just some mis-routed wiring, passing too close to the stator, can adversely affect the idle speed and other TPS functions, yet other Super Tenere's experience none of these problems with exactly the same wire routing. Perhaps some Super Tenere ECU's really *need* to finish their "system check" before you try to start them...
I'm surprised avc3180 has not chimed in here yet, as there is currently probably no one else on this forum that knows the mapping and programming of the Super Tenere ECU that he does, yet he has never mentioned any odd fueling or mapping in the ECU at cranking speed. ECUnleashed has done quite a bit of work on Yamaha ECU's, yet they have never reported any oddities - i.e. differences in programming between the Super Tenere and other Yamaha models they sell re-flashes for, like R1's, R6's, etc. I know that the "hard start" issue has been mentioned to them, yet they can find nothing odd in the cranking RPM fueling to suggest that it is way richer and more susceptible to flooding that other Yamaha's...
Now, IMHO there may be one rather glaring factor that *may* make the Super Tenere particularly sensitive to any "operator error" during starting - its decompression system that holds exhaust valves open during cranking. That's something these other Yamaha models do *not* have, and may make things a bit more critical - like letting the "system check" complete, or not inadvertently barely cracking the throttle open during cranking, etc., etc., etc. - i.e. all sorts of inadvertent, incremental, seemingly insignificant examples of "operator error".
In other words (and I'm being simplistic here for others that may be following that don't understand the systems the same way you and I do)... The EFI system programming on the Super Tenere may not generally any different in programming than any other Yamaha, or even any other similar EFI system currently out there (like the ones on your other bikes), but the auto-decompression system on the Super Tenere makes it more critical in how, exactly, it is started up. If that's the case there really isn't much Yamaha can do, short of a complete engine re-design, since they use the auto-decompression set-up so they can use a smaller, lighter starter motor, and in turn a smaller, lighter battery. It also allows some other components to be smaller and lighter, too, as you well know.
Now, let me say, I don't think anyone who has experienced a "hard start" is any sort of ham-fisted, cement-headed, knuckle-dragging clod... ::025::
Far from it. I think most all of the people out there who buy Super Tenere's are intelligent, thoughtful folks, and most seem to be quite motorcycle-savvy and experienced. So when I say "operator error" I don't mean it's some sort of glaring, stupid, moronic mistake of any kind. No, I think the "operator error" in this case is very subtle, and certainly inadvertent for the most part... Maybe a little too quick on the starter button before letting the ECU fully "boot up" and gather its sensor data, for instance. Given the rarity of the issue maybe it's even a cascade of several little, tiny, inadvertent errors that make for the "Perfect Storm" kind of thing with the ECU, EFI, and auto-decompression system... And as we all know, ethanol-laced fuel doesn't help with any of these kind of things, either.
Anyway, I could go on, but you get the idea I'm sure. I doubt there is much of anything Yamaha can do to help with this "hard start" issue, especially since it's so random and so seemingly impossible to replicate any time when it could be analyzed. So we are left with owners needed to be a bit more aware and systematic starting this beast. IMHO the best recipe is to S-L-O-W down when starting a Super Tenere up. When you turn the key on let the bike go *completely* through its "system check", then even wait after that a half-beat... then make sure to leave the throttle alone and push the button, holding it down until the engine lights off completely, and even then let the bike settle down into a nice, even idle before jacking with throttle (to avoid inadvertently stalling it). I could certainly be 100% wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that would eliminate a lot of these "hard start" episodes. The rest could be cured, IMHO, but not doing all the key-on, key-off and short-run examples that have already been discussed at length.
Oh, and to correct something you mentioned... I was *NOT* the individual who did all the great research and video work in trying multiple, repeated starting attempts, etc. No, that was GrahamD, IIRC, who did us all such a service in trying to track down a cause for these "hard start" episodes. Must give proper credit where credit is due! Thanks, Graham! ::003::
So, Jaeger... We've gone round-and-round some more, and we're right back where we started (no pun intended... ::025:: )! You're still convinced it's gotta' be a machine defect, and I'm still convinced that it's something the operator inadvertently does that confuses what may be a total system (ECU, EFI, small starter, small battery, auto-compression rig, etc.) that is perhaps more sensitive that some others.
Reminds me of the first bike shop I worked in... Owner had a collection of gorgeous BSA DB34 Goldstar's, and I had always wanted to ride one. He had one he often rode back and forth to work, and he said if I could start that one I could ride it.
As an aside here, for you folks who don't know what a BSA DB34 Goldstar is, it's a British 500cc single, and a very high-performance one of its time. Google it if you want more info, but suffice to say they were known to often be hard to start, with lots of compression, a short kick arm, and timing for performance, not easy cranking! ::025::
Anyway, he could start that wonderful thing in one or two kicks, all the time, every time... Hot or cold. And so could all the other guys in the shop, though it sometimes took them 3 to 5 kicks. I had watched "The Drill" dozens of times, so I was sure I could do it, so the day came I said I'd like to try. And try I did... For dozens of kicks, wearing myself out, then resting, and trying again, over and over... That is until the damn thing backfired, kicked me back, and torn the sole off my friggin' boot!!! ::025:: It also bruised the hell out of the bottom of my foot and twisted the bejeezus out of my ankle, too. So that was it for me that day, and to add insult to injury the owner jumped on the bike, did some kick-throughs with the ignition off, petcock off, and compression release wide-open to clear it, then gave it two kicks and started it right up!
I finally got to ride that Beezer, but not until I finally figured out how to start it. Once I had it figured out it never took me more than 3 or 4 kicks, either. Of course, I had to go through its "hard start" phase first! ::025::
Dallara
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