Would you have bought your Tenere if it was the same price as a BMW 1200GS?

[autoteach]

I let a good friend ride mine this weekend. He is careful not to offend anyone, so I couldn't get the dislikes from him (said it couldn't pull a wheelie with the TC on, but could do it quite easily with it off). The big plus that he said was that it was natural. By the second turn he knew that it would go where he wanted, do what he wanted... the bike didn't have any nuances that make learning it any work. try that with a BMW as you enter your first corner and either roll off or on the throttle. Try the second, third, and forth corners. Did you get it right yet? probably not.

 

[Mzee]

I am looking to buying a second Yamaha. ::021::

 

[markjenn]

I let a good friend ride mine this weekend. He is careful not to offend anyone, so I couldn't get the dislikes from him (said it couldn't pull a wheelie with the TC on, but could do it quite easily with it off). The big plus that he said was that it was natural. By the second turn he knew that it would go where he wanted, do what he wanted... the bike didn't have any nuances that make learning it any work. try that with a BMW as you enter your first corner and either roll off or on the throttle. Try the second, third, and forth corners. Did you get it right yet? probably not.

Modern BMW do not have any untoward handling characteristics when you roll the throttle on/off like the old ones do. In fact, the current BMW paralever system is considerably more sophisticated than the S10's much more basic system and is designed to completely eliminate any shaft-drive jacking effect. In practice, both the GS and the S10 have almost no perceptive shaft-drive handling issues (other than higher unsprung weight than a chain drive bike). The issue you're bringing up is a non-issue with either.

On the front end, I think the BMW telelever system is actually more stable than a fork for road work and rolling the throttle on/off has less effect on handling. The drawback is a little bit of a vague feeling from the front end with somewhat less feedback. Off-road, the Yamaha's fork is probably the better front suspension as it is lighter and provides better feedback in tight/technical terrain.

GS's handle superbly. As does the S10. Beyond this, it's subtle tradeoffs.

- Mark

 

[tc9988]

Modern BMW do not have any untoward handling characteristics when you roll the throttle on/off like the old ones do. In fact, the current BMW paralever system is considerably unnecessarily more sophisticated complicated than the S10's much more basic system and is designed to completely eliminate any shaft-drive jacking effect. In practice, both the GS and the S10 have almost no perceptive shaft-drive handling issues (other than higher unsprung weight than a chain drive bike). The issue you're bringing up is a non-issue with either.

On the front end, I think the BMW telelever system is actually more stable than a fork for road work and rolling the throttle on/off has less effect on handling. The drawback is a little bit of a vague feeling from the front end with somewhat less feedback. Off-road, the Yamaha's fork is probably the better front suspension as it is lighter and provides better feedback in tight/technical terrain.

GS's handle superbly. As does the S10. Beyond this, it's subtle tradeoffs.

- Mark

fixed

 

[shieldsy]

After owning a 2001 R1150GS and a 2005 R1200GS - and having trouble and failures with both - I'd take the S10 at the same price.

 

[Nframe]

To be honest I would have bought the GS. I always considered it the apex of Adventure bikes.

And that would have been my folly...
I love the S10.

 

[snakebitten]

I have heard that 87% of BMW have no issues at all in the first 3 years. But that is a 13% discount I would be looking at straight away on a fleet purchase over a Honda / YAMAHA etc.

Having owned a few less than reliable cars in my time, reliability is something I now appreciate. There are places for fancy engineering and there are places for solid engineering I suppose.

You hold-out-bast#$@rd!

Where is this road?
I'm coming back. But I'm shipping MY S10 (ala ole git ray style) this time.

Dang that road calls.


Back on topic............

With the recent twist to the original question, (same price, same coo, and can I add same reliability?) I'd be bashing about on a new GSA. Simply in honor of what the damn thing stands for. It is the REAL thing. Coke, not Pepsi.

But in your dreams with the question. Original version or with the new wrinkle. There is a better chance of Yamaha building a better S10 than there is that BMW will suddenly return to what they were. I wouldn't even mind paying the German premium, if I knew I was getting the Yamaha quality.

I've said it before. Shame on BMW for not sorting out what SHOULD be the finest RTW adventure bike.

 

[GrahamD]

You hold-out-bast#$@rd!

Where is this road?
I'm coming back. But I'm shipping MY S10 (ala ole git ray style) this time.

Dang that road calls.

In South Australia. You can take your pick. Western NSW, Western QLD, Northern Territory, Nothern South Australia, Western Australia have roads that are far more "interesting" than that one.

Just to reenforce why reliability is an issue...And why you want a vehicle that is built to maximize your chances...

There is no set answer, of where the Outback begins that can nail it down to a particular area, simply because the Aussie outback is so huge.
The outback covers about 6.5 million square kilometres, and it is only inhabited by about 60,000 odd people or thereabouts of approximately 20 million people who live in Australia.
So it is a gigantic area with a very small population.

Don't come in the flood season though (La Ninia years). Lots of things get washed away.

 

[twinrider]

In fact, they go out of their way to make it difficult for owners to service their own bikes. From odd ball size torx fasteners to service lights to unbelievably over complex disassembly requirements for simple tasks.

+1. I test-rode the '13 WC and have to admit that the performance was very impressive. But BMW has made the bike very unfriendly to those who like to do their own work. A friend who's pretty handy couldn't even wire up his new driving lights to go on with his high beams because of the latest Canbus system and led headlight. His dealer installed an ETC transponder and even that caused issues with the Canbus.

 

[autoteach]

fixed

Good catch there Elwood. And, I work at a shop and have ridden BMW's back to the 1950's and through to the R1200GS, including the 1150. RS's, RT's, K's, etc etc. I can say the last one that I rode and remember the reaction from the suspension quite well was a R1150GS, which is a telelever, which "rocked" about the engine as you rolled on throttle to off throttle. They have been building shaft drives since Christ was Corporal, and they DO NOT have it right. Whether you are talking about the $1900 rearend, or the $900 shaft that fail, it is a joke. Sorry, "just as good" is "not as good"

 

[markjenn]

I can say the last one that I rode and remember the reaction from the suspension quite well was a R1150GS, which is a telelever, which "rocked" about the engine as you rolled on throttle to off throttle. They have been building shaft drives since Christ was Corporal, and they DO NOT have it right.

Sounds like you're talking about throttle-blip rocking which has nothing to do with the telelever (nor the shaft drive). It has to do with the engine being mounted longitudinally (crankshaft running fore-aft rather than transversely side-to-side). It's simple physics - when the engine speeds up in one direction there is an equal and opposite reaction in the chassis. Guzzis also do it as do Honda's ST bikes to a lesser degree - Honda rotates things like the alternator and clutch in the opposite direction to lessen the effect.

Our beloved S10's also do it, but in pitch rather than roll. Since the bike's suspension counters the force rather than the rider, you don't notice it.

Throttle-blip rocking is a quirk you notice when you revving the engine at a stop, but is has essentially no affect on handling. The new LQ BMW's also do not do it anymore apparently - they spin accessories in the opposite direction to lessen the effect.

- Mark

 

[Dallara]

Sounds like you're talking about throttle-blip rocking which has nothing to do with the telelever (nor the shaft drive). It has to do with the engine being mounted longitudinally (crankshaft running fore-aft rather than transversely side-to-side). It's simple physics - when the engine speeds up in one direction there is an equal and opposite reaction in the chassis. Guzzis also do it as do Honda's ST bikes to a lesser degree - Honda rotates things like the alternator and clutch in the opposite direction to lessen the effect.

Our beloved S10's also do it, but in pitch rather than roll. Since the bike's suspension counters the force rather than the rider, you don't notice it.

Throttle-blip rocking is a quirk you notice when you revving the engine at a stop, but is has essentially no affect on handling. The new LQ BMW's also do not do it anymore apparently - they spin accessories in the opposite direction to lessen the effect.

- Mark

Horse hockey...

I don't think that's what Autoteach is talking about at all. He's been around long enough, and ridden enough, to know about torque reaction, crankshaft orientation, etc. He's worked in shops on vehicles, Mark, rather than just post on forums about 'em.

I think he's talking about one of the same things that drove me nuts on my last BMW - a 2002 R1150R, which was essentially a shorter suspension G/S - that is the weird fore-and-aft "rocking" caused by that stupidly short, highly-angled swingarm and the odd tiny bit of pro-dive that BMW built into the front Telelever to help try and make it *feel* more like a conventionally suspended motorcycle. Both made the bike incredibly sensitive to small throttle changes, and did make it rock fore-and-aft - *NOT* just side-to-side as you're trying to imply - when you make throttle changes, say in mid-corner.

IMHO it's that inanely short, moronically highly-angled swingarm that makes the friggin' things so hobby-horse pitch-sensitive. BMW can tout their horn all they want about their self-propagandized "Paralever" and make their erroneous claims that it "eliminates" shaft-drive jacking, but as with most things BMW, their claims are far, far from the truth, or reality. Yamaha employs absolutely *NO* linkage in their shaft-drive systems and they do not experience shaft-drive jacking effects. All they do is set the pinion at a low incidence angle to the drive gear and *VIOLA'*, no effects. Of course using a long swingarm helps (as it does with other suspension dynamics), but I'll leave to the collective as to which is is a better, more elegant, and ultimately more logically engineered solution.

And lets not forget that a large part of BMW's shaft drive maladies and failures are a direct result of that idiotic "Paralever", which causes insane excessive angularity issues with the universal joints, splines, etc.

It's always been apparent you would much rather own and ride a BMW (or KTM), Mark... What puzzles me is why you don't just go and buy one.

Dallara



~

 

[powder]

Trying to decide between the two, not looking to start a

brand war.
Thanks for any input.

W/O a doubt, and here's why: quality. I've run an FJR1300 into the ground-running extraordinary power through this shaft drive w/o problems. Yamaha has not put out an XT pooch, IMHO...Secondly, the Tenere will cost less out of pocket maintenance money in the long run. We ran several BMWs for several years. We both have great jobs, with excellent incomes, but those bikes were a bad investment in any/every way we looked at it. The Yamahas we've owned are paid off, we still run them and can maintain them in our garage. Not a positive for every rider out there, but definitely is for us. YMMV.

 

[Mark R.]

I would still get the Yamaha, mostly because the BMW salespeople are snotty c%nts here In Albuquerque, and the Yamaha dealer here I work with is excellent. I like the bike better too.

 

[autoteach]

Sounds like you're talking about throttle-blip rocking which has nothing to do with the telelever (nor the shaft drive). It has to do with the engine being mounted longitudinally (crankshaft running fore-aft rather than transversely side-to-side). It's simple physics - when the engine speeds up in one direction there is an equal and opposite reaction in the chassis. Guzzis also do it as do Honda's ST bikes to a lesser degree - Honda rotates things like the alternator and clutch in the opposite direction to lessen the effect.

Our beloved S10's also do it, but in pitch rather than roll. Since the bike's suspension counters the force rather than the rider, you don't notice it.

Throttle-blip rocking is a quirk you notice when you revving the engine at a stop, but is has essentially no affect on handling. The new LQ BMW's also do not do it anymore apparently - they spin accessories in the opposite direction to lessen the effect.

- Mark

I should have said porpoise, as it was a stem to stern movement. I know they roll about to the side and are unnerving when bent over...smooth throttle is rewarded.

 

[autoteach]

Horse hockey...

I don't think that's what Autoteach is talking about at all. He's been around long enough, and ridden enough, to know about torque reaction, crankshaft orientation, etc. He's worked in shops on vehicles, Mark, rather than just post on forums about 'em.

I think he's talking about one of the same things that drove me nuts on my last BMW - a 2002 R1150R, which was essentially a shorter suspension G/S - that is the weird fore-and-aft "rocking" caused by that stupidly short, highly-angled swingarm and the odd tiny bit of pro-dive that BMW built into the front Telelever to help try and make it *feel* more like a conventionally suspended motorcycle. Both made the bike incredibly sensitive to small throttle changes, and did make it rock fore-and-aft - *NOT* just side-to-side as you're trying to imply - when you make throttle changes, say in mid-corner.

IMHO it's that inanely short, moronically highly-angled swingarm that makes the friggin' things so hobby-horse pitch-sensitive. BMW can tout their horn all they want about their self-propagandized "Paralever" and make their erroneous claims that it "eliminates" shaft-drive jacking, but as with most things BMW, their claims are far, far from the truth, or reality. Yamaha employs absolutely *NO* linkage in their shaft-drive systems and they do not experience shaft-drive jacking effects. All they do is set the pinion at a low incidence angle to the drive gear and *VIOLA'*, no effects. Of course using a long swingarm helps (as it does with other suspension dynamics), but I'll leave to the collective as to which is is a better, more elegant, and ultimately more logically engineered solution.

And lets not forget that a large part of BMW's shaft drive maladies and failures are a direct result of that idiotic "Paralever", which causes insane excessive angularity issues with the universal joints, splines, etc.

It's always been apparent you would much rather own and ride a BMW (or KTM), Mark... What puzzles me is why you don't just go and buy one.

Dallara



~

Yup, this is exaaaactly what I was talking about. We work on a lot of bikes, and plenty of BMW's. Right now I have a R1100R apart because of a rear main leak. Now, if you have ever replaced one of these seals, you would understand a few things. First, you would understand why it leaks (poor seal design, over complicated as usual, and requires "hand shaping" of the seal). second, why the dry clutch stands no chance against a wet clutch. third, with the weight and complexity of the engine and trans, why they must give up durability and reliability in other key areas (broken frames are a great example)....

I can keep going about the paratelewhogivesashitsalever, the aluminum swingarm pivot bolts that seize in the trans which is aluminum (well know high risk for galling), and the stupid design behind there clutch throwout pushrod...

I would be happy to admit when I am wrong, but so far the more modern (1100 and up) BMW's have been crap. would not own. On the otherhand, I would gladly own an older one, like the r90s, r100rs, or r50 that my boss owns. Funny thing, they are also repair queens. Just did over 800 in parts in the trans on the 100. So, any of you who wants one, you can have it. Take yer damn Ducs too.

 

[powder]

Yup, this is exaaaactly what I was talking about. We work on a lot of bikes, and plenty of BMW's. Right now I have a R1100R apart because of a rear main leak. Now, if you have ever replaced one of these seals, you would understand a few things. First, you would understand why it leaks (poor seal design, over complicated as usual, and requires "hand shaping" of the seal). second, why the dry clutch stands no chance against a wet clutch. third, with the weight and complexity of the engine and trans, why they must give up durability and reliability in other key areas (broken frames are a great example)....

I can keep going about the paratelewhogivesashitsalever, the aluminum swingarm pivot bolts that seize in the trans which is aluminum (well know high risk for galling), and the stupid design behind there clutch throwout pushrod...

I would be happy to admit when I am wrong, but so far the more modern (1100 and up) BMW's have been crap. would not own. On the otherhand, I would gladly own an older one, like the r90s, r100rs, or r50 that my boss owns. Funny thing, they are also repair queens. Just did over 800 in parts in the trans on the 100. So, any of you who wants one, you can have it. Take yer damn Ducs too.

Hey Mr. Lakeshore area, I bought a Passat TDI wagon over in your neck o da woods!

Yeah, Airheads rock.
Their new stuff is for the uber-rich. Rear main seal? Been there. Sucks. Try to do a brake fluid flush on a new one? Wtf...

 

[10 ER AY]

This is a touchy one for me. I favor Yamaha products. I have owned several (more than 10) Yamaha bikes, and also banners, signs, etc. I cheer for the company in all the racing series and so on.

All that being said, I owned a 2006 1200GS. I truly connected with that bike. It was the first bike that I felt as normal getting on it as I did a car or anything else. Rode it in the rain, snow, dirt, mountains - whatever just for the chance to ride it. I didnt have to change seats, handlebars, windscreens, or anything else. Just ride it... even though on long trips there was always that little thought in the back of your mind: "Is it going to start this time?" Even with all its problems, it was still a great bike. I could've dealt with the problems had it not been for unqualified/untrustworthy dealerships in my area. In the end that was the killer for me and it seems to be the same for a lot of people. Lack of competition in a market does not make the competitors step up their game. When dealerships/service departments know they have a captive audience, what incentive do they have to try harder? On 2 occasions I drove my bike all the way to Greenville, SC (about 200 miles away) to get service because I hated dealing with my local places THAT much.

Now the Super Tenere on the other hand... dead solid reliable. Its good -not great- at everything it does much the same way the GS was. They both have more power/capability than I have so thats a null point. But theres nothing about the Tenere that speaks to my soul the way the GS did. Maybe its because of having to make so many little adjustments to this or that little thing that distracts me from riding. In all fairness... maybe I've just gotten older??

Whatever it is, I wont be getting rid of the Tenere any time soon. It's a good bike and I enjoy it. But to answer the question, its not a simple answer for me...

If the two bikes were on the showroom floor and I could get the GS equipped like I got my Tenere for the same price, I think I'd go with the GS... but I'd also have to be moving away from Atlanta.

If the two bikes were used, all things equal (price & features) I would take the Tenere.

 

[KicknGravel_Chris]

Before buying the Tenere I went back and forth between the BMW F800 GS Trophy and the Tenere. After long looks at both bikes I decided on the Tenere for a few reasons. One, I test rode the Tenere and loved it and was unable to test ride the BMW cause the shop in town didn't let people test ride those bikes for some reason. Two, my wife and I do a lot of camping and exploring and 1200cc I though would get us around better without any questions. Three, we do a lot of long distance riding and the two piece seat is way more comfortable. Four, I didn't want to mess with a chain. I could keep going and going about why I made the choice I made but all that matters is I am very happy with my purchase a love making thar payment. Oddly enough my really good friend got a new bike the exact same day as I got mine. He bought a GSA. I've ridden that bike I don't know how many times and still prefer the Tenere. With these two great bikes I think it comes down to your personality. Tenere people seem to be more fun to be around and easy going to me. I just don't get that same feeling from GS riders, there are exceptions though my best friend rides one. Either way your on two wheels camping, exploring, or just going to work and having fun there both great bikes but I'd rather be getting dirty than parked out front of a Starbucks.

 

[snakebitten]

..................... Tenere people seem to be more fun to be around and easy going to me. I just don't get that same feeling from GS riders, there are exceptions though my best friend rides one.

We will see. Going to Colorado?

I actually think you might be right to some degree. I've been on this board since BEFORE the S10 arrived in the states. So I have had plenty of time to get to know the "virtual" personality of most that are here. There might be a few that don't take to me, ::013:: But for the most part, I have taken to them.

The funny thing is that a few of my favorites are very much different in REAL persona than virtual. Meeting them in person completes the story.
Believe me, we all have a LOT in common.

I suspect it's gonna be a great get together. Faces with nicks.