Soliciting Input - Suspension Upgrades

[Firefight911]

10% of the available travel of 190mm. I'm quite happy with that on the rear with the 850 in/lb spring in there now.

I'm utilizing the full travel and the compliance is quite good. Under g outs I do get some harshness at the front right at full compression. A bit more air gap with some other adjustments would help this but I am there only 2 - 5% of the time so I am not going to worry about it too much. I do need more playing around at the front to get my static dialed but that's not too difficult to do with either more base preload or I may step up to a 1.0 spring set. We'll see.

I don't think a lighter spring set would serve me well. I'm 215 lbs before I put my riding gear on and I do not want to blow through my stroke too quick.




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[avc8130]

10% of the available travel of 190mm. I'm quite happy with that on the rear with the 850 in/lb spring in there now.

I'm utilizing the full travel and the compliance is quite good. Under g outs I do get some harshness at the front right at full compression. A bit more air gap with some other adjustments would help this but I am there only 2 - 5% of the time so I am not going to worry about it too much. I do need more playing around at the front to get my static dialed but that's not too difficult to do with either more base preload or I may step up to a 1.0 spring set. We'll see.

I don't think a lighter spring set would serve me well. I'm 215 lbs before I put my riding gear on and I do not want to blow through my stroke too quick.




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If you have TOO MUCH static sag in the front you need a SOFTER spring and more preload.

What oil height are you running currently?

That 850 in/lb is VERY STIFF for your weight. Generally you want 2-8mm of static sag. Anything more and your spring rate is usually "too stiff". I am running a 750 in/lb and I am 250lbs. I have EDIT: 50mm of rider sag with 6mm of static sag.

With myself AND my wife on the bike, 10" pot holes in the dirt weren't using the full travel of the rear. Damping has A LOT to do with it...

IF the bike were bottoming too easily in the rear, I would firm up my high speed compression to resist. Than I would have a bike that didn't bottom, yet still maintained compliance over the small nuances in the pavement as I am leaned over like a hooligan on a gixxer.

ac

 

[Firefight911]

Lots of good info back and forth.

So as not to intimidate some, I offer the following link so everyone has a start point to get an idea what AC and I are talking about.

http://www.superplushsuspension.com/a-techsag.htm





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[Z06]

Lots of good info back and forth.

So as not to intimidate some, I offer the following link so everyone has a start point to get an idea what AC and I are talking about.

http://www.superplushsuspension.com/a-techsag.htm

Not intimidating but, confusing as I have said before. Most suspension tuners I have talked to including Super Plush recommend 5 to 10 percent static sag. Ac and i guess Soltec are recommending 1 to 4 percent? Last time ac posted a rear spring rate it was 700 lbs. Now he says it is 750. What is it? Doesn,t give me a warm fuzzy feeling about the Penske group buy.




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[avc8130]

EDIT: Got confused, sorry. ::003::

I had a 700 in/lb spring on my Penske with their first attempt. Rider sag: 57mm, Static sag: 4mm.

I was PERFECTLY happy with the setup. However, Penske wanted to get me into the next spring rate so I wouldn't run into a "topped out" situation when I put some luggage and cargo on, adjusted preload and headed out for a trip. They felt (and I agreed) that I would wind up with "0" static sag.

They swapped me to a 750 in/lb spring. Now I am running Rider sag: 50mm, Static sag: 6mm based on their suggestions. At my weight (250lbs) I was definitely between rates (700/750). I'm not sure why that would hurt your "warm and fuzzy feeling". Penske didn't have a baseline for the bike. They took their best shot and got it "right". However, with the luggage capability of this bike it is important to have a little "in reserve". Their suggestion and tweak provided just that. I am sure you had more than 1 tuning session with Super Plush to get to the point you have the Ohlins.

This definitely has the bike turning in FAST. I might back the preload off a tad and head back to the 57mm "magic" mark everyone is stuck on just to see what happens. The slight bit less sag shifts the travel a bit, there is less droop available, but more compression.

Remember, suspension is a "YOU" setup. What works for each rider is all that matters. There are some "rules of thumb" and general "guidelines" to get you CLOSE. From there you fine tune until the bike does EXACTLY what you want it to.

FWIW, 10% static sag is generally a "dirt bike" rule of thumb. It goes along with 4" of rider sag in dirt bike setup. 5-10mm static sag is generally the accepted road setup, associated with 30-35mm rider sag on street bikes. Somewhere in there is the "magic". I have been researching what static sag actually provides for the rider.

Firefight is THRILLED with his setup, as am I. There are many ways to get the suspension equation "right". One thing that is clear: Yamaha got it "WRONG".

ac
ac

 

[Firefight911]

No editing done here. My previous posts are untouched and unedited by me.

One thing that needs to be discerned in your set up is what your goal is. For me, it was a dual sport response versus a sport bike response. That's where the percentage of sag comes in. Sport bike always put me closer to 5% static and 25% race sag and dual sport uses the 10%, 30% numbers. That's where the 57mm comes from for me. 30% of 190mm available travel.

You are very correct about the "you" portion of suspension set up. This is the subjective part of tuning. I don't worry too much about the subjective part until I have the objective part. That's the importance of getting the numbers down and knowing your goals.

Yes, I have had several "sessions" with James and several hours of correspondence as we developed what I have. I just think it speaks volumes that James went to such lengths to learn the bike and what the original engineers had in mind and then methodically work through the set up the way he did. He has the complete service manual and has had many discussions with his contacts through Yamaha and Ohlin's to put this together how he did.


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[Z06]

If you have TOO MUCH static sag in the front you need a SOFTER spring and more preload.

What oil height are you running currently?

That 850 in/lb is VERY STIFF for your weight. Generally you want 2-8mm of static sag. Anything more and your spring rate is usually "too stiff". I am running a 750 in/lb and I am 250lbs. I have 57mm of rider sag with 6mm of static sag.

With myself AND my wife on the bike, 10" pot holes in the dirt weren't using the full travel of the rear. Damping has A LOT to do with it...

IF the bike were bottoming too easily in the rear, I would firm up my high speed compression to resist. Than I would have a bike that didn't bottom, yet still maintained compliance over the small nuances in the pavement as I am leaned over like a hooligan on a gixxer.

ac

Read your numbers in this post then read your numbers in your response to my post a hour later and you will see the confusing part. They change each time you post them.

 

[avc8130]

No editing done here. My previous posts are untouched and unedited by me.

One thing that needs to be discerned in your set up is what your goal is. For me, it was a dual sport response versus a sport bike response. That's where the percentage of sag comes in. Sport bike always put me closer to 5% static and 25% race sag and dual sport uses the 10%, 30% numbers. That's where the 57mm comes from for me. 30% of 190mm available travel.

You are very correct about the "you" portion of suspension set up. This is the subjective part of tuning. I don't worry too much about the subjective part until I have the objective part. That's the importance of getting the numbers down and knowing your goals.

Yes, I have had several "sessions" with James and several hours of correspondence as we developed what I have. I just think it speaks volumes that James went to such lengths to learn the bike and what the original engineers had in mind and then methodically work through the set up the way he did. He has the complete service manual and has had many discussions with his contacts through Yamaha and Ohlin's to put this together how he did.


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SOMEONE must be editing them...or putting words in your mouth when they "quote" them.

EDIT: I think Z06 accidentally put HIS response in YOUR quote.

I am still trying to learn what the static sag has to do with the setup "subjectively". I don't think it has ANY effect other than a method to determine the spring rate.

Neither method is "wrong". There is more than 1 spring rate that will work for a particular rider on a particular bike. I don't regularly hit huge bumps or holes with my Tenere, so I was looking for a more "road" biased setup. My "dirt" is generally "unpaved roads". I wanted the softer spring rate to err towards max compliance (read: traction) on the street. If your "dirt" is a higher percentage and more extreme, the stiffer spring rate probably suits you better.

With regards to your excessive FRONT static sag, how do you plan to fix this? What oil height did you guys settle on?

ac

 

[avc8130]

Read your numbers in this post then read your numbers in your response to my post a hour later and you will see the confusing part. They change each time you post them.

Z06,

What you need to remember is that both FireFight and I are ACTIVELY tuning our suspensions. My numbers do change regularly, depending on exactly which configuration I am speaking about.

Past configuration:
700 in/lb spring
Rider sag: 57mm
Static sag: 4mm

Current configuration:
750 in/lb spring
Rider sag: 50mm
Static sag: 6mm

I apologize if my presentation is confusing.

Notice 2 things: I changed both the spring rate AND the rider sag. Also note that the static sag will NOT change as much as the rider sag for any particular adjustment. IE, if/when I try the ~57mm rider sag w/ the 750 spring, I anticipate ~7mm static sag. That would be a 7mm change in rider sag resulting in a 1mm change in static sag.

Have no fear with the Penske group buy. If you KNOW you want a stiffer spring, tell Nick. Penske/Stoltec can supply you with whatever rate spring you request. There is a specific line on the order form for just this purpose.

Remember: the base spring rate AND preload set your "sag". The purpose of setting the sag is to make sure you have an appropriate amount of travel in each direction (bumps and drops) as well as maintaining the bike's geometry when laden. Preload does NOT affect spring rate.

ac

 

[Yamahasage]

Ohlins spring chart.

 

[ADKsuper10]

ive ridden many bikes off road/ on road, i think its good to be able to set up your suspension with all the different settings on the super10.
ive had a little play around here and there but ended up putting it all to standard settings as i found this was best for everything, im 16st, and even with debi and all the gear loaded on it just feels nice and planted on any situation.
i go out with my mates and blast around too riding as hard as they do on there sport bikes, and feel totally confident with the handling. i cannot see any reason in changing or upgrading the suspension at all. i think yamaha have done a great job on this bike in that area, all in all a great package.
DID I MENTION I LUV MY BIKE ::025:: ::022:: ::022:: ::022::

Spasm - I know this thread is old - but you and I am the same weight as you (226lbs) and I find the way I have it setup a little harsh. You said you have everything set to standard settings. I understand setting the compression and rebound to standard - what do you have your front and rear shock preload set to? I would like to try your settings. Thanks!

 

[EricV]

I'm not sure Spasm is around any more.

There are some good threads on setting up suspension on the forum. You've gotten some great advise on the most applicable thread. Single best thing you can do is buy a spring that suits your weight and load, then you can back off the pre-load and still have a decent sag. Sag is not the be-all end-all at 30%, that's a great general purpose guide line though. How it rides is more important than the number. A spring only costs around $100. Fork springs would be good too, again, for your weight and load. Again, not too spendy compared to full on custom suspension.

I ran a 1100 lb spring on the stock shock for years on my Gen I, (2012), bike w/o issues. I was 260+ in gear and running fully loaded with panniers, fuel cell and a gallon of water. I am admittedly not as sensitive to minor suspension changes as some.

As for the pre-load settings, adjust a couple clicks softer and take a ride. Repeat with different changes over the same stretch of road and see what feels best to you. You should quickly sort out which direction of adjustment helps.

 

[hogmolly]

I can add this input about the front fork. The compression damping is pretty harsh. I run my compression damping adjuster 1 click from fully out and it is still a bit harsh. I think the oil holes/oil weight must be a bit small and/or to thick. Rebound on the top I run maybe 4-5 clicks from fully in. Fork preload almost all in.

My rear has been respringed/valved by Terry of NorWest. It is 1000lb spring and damping is set to a balance between rear float and rear harsh for the roads I ride.

I think overall my bike rides as well as several of my Beemers with full-on Ohlins/Wilburs.

 

[ADKsuper10]

Thanks guys. I have the rear shock set to "Hard" with the rebound at an almost standard setting. From what I am seeing I am just over the 30% race sag with just me on it wearing riding gear (i weigh 226lbs)

Sounds like I will have to get beefier springs for front and back. I don't feel I need a custom setup as I don't go offroad much but I will want to carrry a passenger and luggage at some point.