Soliciting Input - Suspension Upgrades

[Firefight911]

We are all set for Thursday, February 2 to go to work. The springs are in and James and I have emailed back and forth a fair amount to where we feel comfortable to get our hands dirty!!

I'll try and take pictures of everything we do/see/find.

Looking forward to completing this last, most important, update to the bike.

Shit!! This will conclude all things Super Tenere farkle/upgrade for mine. It's time to ride, ride, ride and add another bike to the stable. Hmmmm, WR250? DR650? Triumph Scrambler? Triumph Bonneville? Ural? Oh buy, the choices, the choices, the choices!

 

[3putt]

TE449, TE630??

 

[Firefight911]

TE449, TE630??

I'm not buying any more BMWs!!!

The Beta appeals to me though!!!

 

[Firefight911]

OK, I went out and got some new base numbers now the new springs are in the forks.

Here's some info;

Front springs are linear rate and I have .95kg/mm in there. This has absolutely transformed the feel of the bike! It no longer has the numb feeling to the front end as I felt it did stock. I have a ways to go yet with the suspension but it is light years ahead of where we were!! Light years.

The springs that I got were shorter than the stock ones so we created PVC spacers to match the free length of the stock shocks and installed those. The preload adjusters are run all the way out. With this set up, the race sag number came to 56 mm. Our target was 30% of the total 190mm available or 57 mm. Seems we got that pretty close, huh?!

Now it is important to understand that the difference felt with the change to the front end was so great, so hugely great, we stopped there for now. The forks have new oil with a new weight at the stock height but that is it. We have not messed with the internal adjustments yet. We are going to play around with the available adjustments and the new oil in conjunction with the springs before we go to the next step, if it is necessary.

As for the rear, it is still stock. We are looking at just replacing the spring as the shock itself really isn't that bad from a control perspective. The spring itself is an entirely different matter!

Again, there is 190 mm total travel available, our target is 30% or 57 mm. The rear race sag is coming in at 78 mm. Way too much!! My previous numbers were better than this but there have been a lot of changes to the bike - side cases and rack, rear top case and rack, front springs, etc. Plus I measured with my usual riding compliment which includes tools, etc.

More to follow but I can assure you, changing to the linear rate spring has really changed the action to the front end. The jarring has been reduced beyond belief!!!!

I'm looking forward to the next step and then getting another stock S10 to ride back to back to really feel the difference.

 

[~TABASCO~]

great info.. keep up the good work... looking forward to keeping up with what you find.. ::008:: Suspension is something I will be looking at one day down the road.. I need stiffer with out kicking me off the bike 'on road' I have mine about full stiff front and rear now..

 

[fredz43]

Thanks for that feedback, Phil.

When you say the rear sag is coming in at 78 mm. Ist hat with the preload adjuster cranked all the way up?

Just so we are all speakiing the same language, is race sag the sag with you sitting on the bike with all riding gear. etc?

Thanks,

 

[3putt]

What weight oil did you go with? I stayed with the OEM.

 

[Firefight911]

The 78mm race sag is with all the preload there is cranked in. Yes, race sag is with rider on. Static sag is bike weight on suspension only.

5 weight oil is in there right now. Too soon to know what that is going to do yet. I hurt my back, have had several doctor appointments, and family obligations that have kept me off the bike since I got home with it. Should be able to work it up some within the next week. Lord knows the weather is not stopping me! Mid 60s, light breeze, sunny. Grrrrr!!

 

[3putt]

Finally checked my rear sag. 77mm, that is about 1 mark firmer than standard mark. 30% would be about 57mm, so I guess I am little under sprung also. I checked mine without panniers, but top case and no riding gear (street clothes).

Front is 47mm which is about 25%.

Update: Racetech has 8" x 2.25" ID springs for $119, but I just ordered the HyperCoil 800 lb/in spring for $85 free shipping. Why, because it is dark BLUE. LOL. Plan to fab a 9mm spacer when I get the spring and pull the shock to get better measurements.

 

[Firefight911]

I am really liking the front so far. No harshness any more, good linear stroke action, and the thing tracks very well. My old lack of confidence in teh front is still there but I definitely am finding that it is fading with miles. I attacked a nice longer sweeper on ramp this morning on the way to work and found that the front end was talking to me like it never has. Still no off road but that is coming too.

As for the rear, we have not found any available springs that will work. I'm not modding a spring, etc. so I am going to price out some rear shocks and make a decision and go with a new unit unless I can find a suitable spring to go in there without mods.

Once I get the rear closer in balance with the front I am confident things will really come together. I can't stress enough the transformation felt with the front change of spring and oil so far. Wow!

 

[3putt]

Turns out that hyper coil also sells spring dividers so got one. The flange is .38" or about exactly what we need to add to the 8" spring. I will put it in the lathe and machine off the short side and use as a spacer.

http://www.tntperformance.net/25-Spring-Divider-MRP2SLDR.htm

 

[Firefight911]

I suppose it is time to update this thread with the latest information for those following along;

After soliciting and really getting some help for the rear in regard to info, etc. TigerOne really stepped up and took off running with fixing the rear. Here's the thread.....

http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=3495.msg

At this point, and after many more emails and discussions with Super Plush this is what I am doing -

It would be the "best" choice to just go ahead and replace the rear shock assembly and dial it in from the build for me BUT, that would be quite pricey to say the least. I will be doing this once the bike has about 25,000 miles on it but not today. I am actually relatively happy with the rear shock in regard to its ability to control the bike action. The problem is that there is just not enough spring. For comparison, it's gonna cost me around 15% of the cost of a shock to respring. That is money, gas, and something else at this point!

To re spring the rear I have two choices;

1 - Have a custom spring made as the dimensions of the shock body are such that there is no spring out there currently available for it. The same dilemma as we had with the front fork springs,

2 - Use an SAE 8" x 2.25" ID spring and shim it appropriately to offset the larger ID and shorter spring. This is what TigerOne has already done. After much discussion and thought, I have also chosen this route. Hyperco has readily available springs in 800 lb/in or 900 lb/in rates. Of course, a more appropriate rate for me, based on our calculations, falls between somewhere between this so I had to dig around until I found that Eibach offers an 8" x 2.25" spring with an 851.2 lb/in rate. This is what I have ordered for myself.

Once the shim and spring arrive, about two weeks, I will again journey down to San Francisco and work with James at Super Plush and test this set up out. We expect the possibility of needing to shim the spring some to get the static sag better while still being able to obtain the appropriate race sag but are confident we can do it utilizing the stock shock body and the new spring.

Once the rear is in, we will get good baseline numbers established and from there on out we hope to be able to focus on the damping side of the world. Not sure what is going to happen there just yet but you can be confident that I will keep everyone in the loop as we move forward.

At this point, I can tell you that James at Super Plush has followed through on everything we have discussed and decided to do. He has gone above and beyond to help "develop" this suspension for me/us. He has gone so far as obtaining a genuine Yamaha tech manual so he can keep everything tightened up correctly and will have proper numbers for us as we go and he truly shows knowledgeable enthusiasm toward the project.

I think that is the Reader's Digest and Paul Harvey to date. More to follow in a couple weeks after I get back from my trip to Death Valley to go have fun with Jimmy Lewis at the ALTRider - Taste of Dakar event. Just put Metzeler Karoo 90% off/10% on knobbie tires on for it. This is gonna be fun...or I'm gonna die. I'll let ya know when I get back, if I get back.

 

[3putt]

Super, look forward to hearing what your suspension guru says and does on your setup. Nice to have some professional help on the suspension being shared. Thanks.

 

[Firefight911]

A nudge to the thread and an update;

Not a whole lot has happened, actually. I ordered the rear spring and waited, and waited, and waited. SPS checked in to what was going on through Eibach as they had told us it would be a two week turn around. Well, as of this last Wednesday, Eibach had not even made a production run on the 851 lb/in spring we ordered. Soooooo, this really left us with no viable option other than 1 - wait more, or 2 - Ohlin's. I'll take door #2 Bob!!

I know this has made James at SPS happy. All along he has been fantastic in being methodical in our approach to what we are doing but he has consistently cautioned me about his concern for the hydraulic capability of the rear shock in its stock form, let alone increasing the spring rate by 100 lb/in with an aftermarket spring. I now have to agree with James as I truly could feel the rear end working its tail off on my Death Valley trip. Running at speed (35 average) through the sand filled washes and trail undulations where your bike moves beneath you, control is needed, and your suspension is traveling through it full range of motion from top out to bottom out through out the ride really gave me good insight about where we are (vastly improved over stock) and where we need to go (MUST GET BALANCE FORE AND AFT before we can go anywhere else). James and I had some lengthy discussions via email on my front end findings and the imbalance fore and aft due to the soft spring in the rear. He has confirmed many of my feelings on the set up and, likewise, asked to withhold more judgment until we can get the front and rear properly balanced with the Ohlin's. I do get the sense that James wants to play with the hydraulics up front a bit too. One thing I definitely felt was the need for more rebound damping and less hi speed compression damping. James initial thought is to reduce the oil level, thereby increasing the air gap and "reducing" the rate a bit up front when the fork reaches full compression. Although I was able to utilize the full stroke of the front fork (not happening with the stock set up), it becomes a bit harsh near its limit and by increasing the air gap we will get a bit more use from the last bit of travel available. This will directly translate to more control and increased plushness. Once we get the Ohlin's we will be going through the whole set up to properly balance the bike and go to the next step of drilling down some good hydraulic action. I am also wondering if there may be another front spring swap needed? Perhaps a higher rate front? James will have to determine this once the Ohlin's is installed.

Tabasco has partnered with me to have a spacer made on hi quality machining tools, duplicatable, and of the highest quality Jaxon is known for. This spacer is still on its way to me. I will get a spring for the stock shock, verify the spacer and Tabasco will be able to accommodate some spring swaps utilizing this spacer for those who would like to try going this route. I think this is an excellent way to go whether you are over sprung or under sprung. It's a very economical way of improving your suspension ten fold.

Also, please temper my highly critical comments with the fact that I have a particular feel I am after and I have a background, Type A personality, and an OCD tendency to perfection and very critical fine tuning.

A bit rambly but it's getting late here at the Firehouse and, well, we're busy!

 

[3putt]

Sounds great Phil. I was always wondering about the front spring being same rate as mine (.95) and you are quite a bit heavier. It feels perfect to me, but I can take it all the way to the bottom, not harsh but just by checking the ziptie after a ride. Rear is perfect for fast turn ins, and handling on road, not sure what it will do off road yet. Also the firmer rear now promotes a front wheel lift in 1st and 2nd on hard accel out of corners.

 

[Firefight911]

Did you just call me fat? ::013::

This was early on in the weekend before I got in to the rough stuff.

 

[3putt]

Did you just call me fat? ::013::

Naaa. Probably just a gravity thing with CA.

 

[Firefight911]

I know it's been a while since I updated so here is a tiny update.

The shock is sitting on the work bench waiting on me. Work has been all consuming (five 24 hours shifts this week, for example). I am off to a ride with good friends next week/weekend so won't be getting to it until the week after that. I am scheduled to spend the day with James at SPS on Friday, April 27. We are going to swap shocks and do some set up work to get the balance better front to rear.

Once we're done I'll be doing a complete base line reveal and let everyone know all the data I have - settings, valving, spring rates, etc.

Sorry for the delay for those who have been following this but life took a hold in a big way once I got back from Death Valley and I just haven't had time to deal with this very important topic.

 

[tubebender]

::017::

 

[tomatocity]

What Carl said.