Soliciting Input - Suspension Upgrades

[Firefight911]

OK, I thought it best at this point to go ahead and start a new thread on this topic.

First off, the disclaimers;

I have no dog in this hunt, I am a Fire Captain working in a professional fire department so I have no connection, etc., etc.

I AM actively pursuing the idea of getting a solid foundation laid and a relationship built to hopefully provide a quality suspension shop for my needs as well as a place to go for all of us Super Tenere owners who would like to do some suspension work to improve the ride, dial it in for your personal use, set it up for your weight and style, etc.

As such, I have reached out to Super Plush Suspension located in San Francisco, CA.

Their link - http://www.superplushsuspension.com/

They are quite well known for their KTM work and in my discussions to date have expressed a desire to delve in to our world of Yamaha. First things first, they need to understand our bike a bit. To this end, I have arranged to go to their shop and spend the day with James on Monday, January 9th. James will be reviewing the bike, testing it, and otherwise going over it to ascertain if he can help us, what it would take, as well as get a perspective of where it is in terms of stock set up, etc.

I know what I like, I have a professional road race background from racing for Vance and Hines in the late 80s and early 90s on Yamaha FZR-600s so I can talk the talk as well as walk the walk which will either get me in trouble or help out. We'll see!!

My issues at hand are;

1. The bike is under sprung for my weight. I weigh 215 lbs and this is before I get dressed in all my riding gear.

2. The bike has too much hi speed compression on the front end. It is jarring on sharp edged, hi speed hits.

3. I am having a difficult time gaining a good front to rear balance. This is most likely starting with the spring issue but certainly is exacerbated with the damping issues.

What I am asking of this thread is to somewhat become a repository/documentation area of information that we can all learn from, I can take to Super Plush, and perhaps, we can all benefit from in the area of suspension.

To capture as much information as possible in as clean a format let's try to make sure you include;

Rider weight (be clear if this is dressed in gear or not)

Bike use (Style, percentage off road/on road, 2 up)

Tires being run (knobbie versus street does make a difference, for example as well as pressures)

Current set up (pre load, compression, rebound) Please use the terms and language of our owner's manual so it is consistent and clear without need for translation.

Issues (too harsh, wallows, perfect, too much/too little ______fill in blank) Details!!!

Any mods done to suspension (Traxxion Dynamic, different fork springs, different shock, oil weight/height change)

Additional loads carried, etc. that would affect your set up.

Anything else that could be of value to anyone reading this or Super Plush, etc. Yes, if you feel the stock suspension is the bee's knees then that is valuable information. All I ask is that this not denigrate in to a pissing match of good, bad, Silver Surfer, Captain America, Underroos are better. EVERY opinion that is offered has value and I would hope we could all respect others' opinions as well. Asking questions to get more information is encouraged. Just do it with an open mind, please. I don't want this to be a polarizing oil type thread.

I am forwarding this link to Super Plush. If this is something that works out I will invite them/ask them to post up in the Vendor section with any details of what they can do. I will also post up here on my findings (good and bad), how it is to deal with them, etc.

Again, I need to reiterate, I am receiving nothing for this from them (I will post up if they offer me anything for being a guinea pig, etc. to maintain full disclosure). I just feel that there is strength in numbers and if all our bikes can be improved in the one area that can net some of the biggest gains (excepting you becoming a better, more skilled rider) then why not? I will offer that Super Plush has an ongoing special that has been posted through their Facebook page that indicates they are offering a 10% off on all labor for work done prior to January 15.

Facebook link - http://www.facebook.com/SuperPlushSuspension

Ok, what ya got?

 

[fredz43]

Ok, thanks. I'll start.

Weight 180 in street clothes.
Sag set at 60 mm front and back.
Front compression and rebound all the way out (soft).
Rear rebound set 12 turns from soft.
Stock Bridgestones.
95% on road, but would do more rough road/off road exploring if it were a more compliant ride.

I find it fine for sport touring, but off road, rough road or anywhere with sharp bumps, I feel that it has too much high speed compression damping. I would like a more compliant ride front and back over surfaces such as this.

I did a full Ricor Suspension upgrade front and back on my 08 KLR and feel that it was a better ride off road or over sharp bumps than my S10 is.

 

[YamaPA]

I just posted some comments regarding the suspension here.... http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=1751.msg55265#new Post no. 24.

You said....
1. The bike is under sprung for my weight. I weigh 215 lbs and this is before I get dressed in all my riding gear.

Undersprung for what purpose? Road? Dirt? I weight the same and can get a traditional 30% sag (you may be slightly more or less depending on how you like your bike to be setup) with the stock boingers no problem. Just remember, you dealing with 600 lbs of bike and 7-8 inches of travel. You are not going to be launching 10 foot drops offroad without massive suspension bottoming. The bike is surely undersprung for dirt riding by anyone who is reasonably dirt competent, but if you set a 600 lbs bike up for dirt blasting, its going to suck on the street. There has to be a compromise.

Regarding Super Plush Suspenion (and James S. I dont use last names online).... I have his work (shim stack only) on my KTM 950 SE on the rear shock. It's a good setup. I used others, specifically Moto Pro Suspension for the forks. Overall, the bike is great. If I recall correctly, Super Plush does NOT change the pistons on the KTMs, just the valving. That may be different or will need to be different on the S10. I understand that one pays for one's research, but the cost of shims is quite inexpensive and to pay a couple hundred for someone to revalve my forks/shocks, after shipping them across the country and back for another $200 round trip, aint going to happen from this guy. Dont get me wrong, I paid James S. for his data/research for my KTM when I just bought the shims from him (and I havent shared the secret forumla as I promised him) but he has a good background with the big KTMs. That takes time and effort. For me, sending suspension components across the country just is not worth it when I have someone local who charges me peanuts to revalve or service suspension components.

I shall follow this thread with interest, but as I said in my post no. 24 at the above link, for how I use the Tenere, it works just fine. I realize a compromise has to be made with this bike.

 

[YamaPA]

Yup, suspension for one person "works fine" for another it "doesnt work". Suspension stuff is never cheap in terms of time or money. Thus my rationale for not shipping components across the country to get suspension work done. Too much time and too much money. All too often the "tester" (guinea pig) for a suspension development project knows nothing about suspension, except that it "feels" better than stock. Way too many people do NOT understand what their suspension is doing underneath them and how to convey that "feeling" to their suspension tuner. Some people can ride fast as hell, but cant explain crap. It's amazing how suspension "conversations" go.

One may as well figure it's going to be at least twice to get it correct...that's two suspension removals, two shippings, two labor bills, two return shippings, two insurance, and two reinstalls. I have NEVER EVER had a suspension delivered just how I want it the first try. I've had Race Tech front suspension specifications followed to a T, but then you could walk along the bike at 2-3 mph, slam the front brake, and bottom the front suspension. What do you think happens at speed? And this was supposedly a PROVEN set-up. Ahhh, not quite. The PROVEN setups seem to be from shops that have LOTS AND LOTS of data and experience with a specific model MAINSTREAM bikes. The S10 is not a mainstream bike.....and will never be a mainstream bike. I am talking GSXR, Yamaha R models, Ninjas, CBRR....all the sport bikes as mainstream bikes.

I have Traxxion/Penske in my Goldwing. Like your issues with Super Plush, I had some relucatance by Traxxion to go outside thier normal Goldwing rear suspension setup... I was fought by Traxxion at thier Georgia shop when I requested my first FREE adjustment....but after it was done, those testers that the bike said "you know, I think I like that setup better". It' still not perfect for me, but the next service I will have them make a few more adjustments.

I just refuse to throw big wads of money any more on suspensions. I stay local, get the suspension close, and call it a day until the next service when it gets tweaked again...by the time I sell/trade the bike, it's usually damn close to spot on...LOL.

Personally, I think it is best to find a local suspension tuner you feel comfortable working with and go that route.

 

[Tremor38]

Re: Re: Soliciting Input - Suspension Upgrades

I stay local, get the suspension close, and call it a day until the next service when it gets tweaked again...by the time I sell/trade the bike, it's usually damn close to spot on...LOL.

And that's irony of it all. My last bike fit that case exactly. It was perfectly dailed-in just as I started to think about a new bike. I don't regret the process because I learned a great deal. Did my setup and subsequent adjustments myself with valves, shims and springs from Motopro. John at moto pro was always availble via email or phone to work through any concerns or questions. Other experiences may vary.

 

[Firefight911]

All good feedback so far.

As I said, I understand suspension, I've worked on them for years, I professionally road raced.

I've used PPS, Kyle, Race Tech, Lindemann, Wilber's, Ohlin's, EPM, and Fox to date on the various bikes I've played with for both street and track.

Yes, I have been able to dial my sag in with the stock set up but I am wound up nearly tight on the rear and the front is a big compromise due to the hi speed compression being too high, IMO. I am using the 30% for my numbers as well as it is a good compromise for the riding I am doing between road and dirt.

There is 190 mm(7.48 inches) of available travel for both front and rear on our bikes. the 30% number comes back as 57 mm based on this. Your rear settings indicates you are at 61 mm, your front 57 mm. Free sag should be roughly 10% of the available 190 mm. This comes back to 19mm. Your rear setting indicates you are at 25 mm, your front 44.

It appears that your front has quite a bit of free sag and doesn't alter all too much under rider sag. That is an area that raises a question POSSIBLY. 24% free sag is a fair amount. I know that I am running more sag at the front to compensate a bit for the excessive hi speed compression damping (it is a compromise)and as you show, your rider sag comes in pretty well.

Some variables can be linear rate versus progressive rate springs, a rising rate linkage in the rear, stiction, etc. Being able to dial in a number does not mean you have the right spring. This is where it is important to look at the big picture and free sag is part of it.

I like hearing the good and the bad on anyone who has dealt with an entity previously. It is of value. Let's also remember that I am in the investigative phase of this process;

To date, it took two weeks just to get a response back from SPS after calls, emails, and Facebook posts. Not a good first impression but the holiday time frame should be taken slightly in to account.

My riding buddy just had his bike reviewed and worked on some by James. A no show on the drop off appointment, he had someone else handle the pick up even after it was arranged to have James be there for discussion and game planning. His post work review was luke warm at best. This was a BMW with aftermarket suspension pieces front and rear. I have another friend who really liked his work on his KTM (I've ridden this bike extensively and it really works well in the suspension department) but he indicates some of the same as it relates to the hassle, etc. of shipping from a distance and most likely will not repeat the process for servicing needs. This friend is in Texas.

All that being said, I think it worthy to pursue an improvement if an improvement can reasonably be had. I have no intentions of throwing good money at a bad investment here. Just as much as I have been told by SPS that they want to evaluate if it is worth their while and to evaluate the base set up to see if it is beneficial to pursue is a very good thing to hear from them. They aren't just going to take our money to take it.

I do see the value of picking the brain of someone who does this all the time. One thing I know is that I haven't raced since 1992. I've ridden thousands upon thousands of miles on Japanese bikes, most sport bikes but a couple dual sports as well. I have ridden 20,000 plus miles a year on 8 different BMWs since 2001. Most of these had Telever, Paralever, and/or Duolever suspension. My G 650 X Challenge and F800GS were conventional along with all my other Japanese models, of course.

This has numbed and altered my ability to be as sharp as I once was as it related to suspension tuning. I have not, to date, gone out and done what I do a lot of the time when I really get going on suspension dialing and spend a whole day with my log book and tools on my test road and go screw around with my suspension settings through their full range. If you've never done this I HIGHLY recommend doing it. It's an excellent reminder for me and an excellent lesson for someone not experienced in suspension and the effects of changing the various settings.

They have this link. Let's hope they are paying attention.

Oh, and if you can follow me off road you are pretty good at being able to take your time! I am in no hurry whatsoever when off road!

 

[JohnB]

I weight the same and can get a traditional 30% sag (you may be slightly more or less depending on how you like your bike to be setup) with the stock boingers no problem.

Would you mind sharing those settings with us? ::017::

 

[Firefight911]

Would you mind sharing those settings with us? ::017::

Follow yamaPA's link at the top of the post you quote. They are all right there. ::008::

 

[Firefight911]

A couple additions from what I could do here at the fire house without my competent assistant (AKA, hot wifey) or my log book.

I'm 215 lbs pre dressed weight. I am pretty fully farkled. Search my posts from my farkle thread to see what I have.

Front

Free sag = 40mm
Compression = 14 clicks from max
Rebound = 9 clicks from max
Preload = even to 4th line

Rear

Rebound = 13 clicks from max
Preload = Full hard minus 2 rounds

YamaPA, I would venture to say that you and I are set up very close to the same.

 

[Tremor38]

Obvously you know your suspension, so one niggly detail for clarification. When you refer to 'compression' being too high do you actually mean 'compression dampening?'

Thanks.

 

[spasm]

ive ridden many bikes off road/ on road, i think its good to be able to set up your suspension with all the different settings on the super10.
ive had a little play around here and there but ended up putting it all to standard settings as i found this was best for everything, im 16st, and even with debi and all the gear loaded on it just feels nice and planted on any situation.
i go out with my mates and blast around too riding as hard as they do on there sport bikes, and feel totally confident with the handling. i cannot see any reason in changing or upgrading the suspension at all. i think yamaha have done a great job on this bike in that area, all in all a great package.
DID I MENTION I LUV MY BIKE ::025:: ::022:: ::022:: ::022::

 

[Blue_eyes]

ive ridden many bikes off road/ on road, i think its good to be able to set up your suspension with all the different settings on the super10.
ive had a little play around here and there but ended up putting it all to standard settings as i found this was best for everything, im 16st, and even with debi and all the gear loaded on it just feels nice and planted on any situation.
i go out with my mates and blast around too riding as hard as they do on there sport bikes, and feel totally confident with the handling. i cannot see any reason in changing or upgrading the suspension at all. i think yamaha have done a great job on this bike in that area, all in all a great package.
DID I MENTION I LUV MY BIKE ::025:: ::022:: ::022:: ::022::

Tell me about it!? ::025:: ::025:: ::025:: ::018:: ::018:: ::018::

 

[Blue_eyes]

I've started fiddeling with the suspension settings since I think the front is too harsh for me (73 kilo's), and set the front spring preload to 7.
I set the compression damping force to 8 clicks in direction B (soft) and here comes my question. I read that most folks that think the front is too harsh also set the REBOUND DAMPING force to soft.....

As I understand it this (set the REBOUND DAMPING force to soft) means that the rebound DAMPING (the moving back UP / outward) of the front is less inhibited, thus it rebounds FASTER....

I would expect that if I want the front to be more plush, I would want to set the rebound DAMPING to hard (damping the rebound so it does not move outward that fast, thus "cushioning/damping" the force with which the front moves back out/up and so absorbing the bump...).

Please let me know your take on this. I've set the rebound damping to 2 clicks from hard (2 clicks in direction B).

EDIT: Used Google, and found the answer. My assumption is correct. See the following clear article: http://londonbikers.com/articles/1616/suspension-setup-demystified

 

[Tremor38]

I've started fiddeling with the suspension settings since I think the front is too harsh for me (73 kilo's), and set the front spring preload to 7.
I set the compression damping force to 8 clicks in direction B (soft) and here comes my question. I read that most folks that think the front is too harsh also set the REBOUND DAMPING force to soft.....

As I understand it this (set the REBOUND DAMPING force to soft) means that the rebound DAMPING (the moving back UP / outward) of the front is less inhibited, thus it rebounds FASTER....

I would expect that if I want the front to be more plush, I would want to set the rebound DAMPING to hard (damping the rebound so it does not move outward that fast, thus "cushioning/damping" the force with which the front moves back out/up and so absorbing the bump...).

Please let me know your take on this. I've set the rebound damping to 2 clicks from hard (2 clicks in direction B).

EDIT: Used Google, and found the answer. My assumption is correct. See the following clear article: http://londonbikers.com/articles/1616/suspension-setup-demystified

Dampening/Damping...po-tay-toe...pot-tah-toe ::025:: I'll stand-up and take a bow :-X It's just a collocation thing anyway 8)

 

[Blue_eyes]

Dampening/Damping...po-tay-toe...pot-tah-toe ::025:: I'll stand-up and take a bow :-X It's just a collocation thing anyway 8)

See http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/damped.html

And:

And I am Dutch....

 

[Tremor38]

See http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/damped.html

And:

And I am Dutch....

You didn't need to provide proof; I know you're right. The irony is that I've corrected others for using 'dampening' then I turn around and do the same thing! Word collocation is a tricky thing sometimes though...because if you look up the meanings of damping and dampening there is very little difference.

 

[Blue_eyes]

You didn't need to provide proof; I know you're right. The irony is that I've corrected others for using 'dampening' then I turn around and do the same thing! Word collocation is a tricky thing sometimes though...because if you look up the meanings of damping and dampening there is very little difference.

Ah, I missed that, as I saw in your last post in this topic you wrote dampening, so I assumed you thought I spelled it wrong.

Which I do not see as an issue as English is not my native tongue. So typo's are FOC

 

[fredz43]

As I understand it this (set the REBOUND DAMPING force to soft) means that the rebound DAMPING (the moving back UP / outward) of the front is less inhibited, thus it rebounds FASTER....

I would expect that if I want the front to be more plush, I would want to set the rebound DAMPING to hard (damping the rebound so it does not move outward that fast, thus "cushioning/damping" the force with which the front moves back out/up and so absorbing the bump...).

Hi Blue Eyes,

This is very interesting and I welcome discussion on this subject, as I hope to learn more about suspension adjustment, etc. I am one that feels that there is too much high speed compression damping in my forks. That is, when I hit a sharp object that causes the forks to move up at high speed, I feel a jolt. In an effort to see if I could soften this jolt I have the compression damping dialed all the way soft. I have also dialed the rebound all the way soft and presently am experimenting with it 4 clicks from soft, which I believe is 10 clicks in direction b or 10 clicks from full hard. Now, my understanding of rebound damping is that I am letting it rebound more quickly than if I had it dialed in all the way hard. If I didn't have enough rebound damping, it would rebound too quickly and I would feel a pogo type of effect. I normally have my shock at 12 clicks from soft and felt the pogo effect on the rear when I had my luggage on and fully packed and I had to dial in a couple more clicks of rebound damping. If one had too much rebound damping, the suspension can "pack down" by not letting the suspension fully rebound with each stroke and the end result is a harsher ride over a series of bumps. Even with my rebound dialed all the way soft on the forks, I never felt a pogo effect.

At least, that is my understanding of what I have done to the inner workings of my suspension and I welcome any suggestions.

BTW, I dampen my suspension every time I wash my bike. ;D

 

[Blue_eyes]

Hi Blue Eyes,

This is very interesting and I welcome discussion on this subject, as I hope to learn more about suspension adjustment, etc. I am one that feels that there is too much high speed compression damping in my forks. That is, when I hit a sharp object that causes the forks to move up at high speed, I feel a jolt. In an effort to see if I could soften this jolt I have the compression damping dialed all the way soft. I have also dialed the rebound all the way soft and presently am experimenting with it 4 clicks from soft, which I believe is 10 clicks in direction b or 10 clicks from full hard. Now, my understanding of rebound damping is that I am letting it rebound more quickly than if I had it dialed in all the way hard. If I didn't have enough rebound damping, it would rebound too quickly and I would feel a pogo type of effect. I normally have my shock at 12 clicks from soft and felt the pogo effect on the rear when I had my luggage on and fully packed and I had to dial in a couple more clicks of rebound damping. If one had too much rebound damping, the suspension can "pack down" by not letting the suspension fully rebound with each stroke and the end result is a harsher ride over a series of bumps. Even with my rebound dialed all the way soft on the forks, I never felt a pogo effect.

At least, that is my understanding of what I have done to the inner workings of my suspension and I welcome any suggestions.

BTW, I dampen my suspension every time I wash my bike. ;D

Hi Fred,

I fully agree with your conclusions. I have yet to experience the effect of my settings. Due to the bad weather here I have not had a chance to ride with it.

I think the consensus is that for lightweights like me (73 kilo's) the front spring preload is quite (too) high (I have set it to soft, 8 out ). For me the rebound damping needs to be set harder (I have set it to 2 clicks in direction B) and the compression damping should be set softer (I have set it to 11 clicks in direction B).

I'm very curious how the bike feels now.

If it weren't so damp outside I would give it a damping... ;D

 

[Firefight911]

Compression damping needs to be split, or bifurcated, in to two areas. There is hi speed compression and there is lo speed compression.

Hi speed compression is what comes in to play when your suspension experiences a movement as a result of a sharp edged type road/terrain type. A frost heave that creates a lip in the roadway or a rock that sits out in the open , for example. Hi speed involves a fast movement of your suspension.

Hi speed compression is controlled through the shim stacks located in the internals of your cartridge fork. This is adjusted by taking apart the forks and adjusting the shim stack. The shim stack is what allows fluid to flow through in this situation. Different shims allow different flow rates, etc. A difference in fluid weight can also have an effect here but tends to cover both hi and lo speed characteristics.

Lo speed damping is what comes in to play when your suspension experiences movement as a result of normal undulations and imperfections in road/terrain type. A road way depression or a low area where water would stand, for example. Lo speed involves the slow (relatively speaking) movement of your suspension.

Lo speed damping is what you control by way of the clickers on the lower end of your fork tubes. Oil weight can control this as a thicker oil would slow things up but the major control comes through the clickers.

Too much hi speed compression and you feel jarring and harshness. Too much lo speed compression and you feel harshness and vague feeling. Too little hi speed compression and the tire over reacts and looses contact with the road. Too little lo speed compression and you get vagueness and a wallowing effect.

Unfortunately, damping and dampening have become very interchangeable in the world of suspension talk. I always think someone is just wet when they say they are dampened versus damped. ::025::