Mandatory recall coming: Hard start

[Dogdaze]

^^^^ KCW, I for one totally agree with you and PM's with the intent to bully, intimidate or be rude for no other reason than that, has no place on this forum. Immature behaviour should not be tolerated, if you don't like what someone has taken the time to write then unplug, no need for personal attacks or snide comments, you always have a choice, choose wisely.

 

[evanqueen]

Once you've encountered the hard start, the ECU is no longer part of the problem. Fuel has wet down the cylinder walls, reducing compression, and the plugs are fouled with fuel. I'd hesitate to use the starter fluid in the manner you are suggesting. It is not intended to be sprayed directly into the combustion chamber thru spark plug holes. Combustion is about the correct air/fuel ratio. Spraying starting fluid directly into the combustion chamber runs several risks, including creating the flooded condition again and contaminating your oil even more.

Crank it with the Fuel injection fuse out util it starts to pop, (this means the air part of the air/fuel ratio is getting back to normal), then put the fuse back in and return to 3/4 throttle and cranking, AFTER trying a normal start process first. Don't forget to rest between attempts, cranking only 10-20 seconds at a time and cycle the key off when you stop to shut the headlights off again. Kill switch off, key off, wait 30 seconds or more, key on, kill switch to run, crank the starter. The car battery is a good idea as it will avoid running down the bike battery, just use normal caution when jumping the two batteries together and during the un-hook stage to not ground anything improperly. Thank you EricV

 

[Checkswrecks]

^^^^ KCW, I for one totally agree with you and PM's with the intent to bully, intimidate or be rude for no other reason than that, has no place on this forum. Immature behaviour should not be tolerated, if you don't like what someone has taken the time to write then unplug, no need for personal attacks or snide comments, you always have a choice, choose wisely.

+1

 

[iClint]

I absolutely agree.

What bothers me more than the thing actually being hard to start or not starting is a couple of the reasons that claim to cause it.
1) Don't run the engine for a "short" time and then kill it.
2) Don't turn the ignition on/off without running the engine.
In todays times that is total bullshit.

I've always been pretty anal about letting any engine warm up, from bikes to vehicles to tractors, boats, garden tillers, whatever. But....on a 2015 motorcycle you should be able turn the key on/off, and/or run the engine for less than a minute til the cows come home, with no implications, short of low battery voltage as a no start cause.

carry on ::26::

I regularly perform all of the above alleged causes of the "hard start" scenario and have NEVER experienced the scenario.

My bike has an 2014 EU/AU ECU if anyone running the same ECU and is experiencing the hard start scenarios, one could assume the ECU or software is not the cause.

 

[Shovelhead]

I regularly perform all of the above alleged causes of the "hard start" scenario and have NEVER experienced the scenario.

::008::

Honestly I wasn't really worried about it, but if any of the above ends up being a probable cause per Yamaha Corp. then I still say its bull.
I only started paying more attention to this after my 2015 bike didn't start last week. It happened right after I had turned the key on/off briefly to check voltage on an SAE lead I had added.
So, I held the throttle WFO, hit the starter and she fired IMMEDIATELY, also running the R's up to oh shit status on a stone cold engine, and that bothered me more than the thing not starting.

 

[EricV]

What helps immensely, is knowing to not keep attempting to start the bike in the normal process. You had a hard start, admittedly after doing one of the things you don't think should cause it, but knew to not just keep trying normally, but to go WOT and then try again. Boom, bike started and angst avoided. If it happens, and immediate response is to go WOT for the second attempt, most bikes do fire right up.

It's the ones that have already run down the battery trying in the normal manner that end up being the difficult ones to get started. Even after the battery is charged or the bike jumped, there is just a lot more fuel in the system by then.

 

[patrickg450]

Umm, check back next week.

WILCO

 

[fredz43]

My bike has an 2014 EU/AU ECU if anyone running the same ECU and is experiencing the hard start scenarios, one could assume the ECU or software is not the cause.

One can't really assume that, based on what we know. We know that Yamaha has different programming in the 14 and 15 ECU because they have stated they did so to improve throttle response and that is evident if you ride one, and it has a different part number, so it is different from previous ECU's. Just because they changed (changed, not eliminated) the throttle restrictions that were present in the earlier models, does not necessarily indicate that they changed other programming. KCW has been told that the recall will affect the 12 thru 15 bikes as Yamaha has corrected what they referred to as a bug in the programming of those ECU's that can result in a flooded condition.

And, yes, I agree Shovelhead, that it is BS to have such a bug in a FI machine and have said that all along, as a properly fuel injected vehicle should not do that. This debate has gone one for a long time. We have even seen people referred to as idiots if they have had the hard start problem. Now it looks like Yamaha is finally addressing it, thank you Yamaha. Better late than never.

Also thank you, KCW for sharing what you are allowed to share under the circumstances. I can understand why Yamaha Would have some sort of a NDA with you on this. I'm sure they didn't want pics of a burned up S10 spread all over the internet. We have enough pics of BMW with final drives on fire, so we don't need S10 fire pics to go along with them. ;D

 

[RonH]

Just for info, I had the hard start for the 3rd time today and it was a bad one. Wide open throttle did not suffice in starting and the battery went flat. I was turning the engine over for about 30 seconds, then did the kill switch trick Yamahe eluded to, and that did no good. After about 3 attempts I knew it wasn't going to run, so I charged the battery and still no good. My battery checks out at 21ah in tests which is good. Finally got a jumper box and hooked it up, and went 30 seconds wot, then wait 30 seconds and repeat. It took about 8 times before it fired. Now for the info I want to share relevant to the "fire danger". After a good 4 minutes of starter cranking, the cables were not even warm to the touch, so feel free to crank away without fear of fire from wires overheating. If there was the one fire, it sure wasn't the cables that heated.

 

[RIVA]

^^^^ KCW, I for one totally agree with you and PM's with the intent to bully, intimidate or be rude for no other reason than that, has no place on this forum. Immature behaviour should not be tolerated, if you don't like what someone has taken the time to write then unplug, no need for personal attacks or snide comments, you always have a choice, choose wisely.

::026::

 

[Juan]

^^^^ KCW, I for one totally agree with you and PM's with the intent to bully, intimidate or be rude for no other reason than that, has no place on this forum. Immature behaviour should not be tolerated, if you don't like what someone has taken the time to write then unplug, no need for personal attacks or snide comments, you always have a choice, choose wisely.

::026::

 

[2112]

I was in my local Yamaha dealer yesterday (UK) and he has not heard anything about an S10 recall ?

 

[JRE]

As mentioned several times, nothing will come out until Feb 1 at the earliest.

 

[RIVA]

I was in my local Yamaha dealer yesterday (UK) and he has not heard anything about an S10 recall ?

At the moment, the recall is specific to The US. Can not see why a dealer in The UK would be aware of it.

 

[HeliMark]

All this about the fuel injection is interesting. My '13, in the 26K miles on it has never had a hard start problem. Including starting and running for ten seconds, off, than starting again. Maybe just luck. Even in this day and age, some systems can be "funky" as in what it should or shouldn't do. I have flown some of the most advanced avionics systems, and man can they be quarky. Won't even get into the dance one has to do on some fuel injected airplanes to start them that defies all logic. It was/is well known that at least the camhead BMW RT's (at least mine) in order to start them without running the battery down on a cold day was to crack the throttle a little, but don't do that on a warm day. Would start right up then.

Although it may have taken some time, a big plus to Yamaha on trying to correct the issue (I have no doubt the KCW is correct). See if some other manufacturers even acknowledge or attempt to fix issue's.

Mark

 

[AlsoRan]

All this about the fuel injection is interesting. My '13, in the 26K miles on it has never had a hard start problem. Including starting and running for ten seconds, off, than starting again. Maybe just luck. Even in this day and age, some systems can be "funky" as in what it should or shouldn't do. I have flown some of the most advanced avionics systems, and man can they be quarky. Won't even get into the dance one has to do on some fuel injected airplanes to start them that defies all logic.
Mark

Good points. I've never had the hard start on my '12 either before the flash or after. But I use the same procedure every time. I think flying those fuel injected Continentals keeps the mind sharp for doing the exact same thing every time and not just sometimes or your pay the price.

 

[iClint]

only one more sleep... ::017::

 

[evanqueen]

Eric,
I pulled #4 fuse and hooked up truck battery, cranked it a few times with fuse pulled. It wanted to start and was trying to ignite the fuel from being flooded. I then replaced fuse turned on ignition with kill switch on, turned kill switch off and it started immediately. My issue was they battery was too low to produce a spark or too little a spark if there is such a thing. It was even charged on a trickle/maintenance charger. I may get a new battery. My bike is kept on my cabin porch and gets into teens or 20s at night. Thanks for the advice and happy riding

Evan

 

[Checkswrecks]

My 2012 and 2014 start very differently and personally, I'm wondering if part of this isn't related to the low-voltage tolerance of the ECU. Voltage delivery to an individual component and ground plane paths are one of the differences which can affect what seem to be identical machines. Whatever it is I do hope that Yamaha's answer will help people.


The one thing I will caution to not fixate on is a possible release date. I've seen these things accelerate in time and I've seen them suddenly delayed by staff suddenly needing to work on something else. IF this is going to be a recall, the Government office we seem to be waiting on is very thin-staffed.

 

[trainman]

I think we over here are all keen to see what happens with this in the USA. If only to finally confirm that there is an issue with the bike and what it is and what the cure is. I assume UK bikes might have a different set up due to emission reg differences, how this affects things I know not.

Over my many years biking I have had bikes with the odd starting issue (for no reason) and known plenty of others who have had a one off event. Maybe electronics in general on bikes can have an off day and no doubt a poor battery (or one getting poorer after multiple starts) must make matters worse - as noted above sensor operation, the ECU itself and having a fly by wire throttle system all place demands on the battery and require it to be providing a decent power level to operate to spec.

Lets hope we all have an answer soon!