HARD START

EricV

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Re: Very hard starting today

normlman said:
I purchased my Tenere around three months ago. I have all ready put 5000 miles on it with out a single bit of trouble until this week. My bike will turn over but will not crank. The battery is fine, the bike has not been wet, and I keep it in a heated garage. A local shop is picking it up today to try and find out what is going on. :'(
How long has it been sitting? And how long did it run the last time you fired it up?

Odds are high that the shop will find nothing wrong and eventually get it to start up with just a jump and some WOT cranking.
 

markjenn

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Re: Very hard starting today

Bummer. Please report back what fixed it.

BTW, I'm being picky, but when someone says a motor "cranks", they usually mean that it "turns over" - that the starter motor turns the engine. So most would describe your problem as the motor cranks, but won't fire.

- Mark
 

EricV

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Re: Very hard starting today

Internet diagnosis is tough, but if we understand the terms each other is using, it helps. I'm with Mark on the cranking. And I agree, please do share what is found when you know. It's bound to help someone else too.
 

Tim Selwyn

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Re: Very hard starting today

I have had this problem three times, the bike seems over fuel, the way i get over it is to remove the fuel pump fuse, then turn the engine over on the starter for a while ,then with the motor still turning over touch the fuse on and off untill it starts to fire.
This was a trick taught to me by a AA man , why it does this I don't know, but the fuse trick seems to work
Tim Selwyn
 

GrahamD

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Re: Very hard starting today

Tim Selwyn said:
I have had this problem three times, the bike seems over fuel, the way i get over it is to remove the fuel pump fuse, then turn the engine over on the starter for a while ,then with the motor still turning over touch the fuse on and off untill it starts to fire.
This was a trick taught to me by a AA man , why it does this I don't know, but the fuse trick seems to work
Tim Selwyn
Didi you advise YAMAHA of this?

It's going to be a bit tricky, to diagnose like most intermittent problems as usual, but at least it is on the YAMAHA radar if they know.

So lets see if I have this about right.

It doesn't matter where the bikes are in the world, so it's not an "emissions zone" thing,

Is it temp related? Does it happen more in hot or cold weather?

I am wondering if the ECU is doing "too much choke" or something.

How much a part do the secondary butterflies play in all this.

Has anyone tried some Ether engine starter product.?

Like this.....

 

colorider

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Re: Very hard starting today

normlman said:
I purchased my Tenere around three months ago. I have all ready put 5000 miles on it with out a single bit of trouble until this week. My bike will turn over but will not crank. The battery is fine, the bike has not been wet, and I keep it in a heated garage. A local shop is picking it up today to try and find out what is going on. :'(
I wish we were welcoming you to the forum under better circumstances! But ::004:: nevertheless!!
 

normlman

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Re: Very hard starting today

OK the fuse trick worked when a Tenere will not fire. Remove the #4 (fuel pump) fuse and while trying to crank push in and pull out the fuse several times. Don"t know why this worked but it did. It sucks to have a brand new bike with this flaw. :mad:
 

dcstrom

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Re: Very hard starting today

normlman said:
OK the fuse trick worked when a Tenere will not fire. Remove the #4 (fuel pump) fuse and while trying to crank push in and pull out the fuse several times. Don"t know why this worked but it did. It sucks to have a brand new bike with this flaw. :mad:
Did you do that or the shop?

I've put a report in about these problems, quoting this thread, but as far as I know nobody has actually been able to get a dealer to try to solve the problem. If they did, and needed tech support from Yamaha, maybe we might get some answers?
 

GrahamD

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Re: Very hard starting today

dcstrom said:
If they did, and needed tech support from Yamaha, maybe we might get some answers?
::026::

If YAMAHA are blissfully un aware of this problem , it is going to be a long drawn out PITA.

It's bad enough that it is intermittent, but delaying YAMAHA's involvement is just going to delay things.

Whinge bitch and moan to YAMAHA, but also please give them as much info as you can, so they at least have a chance of replicating this issue.

Temps, throttle movements when starting if any, time sitting etc, warm or hot engine, multiple starts from cold?

I have been on the receiving end of stuff like this numerous times and while I can understand the frustration the only thing that gets a fix is replication of the problem at YAMAHA, which requires factual input on a variety of things.

YAMAHA may even like to provide some advice on what inputs they want.

It may even be good to have a group of "hard starters" around so a dedicated tech can be arranged and get some data acquisition tools onto the task.

Would be good to know if there is a hard starting "cluster" to help it along.
 

markjenn

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Re: Very hard starting today

normlman said:
OK the fuse trick worked when a Tenere will not fire. Remove the #4 (fuel pump) fuse and while trying to crank push in and pull out the fuse several times. Don"t know why this worked but it did. It sucks to have a brand new bike with this flaw. :mad:
Glad you got it running. Did you try full-throttle before doing the pull-fuse trick?

I'd also be interested if anybody who has had the problem thinks they might have inadvertently used a bit of throttle on starting - some of these new systems are getting terribly picky that the throttle has to be absolutely and completely closed on a cold start. Another possibility is that after turning the key, you may have to delay cranking until the FI system has had a chance to complete its self-diagnosis and get itself sorted - too quick a trigger finger on the starter button may cause the system to not be able to completely initialization, read all the sensors, and have the proper mixture for a reliable cold start.

Everything is pointing to a premature flooding condition in these non-starts. Once you have a certain level of fuel in the inlet tract that takes the mixture above the combustible limit, there are only two ways the engine is going to fire - either wait until it evaporates or get the throttle plates wide open to flush the fuel out with a lot of air.

- Mark
 

GrahamD

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Re: Very hard starting today

markjenn said:
I'd also be interested if anybody who has had the problem thinks they might have inadvertently used a bit of throttle on starting - some of these new systems are getting terribly picky that the throttle has to be absolutely and completely closed on a cold start. Another possibility is that after turning the key, you may have to delay cranking until the FI system has had a chance to complete its self-diagnosis and get itself sorted - too quick a trigger finger on the starter button may cause the system to not be able to completely initialization, read all the sensors, and have the proper mixture for a reliable cold start.

- Mark
::026::

I just wonder if the old habit of "twist twist twist" that used to be fairly common on carb bikes is just causing a lot of fuel to be dumped in anticipation of the engine actually needing it, especially when cold.

Then the Fi says oh OK closed throttle , no more fuel, umm yep pump some in there, s/he's gunning it, umm no maybe not, umm umm WTF!!

I never use any throttle at all when starting an FI bike. Don't shoot me.
I just decided with all the smarts that it probably knew what it was doing.

Or maybe the air temp sensor is cold and the motor / inlet tract is warm, and it THINKS it needs gobs of fuel.

YAMAHA should still know about it though.

Engineers often DO or DON"T do things unconsciously that the average dude may do, so may never have picked it up.

Cheers
Graham
 

elizilla

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Re: Very hard starting today

I do not normally use any throttle while starting the bike. I have never had a bike that needed that; even my older carb'd bikes didn't need it - that's what we have choke for. I have observed other people doing it, and mostly I notice that it seems to make bikes start worse, not better, but I hold my peace because no one wants some chick to tell them they're doing it wrong. ;) My starting problem occurred when no one but me had been starting the bike, so no, I do not think it was accidentally given throttle while starting. I did use the throttle in my troubleshooting after the starting trouble began, when I read the post from dcstrom where he said it had helped him. It felt awkward to do; not something I'd have done accidentally.

It seemed to me that the bike came close to catching several times, and each time it was when I let it rest for a little while, then cranked the starter with the throttle closed for a few seconds, and only then rolled WOT. It almost caught, three or four times, that way, before finally it did catch. I let it run until it was fully warmed up before shutting it down, and I've had no trouble since.

I don't think the premature fueling evaporates very quickly if at all. I let it sit for a full week without messing with it, and it didn't clear. If the tank hadn't been full, I'd have lifted it so I could pull the plugs and dry them, but it was full, and therefore heavy, so I was reluctant to do that. I was glad I was able to start it without doing that.

I didn't try ether either.
 

GrahamD

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Re: Very hard starting today

elizilla said:
I don't think the premature fueling evaporates very quickly if at all. I let it sit for a full week without messing with it, and it didn't clear.
Seems like the engine seals pretty well eh!

So that's a 1 in the no twist column for Marks spreadsheet.

How cold was it at the time?

Who else with the issue doesn't do the twist.?
 

The Ferret

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Re: Very hard starting today

JohnB said:
I'm going with Eric's explanation. We should be able to verify this with someone at Yamaha. I'm just not sure who or how to get in touch with them.
To add my experiences , which could be covered by Erics explaination. Twice I have parked my warm bike outside the garage to cool off. Hours later I start the bike and move 20 feet into the garage and switch off. Next morning I have a starting problem. The engine turns over but does not fire.

The solution has been as for my FJR. Turn the engine over with half to full throttle. It fires up pretty quickly.

The ambient temperature about 10 deg Celsius.

As a precaution I put the bike on a trickle charge every other week.

I wonder if the guys who've had the ECU reprogrammed get this issue?
 

elizilla

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Re: Very hard starting today

GrahamD said:
How cold was it at the time?
At which time?

I like the theory that the issue is caused by starting it briefly and shutting it down before enrichment ends, so maybe the temp at that time is significant. The last time it started, I was running the garage heater, so, room temperature (70F/21C), but when I opened the door to start it, a bunch of bitterly cold air rushed in.

The day it first failed to start, I was also running the heater.

Temps in the garage swing wildly at this time of year. Freezing at night, sauna-like when I run the heater. The bike has not been kept temperature stable AT ALL. I don't recall how many times I tried to start the bike, or the temps during those attempts.

The day it finally started was warm enough to work comfortably in the garage with the door open, probably 60F/16C.
 

jajpko

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Re: Very hard starting today

elizilla said:
At which time?

I like the theory that the issue is caused by starting it briefly and shutting it down before enrichment ends, so maybe the temp at that time is significant. The last time it started, I was running the garage heater, so, room temperature (70F/21C), but when I opened the door to start it, a bunch of bitterly cold air rushed in.

The day it first failed to start, I was also running the heater.

Temps in the garage swing wildly at this time of year. Freezing at night, sauna-like when I run the heater. The bike has not been kept temperature stable AT ALL. I don't recall how many times I tried to start the bike, or the temps during those attempts.

The day it finally started was warm enough to work comfortably in the garage with the door open, probably 60F/16C.
Because of the swinging temps, have you noticed any condensation on the bike or other places in the shop?
 

elizilla

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Re: Very hard starting today

japako said:
Because of the swinging temps, have you noticed any condensation on the bike or other places in the shop?
Yes, frequently. I live in a humid place with wildly varying temperatures, and when I fire up the heater it gets worse. It's an ongoing battle. I run fans in the garage when it gets particularly bad.
 

jajpko

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Re: Very hard starting today

elizilla said:
Yes, frequently. I live in a humid place with wildly varying temperatures, and when I fire up the heater it gets worse. It's an ongoing battle. I run fans in the garage when it gets particularly bad.
That's very interesting. I wonder if others that have had the problem, also experienced high levels of condensation.
That could be another factor in the scenario.
 
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