HARD START

[elizilla]

Re: Very hard starting today

Graham, I'm happy to gather data. But for something like this I find it's important to be very clear exactly what to measure, because otherwise I come back to the person suggesting the questions, and find that my answers aren't the ones they want. And when the other people try to do the same test, they don't do it the same, so the results don't compare well. So if you don't mind, let's nail these questions down a bit more specifically, so I AND other people can try them, and see what are the similarities and differences, and that will give us more useful data.

You suggested:

Voltage while cranking,

Measure across the battery terminals while cranking?

Voltage on battery after sitting for a while?

Take the battery tender off, measure voltage? Then wait how long, and measure again? Without doing anything else, right?

Drain rate while standing?

The difference between the two, above, right? Or do you have some other trick to find this?

Was the throttle twisted when starting or left alone?

Which do you prefer? So far I have not twisted it, but I could.

Voltage across live starter lead, when cranking?

This isn't a measurement I have ever taken. I'm assuming you mean you want me to measure the voltage between a particular spot in the wiring, and the negative terminal, while cranking? On the way into, or the way out of, the starter? And where is the best place to get at this spot? Wire color?

Anything else you want data for?

Thanks!

 

[dcstrom]

Re: Very hard starting today

Third time's a charm!

Third time for recharging the battery that is. Previously I'd cranked it till it started to slow, then recharged at that point. The previous 2 runs on a freshly charged battery I'd tried various combinations of throttle open, closed, back and forth, flicked kill switch, change S/T modes, ignition on/off/on/off, disconnected battery... nothing but a few coughs. Second time around I noticed the right header pipe had a little heat in it, the left, none. Seemed like on the odd occasion it was firing, it was only the right cylinder. My next move (tomorrow) would have been to lift the tank and pull the plugs.

As luck would have it, I was going to an event at Bob's BMW tonight, and had been looking forward to parking the Super Tenere cat amongst the GS pigeons. It was starting to look like I'd have to take the Strom. Would have to tell the guys there that I bought the Strom because the S10 wouldn't start? (of course not! )

As I was about to leave the little green light came on on the charger, I thought what the hell, let's give it one more go. Wide open throttle, hit the starter - WTF OMG un-be-fucking-lievable, it started just like there was never a problem. This was with WOT, but I think it would have started normally without it.

No fuel smell but a bit of white smoke from the exhaust, soon followed by a lot of white smoke from around the engine. This was a reminder that I'd coated metal parts with WD40 or Boeshield T-9 (can't remember which) when I'd put the bike away. Neither of those could have caused this?

Whatever, there seems to be a number of these non-starting events, and it's a bit disconcerting I have to say. If I was somewhere without access to a charger I would have been screwed.

I think Yamaha owes us some answers? Anyone else experienced a problem, please add to this thread. I'll be talking to my dealer next week and see if he can get some action. Fredz, Bloke, what do you think?

All's well that ends well, bike behaved perfectly normally the rest of the night, and I think one of the GS riders at Bobs will be buying one >

Trevor

 

[GrahamD]

Re: Very hard starting today

Graham, I'm happy to gather data.

Good onya ::008::

You suggested:

Voltage while cranking,

Measure across the battery terminals while cranking?

Yep, Should start at about 12.8 and drop to about 9v while cranking. (I'll check that against the STrom) If I'm fast enough and I can find my meter ::010::

Voltage on battery after sitting for a while?

Take the battery tender off, measure voltage? Then wait how long, and measure again? Without doing anything else, right?

Yep. Trying to determine whether the battery has a constant drain and how much. Ducati has had this problem. Guess what? Two weeks and no start.

Drain rate while standing?

The difference between the two, above, right? Or do you have some other trick to find this?

Umm that one is a bit trickier. Looking at the battery voltage difference over a week will give you an idea without special stuff.

To find out straight away, either get a Multimeter with a Current (mA) or AMPS setting and connect the leads between the positive battery terminal and the positive battery lead. You have to disconnect the battery and insert DMM between lean and battery.

Or if you don't have a current (mA) setting...
You need a 1 Ohm resistor, 10 Ohm and 100 Ohm resister. A DMM and some reliable connections.

When you know the draw on the battery you can work out how long it will sit until it's half depleted.

I'll scribble something on some paper and take a picture.

THIS is a rest state IGNITION OFF NO STARTER or you will blow the crap out of your DMM.

Was the throttle twisted when starting or left alone?

Which do you prefer? So far I have not twisted it, but I could.

Just be good to know whether there is some strange thing going on in the ECU if the throttle is constantly opened and shut when trying to start.

SO you didn't. I'll add one to the "No twist of the Wrist" that column.

Voltage across live starter lead, when cranking?

This isn't a measurement I have ever taken. I'm assuming you mean you want me to measure the voltage between a particular spot in the wiring, and the negative terminal, while cranking? On the way into, or the way out of, the starter? And where is the best place to get at this spot? Wire color?

This is between the positive battery terminal and the large terminal on your starter, which is usually covered by a rubber boot.

I'll scribble a diagram.

This should read Zero when not cranking and about 3v (Guess) When cranking.

[/quote]

Anything else you want data for.

Personal Phone numbers and email to an English speaking engineer at YAMAHA Japan would be nice. 8)

The main reason to get this is to get it up here so that other people can contrast and compare and a GURU can see it, or reference it.

Then you have a thousand eyes, cross checking things. Can really solve problems if you have the right eyes.

Be back in a while..

Cheers
Graham

 

[elizilla]

Re: Very hard starting today

The main reason to get this is to get it up here so that other people can contrast and compare and a GURU can see it, or reference it.

Then you have a thousand eyes, cross checking things. Can really solve problems if you have the right eyes.

I agree!

However I am not going to collect data tonight. It's after midnight here, it's cold, and the garage heater hasn't been running. I'll heat it up tomorrow, when I can plan on working out there for a while.

Speaking of which, it might also be worth noting ambient temp while dealing with this stuff.

I'm going to refrain from trying Trevor's WOT trick, until after I collect the data. That way if it works, we know more about the condition before doing it. But I'll try the WOT thing too.

 

[GrahamD]

Re: Very hard starting today

We're just throwing ideas out there, Graham. No reason to get worked-up.

I'm not worked up, I am frustrated for you guys and gals from 5000km away.

I'm just trying to get some actual facts to try and help pinpoint what this strange gremlin is?

You know what happens if you send it to the dealer?

It will start perfectly for two weeks until you get it back. ;D

And Trevor.

Great to read. ::008:: ::012::

Now it won't do it again for ages will it.

 

[stevepsd]

Re: Very hard starting today

Yuasa, are a good battery, although I have never used the glass mat versions, I don't think. Maybe a LiPo battery would be a better bet.

This mob are adamant that the batteries are drop in replacements..

Might be worth a word to them. http://www.shoraipower.com/default.aspx

I have seen an engineer from that company on a forum trying to explain to the skeptics over about 30 posts that they would be fine.

I'll see if I can track it down.

The Shorai are not Lithium Ion, but Lithium Iron (LiFe), similar but not close.

Here are the ones for the ST: http://www.shoraipower.com/SearchBattery.aspx?Mode=OEM&searchterm=YTZ12S

I have been running one on my KTM 530EXC for over a year and cannot kill it. In normal use the Lead Acid battery would last around 8 -10 months before completely becoming unusable - and complaining for a month or two before this. The beating the battery takes off-road is immense. Plus I could only get a few attempts at starting before the battery goes flat (that is with the upgraded 7AH battery instead of the stock 5AH unit).

When I replaced it with the Shorai, I could crank it for many minutes (flooded motor from crashing) without it crapping out. It also turns the motor over with much more gusto compared to the stock battery. So far it has held up better than I could hope for and it is still going strong, with no signs of stress.

I got one of the early units, with the somewhat flimsy battery terminals (which how now been upgraded). The batteries are so light, you think they are just filled with air, plus they are physically much smaller than normal.

When the stock battery dies, I'm replacing it with a Shorai ::008:: ::008:: ::008::

 

[GrahamD]

Re: Very hard starting today

The Shorai are not Lithium Ion, but Lithium Iron (LiFe), similar but not close.

Sorry Brain fart. LiPo are things that explode in laptops.

These are Traction Battery Technology.

The Hairy Chested Cool Cousin of LiPo.

I stand corrected. 8)

What I do with these kinds of things is replace it with a battery of the same physical size. If possible.
That gives me even more crankin' Or these days more laptop, lighting, phone, SLR charging use, If I could be bothered with all that crap.

I usually just take a cheap camera. I mean it's not like I ride a BMW or somefin'

Cheers
Graham

 

[stevepsd]

Re: Very hard starting today

The stock YTZ12S battery is a 11 Amp/Hr battery, with 210 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA). It is 150mm x 87mm x 110mm in size and weighs 3.7kg (8.14lbs)

The 'large' Shorai replacement battery (LFX18A1-BS12) is a 18 Amp/Hr equivalent battery, with 270 CCA. It is 148mm x 66mm x 106mm in size and only weighs 0.96kg (2.12 lbs).

 

[stevepsd]

Re: Very hard starting today

Yeah, I've been monitoring the Shorai thing well before I even considered an S10. The guy you responded to earlier mentioned LiPo (lithium polymer) batteries. I would not touch those with a ten foot pole for motorcycle use, because they burst into flames when the charge regulation circuits fail. This issue is supposed to be eliminated in Shorai Batteries because they use the lithium-iron combo. So far this seem to be true, because I've seen no report of Shorais torching themselves. From what I here, you can crank the starter for so long with a Shorai that you have be mindful of giving it a rest, from time to time because you can fry the starting system if you're not careful 8)

I know on my KTM that I can easily crank it at least 10 times longer with the Shorai than with the stock lead-acid unit. Any you are correct that the LiFe batteries (which the Shorai's are) are much more chemically stable than LiPo's.

You can also safely charge the Shorai with a Battery Tender, but even after sitting for a couple of months in the summer (it's to darn hot here-115F- to do much off-roading in July/August) that the battery did not discharge much at all (less than 0.10 volt) during this time.

 

[GrahamD]

Re: Very hard starting today

The guy you responded to earlier mentioned LiPo (lithium polymer) batteries. I would not touch those with a ten foot pole for motorcycle use, because they burst into flames...

I know it was a brain fart. Steve picked me up on it.. I meant to type LiFePH04 but I tried to shorten it a bit and it ended up exploding in my face

Lithium Polymer Battery Explosion's (liposack)

 

[Dirt_Dad]

Re: Very hard starting today

All's well that ends well, bike behaved perfectly normally the rest of the night, and I think one of the GS riders at Bobs will be buying one >

Glad you got it running again. Guess I'll be keeping mine on the tender all the time until Yamaha provides a solution.

Larry at Romney just got in another Tenere this weekend so there is one available for the GS rider from Bob's.

 

[rem]

Re: Very hard starting today

Glad to hear you're up and running. Deeeeeeeelighted. I'm a bit hard starting myself this morning. Minus 36 here. Perfect weather for YukonDood. For me, cowardice is the better part of valor. Gettin' 'er done. R

 

[jajpko]

Re: Very hard starting today

Third time's a charm!

Third time for recharging the battery that is. Previously I'd cranked it till it started to slow, then recharged at that point. The previous 2 runs on a freshly charged battery I'd tried various combinations of throttle open, closed, back and forth, flicked kill switch, change S/T modes, ignition on/off/on/off, disconnected battery... nothing but a few coughs. Second time around I noticed the right header pipe had a little heat in it, the left, none. Seemed like on the odd occasion it was firing, it was only the right cylinder. My next move (tomorrow) would have been to lift the tank and pull the plugs.

As luck would have it, I was going to an event at Bob's BMW tonight, and had been looking forward to parking the Super Tenere cat amongst the GS pigeons. It was starting to look like I'd have to take the Strom. Would have to tell the guys there that I bought the Strom because the S10 wouldn't start? (of course not! )

As I was about to leave the little green light came on on the charger, I thought what the hell, let's give it one more go. Wide open throttle, hit the starter - WTF OMG un-be-fucking-lievable, it started just like there was never a problem. This was with WOT, but I think it would have started normally without it.

No fuel smell but a bit of white smoke from the exhaust, soon followed by a lot of white smoke from around the engine. This was a reminder that I'd coated metal parts with WD40 or Boeshield T-9 (can't remember which) when I'd put the bike away. Neither of those could have caused this?

Whatever, there seems to be a number of these non-starting events, and it's a bit disconcerting I have to say. If I was somewhere without access to a charger I would have been screwed.

I think Yamaha owes us some answers? Anyone else experienced a problem, please add to this thread. I'll be talking to my dealer next week and see if he can get some action. Fredz, Bloke, what do you think?

All's well that ends well, bike behaved perfectly normally the rest of the night, and I think one of the GS riders at Bobs will be buying one >

Trevor

Trevor, I think the spraying of the engine is what really caused your problem. Well, that and a weak battery.
You are not the first to have starting problems after spraying the engine, some have had this with washing the bike.

Glad you got it started and showed up the Beemer guys.. ::025::

 

[colorider]

Re: Very hard starting today

The stock YTZ12S battery is a 11 Amp/Hr battery, with 210 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA). It is 150mm x 87mm x 110mm in size and weighs 3.7kg (8.14lbs)

The 'large' Shorai replacement battery (LFX18A1-BS12) is a 18 Amp/Hr equivalent battery, with 270 CCA. It is 148mm x 66mm x 106mm in size and only weighs 0.96kg (2.12 lbs).

So this is a safe way to go for a plug-n-play replacement? Any issues with using the "normal" battery tender?

 

[Blue_eyes]

Re: Very hard starting today

So this is a safe way to go for a plug-n-play replacement? Any issues with using the "normal" battery tender?

Source: http://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx

Q. Can I use Lead-Acid battery chargers or charger/tenders?
A.Yes. HOWEVER, you may NOT use a charger/tender if it has an automatic "desulfation mode", which cannot be turned off. We have confirmed with Deltran, makers of the "Battery Tender" brand, that their products do NOT have a desulfation mode, and are therefore OK for use with Shorai LFX, for example. But the best possible charger/tender for Shorai LFX is the SHO-BMS01, which will be released on about March 15th 2011, we expect. It uses the 5-pin BMS port in the LFX batteries, in order to monitor, diagnose, and balance the individual cells during charge. And it also has an optimized storage mode that will give the longest possible service life to your LFX.

If you are storing your vehicle and want to check the remaining capacity, or you're a racer with a constant-loss system, you'll want to know how resting voltage (i.e. with no load or load under 200mA) maps to remaining capacity. LFX batteries should be maintained such that 20% capacity remains at minimum, as best practice. Use a good-quality voltmeter to check remaining capacity, and consider recharge whenever the battery capacity falls to about 50% remaining. Of course, if you get the Shorai dedicated BMS01 charger, you can just hit the "Store Mode" button and leave it to do the work for you.




Q. Should I use a battery tender?
A.The short answer is "only if you really need to". Most powersports enthusiasts have gotten used to hooking up a tender to their lead-acid batteries, all the time. Shorai LFX have much slower self-discharge than the best lead acid do (1/6 to 1/7, on average), they do not sulfate as capacity drops, and they are the ultimate "deep cycle" battery, which means that they can still crank your vehicle even if the remaining capacity is quite low. Therefore most riders will not need to use a tender at all. Even a charger or tender uses energy you have to pay for, and there is always the possibility that a charger or tender can fail in some way, so if not really needed the best practice is to not use one.
A fully charged LFX can sit for a year or more and still retain adequate starting capacity, without damaging the battery. As such, any vehicle which has no current flowing when the key is OFF should never need a tender. At most it should be charged every 6 to 12 months, depending on the average storage temperature (cool storage is much better for any battery). Many older vehicles and most dirtbike/atv fall into this category.
Newer vehicles may have a significant draw even when the key is OFF, to maintain clocks and computers, etc. In this case we expect that a few hours of riding per month will be all that is needed to avoid tending. If you know that you will go a number of weeks or months without riding, you can either attach a tender, or disconnect the negative cable from the battery. In any case, during storage you may use the voltage chart above and an accurate voltmeter, and consider recharging when the battery is around the 50% capacity remaining mark, or above.

 

[fredz43]

Re: Very hard starting today

Add my bike to the list suffering this problem.

I had it apart for almost two weeks, installing electrical farkles. I tested the individual items as I got them finished. I only fired the bike up once during the testing, because I was running my garage furnace and I didn't want to open it and let all the heat out. But I had to fire it up to test the Flash2Pass garage door remote, because it runs off the high beam circuit, and the headlights won't come on unless the bike is running, and also, of course, the test entailed opening the door. The Flass2Pass worked, and I shut the bike off with the key. Over the next few days, I turned the key on and off a number of times to test various other things, but I didn't start it again. Finally I got to the Denalis, which are switched off the high beams as well, so I needed to fire the bike up to try them. And it wouldn't start. It only cranked normally for a half dozen tries before the cranking got extremely weak. My voltmeter agreed - battery very sad. I put it on the tender to charge it back up and the tender agreed with the voltmeter.


And the bike smells like it is flooded.



I think you are the victim of flooding caused when we turn the key on several times without starting. Several have had this problem, including me when I installed my heated grips.
The bike probably is actually flooded. On the advice of others I have learned to turn the kill switch on before turning the key on, so that the fuel pump does not run. Never had a problem since. Even though the slow cranking is not confidence inspiring, mine does start as long as I don't flood it by turning the key on with the kill switch in the run position.

 

[EricV]

Re: Very hard starting today

Sorry I'm late to the thread. I could have saved many of you a lot of angst. I know the reason most of the non-starting events are occurring. A lot of you folks are over thinking this. It's simple, and you did it to yourself. This is common to other EFI Yamaha's too.

When you fire up the bike, then shut it down w/o allowing it to run long enough to complete the warm up/cold start cycle, it will be mid cycle and far too rich. Now you let it sit, then go to fire it up again, but it re-starts the cold start cycle, and immediately floods the engine. None of this has anything to do with the battery or starter, it's about the electronics, in regards to how the starting sequence is programed.

The lesson here is simply to let the bike warm up fully before you shut it down. I've had this happen on the FJR twice, which is how I figured it out. Resist the urge to just fire it up to see that it still starts, then shut it down, you will be creating a hard start problem for the next time.

I bought a Shorai battery for my Big Dog and they are a little different. It cranked fine until oil pressure built up to normal, then wouldn't crank the engine after that. I returned it to Shorai, (after several phone calls and emails to confer and trouble shoot), with them accepting that it wasn't a good application for their product. Great technology and very appealing in many ways, but that battery needs to warm up to work better.

Shorai says to turn something on that creates a good load, like headlights, let it sit a couple of minutes that way, then start the bike. Problem for most bikes is that the headlight doesn't come on w/o starting the bike, or attempting to. The Shorai will spin quicker on the second attempt in most cases. If you get one, your normal starting procedure in cold weather may be, turn on the key, turn the kill switch off, then give it a quick crank, just to activate the lights, now let it sit with the lights on for a minute or two, then shut it down, key off, then go thru the normal starting procedure and it will crank great. (whether this will create the previous hard starting problem or not, I don't know. I suspect not, since the engine wasn't running.)

FYI- I manage to have the oem battery die on me after sitting in the garage a couple of weeks. Not sure what the issue was, but the dealer put it on the charger and then tested it, bad cell. Yamaha replaced it with a new oem battery under warranty, (which impressed me, since electrical stuff often isn't covered). In the several weeks while I waited for a new battery, I just snagged one locally that I could find, which was similar dimensions, but shorter and with only 190 CCAs. It's worked just fine and never had a problem starting the bike, even when sitting out side at hotels overnight in the 30's. Sure, I noticed some slower cranking when the bike is cold, but it always starts.

So in summary;

1. Don't wash your bike.

2. Don't fire it up and shut it down again w/o fully warming up.

3. If you get a Shorai battery, expect to learn a slightly different starting procedure.

Optional:

A. Use your kill switch, it will save you more often than hurt you.

B. Use a good battery tender, (I love my Optimate with desulfating cycle).

Hope that helps some folks.

 

[elizilla]

Re: Very hard starting today

OK, here's some data, though not everything. In the order collected...

Voltage across the battery terminals while still on the tender (which is a Deltran Battery Tender Junior, fwiw): 12.92
Voltage while sitting with the tender removed: 12.91
Voltage while cranking: This value jumps around but seems to hover around 11.3
After ten seconds of cranking, with the key shut off: 12.69

I tried cranking it while WOT, and it didn't make any difference. I have not yet tried jumping it from a car or from another bike, and I haven't taken the battery anywhere for load testing. I need to remove the crash bars first; they block access to remove the battery or get at it with jumper cables. I have a second pair of hands coming over the holiday next weekend, and I'll do it then.

It still smells flooded.

 

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

Don't know if it had anything to do with this incident, but I'm not a fan of this WD-40 corrosion control regimen. WD-40 is basically a light solvent and oil in an aerosol carrier that gets it into places it probably shouldn't be. Used routinely, I don't think it does plastic, electrics, and rubber any good at all.

- Mark

 

[GrahamD]

Re: Very hard starting today

Thanks elizilla,

All those voltages so far are better then my Strom,

However the Strom has been resting for a week.

The two measurements I got last night were.

12.3 on battery,
11.5v igintion on (pump, electronics, lights) (The Strom runs the lights until the starter button is hit, They are switched off when the starter engages)

So the Strom at first glance looks weaker, doesn't it?

I'll even try to grab a waveform off my Oscilloscope to show what cranking does in real time ;D

I know, I'm a Geek, with these things :

So ErikV looks to have a good explanation of all this crap. Flooding.

The LiFePHo4 (see got it right this time) batteries may be worth looking at to help clear the problem though.

WADYARECKON?