ABS off switch

[markjenn]

I think what is often missing from these ABS discussions is that when someone says they would like an ABS off switch, they're usually not talking about this:

but instead this (and much steeper, wetter, and greasier than it looks in the photo):

I absolutely can double-dog guarantee you that I can put anyone on a steep greasy dowhill terrain where you absolutely-positively want ABS off. Now granted, many (perhaps most) people won't ever ride in these conditions and that's peachy. But this is not a one-size fits all situation. And that's why a switch is a good thing. It makes the bike more versatile and versatility is what adventure bikes are supposed to be about.

- Mark

 

[3putt]

I would take that dare, no switch is going on this bike. It totally works for me. I'm an old MXer also, btdt.

I know you think the ABS will allow it to just run down the hill, but it will stop believe it or not, and you will be under control all the way.

 

[Firefight911]

I would take that dare, no switch is going on this bike. It totally works for me. I'm an old MXer also, btdt.

I know you think the ABS will allow it to just run down the hill, but it will stop believe it or not, and you will be under control all the way.

BTDT on the type of surface shown in the pic. I'm with David, the bike just stopped. No fanfare, no pucker, it just stopped. Yes, it activated but it never stopped braking and, again, the bike stopped with no fanfare mid slope. If I had done the exact same thing with any of my previous BMW ABS systems turned on, I can guarantee that I would NOT have stopped and would have tossed the bike down the hill and me with it. This is not a BMW bash. It is merely a contrast to the systems the press and most of us know and keep talking about. Hell, Motorcycle Consumer News cited it in their article just this month.

 

[dcstrom]

Still looking for video evidence! I know Old Git Ray and numerous others have made the case that the ABS works on this kind of slippery downhill. I haven't been in that situation myself yet. So perhaps the only way to convince people is with video evidence - preferably back to back with a GS!

Who's up for it?

Trevor

 

[Firefight911]

Still looking for video evidence! I know Old Git Ray and numerous others have made the case that the ABS works on this kind of slippery downhill. I haven't been in that situation myself yet. So perhaps the only way to convince people is with video evidence - preferably back to back with a GS!

Who's up for it?

Trevor

Really?

After 8 BMWs, 7 of which had ABS, and personal experience I'm good. I believe it based on personal experience and that's good enough for me.

Hey David!! Remember Ouray last year and what I said EVERY single time we got under way on all those high level passes while on my F800GS? Yea, me too!!!! TURN OFF ABS, TURN OFF ABS, TURN OFF ABS.

 

[markjenn]

Back to back evidence would be ideal, but there is also the physics of the situation. At slow speeds on many types of surfaces, a locked wheel will continue to develop significant traction, especially as it "plows" material in front of the wheel wheres the ABS-braked wheel will develop almost no traction. This has been shown time and time again where cars with ABS will have MUCH longer stopping distances (2x or 3x longer) on many types of loose surfaces and modern cars have extremely sophisticated ABS systems, much more sophisticated than our Yamaha's. Now I will freely grant that there is a significant loss of control issue with a locked wheels, so you're trading one evil for another, but if you're just talking about traction is really not open to debate that ABS can always develop more traction than non-ABS.

This idea that the S10 ABS is so good that it improves stopping traction on any and every type of surface just doesn't stand the common sense test. But continue to drink the kool-aid if you like.

- Mark

 

[dcstrom]

Really?

After 8 BMWs, 7 of which had ABS, and personal experience I'm good. I believe it based on personal experience and that's good enough for me.

It's not for my sake, but to convince skeptics like Mark. He makes a case that sounds perfectly reasonable, but I know for the dirt roads I ride on the ABS decreases stopping distances markedly over what I'd be able to achieve on my own. In good conditions on dry pavement it may be different - I think I can stop harder without ABS, but I'm willing to give up that last little bit of braking performance for the security offered by the ABS in more difficult circumstances.

So a video comparison would be good - might convince some people, even Mark!

 

[3putt]

Mark, I think you need to ride and put the blackboard down for a while. This is no ordinary ABS we have here, just saying. To be clear on the hill you pictured, I would be applying front brake only to start, using the ABS and UBS, if you need more rear and wish to slide the rear wheel, you can override the ABS in the rear pretty easy. The ABS will not quit working, you will just be able to slide the rear wheel some, but not as much as with NO ABS. It will stay under control and you will gain confidence, trust me, I was skeptical at first also.

I still approach every new deal with caution but I fully expect it to work even in mud but with better tires such as the scout 60.

Yes, Phil I remember, that was engineer pass. I feel that the S10 would handle that pretty easy. I know someone has taken it down Imogene but there are some pretty serious stairsteps that I would not want to try, not because of the ABS but because it is too heavy to pickup by myself and no need to risk serious injury with the bike or myself.

P.S. Dcstrom posted before I could reply, in my case I am not saying the ABS on the S10 will allow you to stop faster on dirt or offroad (which it may) I am saying you can stop pretty fast and be under complete control while doing it! That is the most important thing to me, I can throw around a light dirt bike and lockup the brakes lots of places, but with the big heavy S10 the ABS allows me to do about the same thing only I don't slide all over the place and never lockup the wheels.

 

[markjenn]

....you can override the ABS in the rear pretty easy. The ABS will not quit working, you will just be able to slide the rear wheel some, but not as much as with NO ABS. It will stay under control and you will gain confidence, trust me, I was skeptical at first also.

Maybe I am in the dark. You can override the rear ABS and lock the rear tire?

- Mark

 

[3putt]

Yes, not constantly, but you can slide it momentarily, it will not do that just using the front lever with UBS, at least I have never experienced it. This is on really loose dirt/gravel downhill, pretty slippery stuff.

Phil: I think you also came down corkscrew with the F800GS, how was that? That would be scary on the S10, but I bet it would handle it okay. For those that have never been on corkscrew, steep downhill switch backs dirt/gravel no camber that almost require sliding to square up to make the turn, if you go off, it looked ridable, but you go to the bottom of the hill very fast for sure unless you could make your on switch back real quick!

 

[markjenn]

Mark, I think you need to ride and put the blackboard down for a while.

As an engineer and a scientist, this is something that is difficult to do. To my mind, anecdotal "this works great" testimonials, no matter how well-spoken or numerous, must either have a valid theory behind them or some verifiable and objective testing, hopefully both. So far, the theory that the S10 ABS system is so sophisticated that it can develop the same or better braking traction in any and all conditions as a non-ABS system has neither. Repeated testing on numerous car systems, which are generally a generation ahead of bike systems, has dis-proven this theory repeatedly.

Believe me, I'm not anti-ABS. I have owned ABS motorcycles since they first appeared and have as a litmus test that I won't own an all-weather touring motorcycle without it. I've never felt the need so far to want it off on my S10 either. But I believe I will come across such conditions during the time I will ride this motorcycle. When that happens, I will defeat the system by some means.

- Mark

 

[Firefight911]

Phil: I think you also came down corkscrew with the F800GS, how was that? That would be scary on the S10, but I bet it would handle it okay. For those that have never been on corkscrew, steep downhill switch backs dirt/gravel no camber that almost require sliding to square up to make the turn, if you go off, it looked ridable, but you go to the bottom of the hill very fast for sure unless you could make your on switch back real quick!

When we started off on Corkscrew, you guessed it, I forgot to shut off my ABS. Fortunately, the instrument scan, which became part of any start off, revealed no ABS light. Scramble, Fred Flintstone feet stop, ARRGGHHHHHHH, phew.....disaster averted. After that, it was a challenge on the switch backs and I stepped off on one switchback but it was, otherwise, fun. Not so sure I could do it on my S10 just yet. Not from the bike aspect but the rider ain't that confident!!!! I'm workin' on it though!!

 

[3putt]

Phil, Don't get me wrong, I would run corkscrew with a loaner bike, but wouldn't want to take mine down it. I think it would be fine, but I can also think of lots of other places I could have fun at. LOL

Mark, I am sure the S10 is gonna be weak someplace, like Mud/greasy slick moss on wet rocks which I have not tried. Anyone knows on this type of surface if you lock the front wheel even for an instant you are going down. I have faith that the ABS and UBS will work up to a point, but I would have to test before I just jumped into that situation.

From the service manual (several pages on UBS ABS and Hydraulic workings) Slip Ratio = When the brakes are applied, slipping occurs between the tires and the road surface. This causes a difference between the wheel speed and the chassis speed. Slip Ratio formula = chassis speed - wheel speed / chassis speed X 100 (%)

The ABS ECU calculates the wheel speed of each wheel . . . . .

Sorry I am not going to try and type this, but it runs from page 1-6 to 1-27 with pictures/diagrams and explanations of the ABS UBS and hydraulic controls and sensors. The bike can determine slippage in either wheel in any condition even when turning. We may have landed on one of the best ABS UBS TC systems going at this time.

 

[stevepsd]

I'm with Mark on this one based on my experience with the Devils Punchbowl route in Colorado (Crested Butte to Marble).

See here: http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=2252.0

ABS activated several times on the loose, off-camber, steep-steep-steep downgrade shale/rock/boulder strewn trail. Apply the brakes and it just kept going, right towards the 300ft drop-offs. You can feel the ABS engaging. These are low-speed areas (3-8mph according to my GPS tracks). In these cases sliding the rear wheel would be much better than on/off/on/off .

This terrain was the only time I wish that I could have turned off ABS. The climb out of Crested Butte on soft, somewhat Washington Gulch Rd, to Schofield Pass was just fine. Same with the fast dirt section from Crested Butte to Gothic and the run up to CottonWood Pass was great and the ABS helped in several sections where I was going a bit 'hot' into some corners.

Overall the ABS is fine, but it is NOT perfect (nothing is).

I want and WILL install the option to disable the ABS. It will not be used alot, but I want the option.

-steve

P.S. I am a engineer & analyst but did NOT sleep at a Holiday Inn last night!

 

[3putt]

I understand some may wish for a switch, but just the reading I have done, don't think it is going to be that easy. Lots of other things are involved, like TC and Speedo, plus you get all those flashing lights on the dash. LOL

How I know this, I made a simple mistake of wiring the power to my SpeeDRD to the auxiliary power plug at the front dash. In a hurry I plugged in a bike air compressor to that socket, and of course 3 amp fuse blew. I think nothing of it, don't really need that socket for anything, so I crank and take off, dash lights up like a christmas tree, ABS blinking, TC blinking and my speed is "0" in spite of me doing about 35 mph, hmmmm.

The SpeeDRD is wired into the BLUE wire from ABS to ECU so when the power goes for that, no speed signal which triggers all the errors.

P.S. So, guess if you want a switch, just cut the blue wire and run to a switch, presto no ABS calculations because of no speed sensor readings.

 

[YamaPA]

I understand some may wish for a switch, but just the reading I have done, don't think it is going to be that easy. Lots of other things are involved, like TC and Speedo, plus you get all those flashing lights on the dash. LOL

How I know this, I made a simple mistake of wiring the power to my SpeeDRD to the auxiliary power plug at the front dash. In a hurry I plugged in a bike air compressor to that socket, and of course 3 amp fuse blew. I think nothing of it, don't really need that socket for anything, so I crank and take off, dash lights up like a christmas tree, ABS blinking, TC blinking and my speed is "0" in spite of me doing about 35 mph, hmmmm.

The SpeeDRD is wired into the BLUE wire from ABS to ECU so when the power goes for that, no speed signal which triggers all the errors.

P.S. So, guess if you want a switch, just cut the blue wire and run to a switch, presto no ABS calculations because of no speed sensor readings.

If you cut off the speed sensor wires (blue in color if you are correct as you state above), you will NOT have TC, ABS, speedometer or odometer or T/S mode selection as you note. This is the same as disconnecting the speed sensors themselves from the front or rear wheel. The bike does not like this. This is NOT the way to install an ABS cutoff switch.

The ABS cutoff switch needs to go in the 30 AMP ABS motor wire circuit.

I havent figured out the best way to do it yet, but I know I am not cutting any factory wires. I will likely pull the 30 amp ABS motor wire fuse, insert some sort of fuse tap, utilze a 40 amp relay and handlebar switch, and install another 30 amp inline fuse somewhere in the circuit.

I have a couple of electrical dodads to do this winter on the bike (grips, GPS, lights) and will tackle it all at one time.

 

[stevepsd]

The ABS cutoff switch needs to go in the 30 AMP ABS motor wire circuit.

I havent figured out the best way to do it yet, but I know I am not cutting any factory wires. I will likely pull the 30 amp ABS motor wire fuse, insert some sort of fuse tap, utilze a 40 amp relay and handlebar switch, and install another 30 amp inline fuse somewhere in the circuit.

It would be great if I could find a low profile relay whose main contacts had the same spacing as the 30 Amp ATC fuse of the ABS motor....that way I could eliminate two heavy current carrying wires.....

-steve

 

[Old Git Ray]

.............. especially as it "plows" material in front of the wheel wheres the ABS-braked wheel will develop almost no traction. This has been shown time and time again where cars with ABS will have MUCH longer stopping distances (2x or 3x longer) on many types of loose surfaces and modern cars have extremely sophisticated ABS systems, much more sophisticated than our Yamaha's. Now I will freely grant that there is a significant loss of control issue with a locked wheels, so you're trading one evil for another, .............

Now that I agree with. A good rider will always defeat ABS under test conditions. I think 2x to 3x longer is an exageration though. I say this as a guy named Sp!ke (correct user name) who is a moto journalist cum dirt rider, was invited last year to test the bike in the "Ride for Life" trip, along with 15 or so other journos and experienced off roaders. He tested that bike with and without ABS, again, under controlled piste conditions and every time, he was able to break shorter without the ABS than with it. As I recall it was 10-15% better or thereabouts. The difference is that he knew when he was going to break well in advance on every run. That distance is easily swallowed up in reaction time under normal conditions. On top of that the ABS works immediately and one does not have to wait the fracion of a second for the front wheel to load up to stop it locking.
The average Joe out on a ride will only use the ABS in an emergency and that is where it comes into its own. And where it scores over the BMW, in that you do not have to think about turning it off. Less to worry about and a lot safer when the shit hits the fan. Again, not much good for motocross, but then, it is not a motocross bike.

 

[Brntrt]

I have to chime in here again. I was almost convinced that I didn't need an ABS off switch after retraining my self to grab the front rather than step on the rear. Well after yesterday I'm back in the give me switch crowd. Yesterday while descending a steep, wet, leaf covered, loose stone road I had to let the bike run away or loose control. Grabbing the front brake did slow the bike however the front brake caused loss of steering control. I just let the bike run out using the rear brake. There was no way the rear brake alone could stop the bike or slow it down(the rear brake did slow the acceleration). Fortunately it wasn't a long hill and ran out into a firmer surface. Definately needed to be able to lock up the rear brake for this one. I know the argument that 99% of the time the ABS works perfectly, I know the 1 % of the time it doesn't may have a serious outcome.

 

[Tremor38]

Re: Re: ABS off switch

I have to chime in here again. I was almost convinced that I didn't need an ABS off switch after retraining my self to grab the front rather than step on the rear. Well after yesterday I'm back in the give me switch crowd. Yesterday while descending a steep, wet, leaf covered, loose stone road I had to let the bike run away or loose control. Grabbing the front brake did slow the bike however the front brake caused loss of steering control. I just let the bike run out using the rear brake. There was no way the rear brake alone could stop the bike or slow it down(the rear brake did slow the acceleration). Fortunately it wasn't a long hill and ran out into a firmer surface. Definately needed to be able to lock up the rear brake for this one. I know the argument that 99% of the time the ABS works perfectly, I know the 1 % of the time it doesn't may have a serious outcome.

If the slope is steep and slippery enough, you won't stop regardless ;-);-) but I do see your point because you want to turn the rear into a plow to better slow the bike. That's really the only valid reason, so, sure if you expect to be finding yourself in that circumstance, by all means. To me that's not common enough to have a factory ABS off sw. Aftermarket is a different matter.