Valve Adjustment Nightmare!

jaeger22

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Well I have to be one unlucky SOB. :'( It seems like no one, at lease that I have ever seen post, has had to actually adjust valves at the first check. Many even recommend skipping the first check because the valves are almost never far enough out to worry about. So I fully expected to only have to check the valves and put the thing back together. WRONG!!! All 4 exhaust valves were out of spec!! ??? And one intake was on the edge. Three of the exhausts were just out at .008" but one was at .0065!!.
So I thought I would pass on my "lessons learned"and a few tips and tricks. I failed to take pictures, sorry about that, but there are already plenty of pictures posted here that would look pretty much the same.
First this is a big job and I underestimated the the amount of disassemble involved. The only other bike I have done with shim under buckets was my old V-Strom. I thought that was a bit of a PIA but now know that it was far easier. And part of my problem was self inflected to a degree because of all my mods, many of which got in the way and had to be uninstalled first. Like Givi crash bars, LED lights (attached to the bars), and cruise control.
Once you get everything removed to gain access (including the air cleaner, spark plugs, throttle bodies, and wiring harness), you are faced with actually removing the valve cover. As many have posted it is a VERY tight fit. The major issue is the right side because that side covers the cam sprockets and of all the wiring above it in the top right side of the frame opening. The more of the wiring you can remove the better. Tie the rest up as tight as you can to get it out of the way.This a major pain in itself but worth it when you try to get the cover back on without ripping the valve cover gasket.
OK here is the first tip: The alignment marks on the cam sprocket are on the OUTSIDE. i.e the side next to the electric tray. DUH! You can't see them so they are useless unless you have the motor out of the frame or you completely remove the electric tray. Not even with a mirror, there is not enough room. The simple (and maybe obvious) fix is when you have the cam out, make an alignment mark on the inside. I used a Dremel tool to make a small groove on the inside of the gears aligned with the original marks on the outside. I also put a small amount of yellow paint to make easier to see. Worked like a charm.
Second tip: This is a big one but it will be controversial. However I and others have done it for years and NEVER had a problem. Getting the right shim is a PIA. Either you have to buy a complete set, expensive and 99% of which you will never use, or you have to order the ones you need after you have the cam out. You may get lucky and find the one you need at the dealer. Yeah, that could happen . . . ::)
However, the clearance almost always gets tighter. So you need a shim a few thousandths thinner. So why not just thin down the one you have? That is what I do. I mic the shim first and then thin it down using emery cloth type sandpaper on a flat surface. I used 320 grit. The key is to rotate the shim as you work it to make sure it stays perfectly flat. Another advantage is you can set the clearance exactly where you want it, not in steps of shim sizes but dead on. For example for the exhaust valves that were at .008", I wanted them to be .010" so I just thinned the shims down by .002". Now they are all dead on .010". The one that was .0065, I want to set up a bit looser so I took .004" plus a tad off and now it is a loose .010, close to .011".
I used the above process on the V-Strom many times. It has about 95K miles now and is still going strong. Zero issues.
More later but I have to rest now, my brain hurts!
Going for a ride in the morning! ::001::
John
 

twinrider

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On my TDM900 with the same valve check intervals, an exhaust valve also needed to be shimmed at my first check. The collective wisdom on the FJR forum seems to be do the first check as the valves are settling in, then every other interval afterwards.
 

avc8130

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That doesn't sound like a "nightmare" to me, it sounds like the procedure. One of the main reasons I bought this bike was the 26k valve interval. Just about every other bike is 15k or less. I owned many SV650s and did valves on them all the time. There you had to do 2 completely separate valve trains.

If you think the Tenere is bad, look up the procedure for a Buell 1125r. I owned 2 of those.

ac
 

Karson

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One advantage of a boxer is that it takes 1/4 of the effort to do valve checks, but like avc said, not having to worry about it till 26k is just as good.

I know with my KLR, I remember that we could use BMW shims (pretty sure...). Are there no cross compatible shim sizes for us, or different model shims we could use? I'm with you, doesn't make sense to buy a whole set when you might only need a handful in the bike's anticipated service life. And waiting for the dealers to get them in on order is no fun either.
 

jaeger22

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That doesn't sound like a "nightmare" to me, it sounds like the procedure. One of the main reasons I bought this bike was the 26k valve interval.
Actually I left out most of the "nightmare" parts. Like the big wad of sand that dropped into the manifold when I pulled the throttle bodies off. In spite of intensive cleaning and blowing compressed air all around, there was still a big lump hidden under them. :( That took several hours of cleaning and making special vacuum tools to get it all out. That was just one little side adventure along the way. ::) Let's just say, I thought it would take me one or two days, but I started last Saturday afternoon and got it back together today. So the bike was down a week and ate all my spare time including the 3 day weekend. :-[ But I did have to work long hours at my "day job" Tuesday through Friday. So maybe 4 1/2 days total. That also included TB sync, and installing the Fast Tune ECU cable. And I was going slow and careful. After all this is my baby! ;D
I really do love the 26K interval. That helps for planning long trips like the coast to coast and back I just finished. I am sure I will be much faster next time but I don't look forward to it.
Another tip for any planning to do this yourself, you do not have to pull the clutch cover to check the valves but you DO have to take it off if you remove the cams for adjustment. And of course I had about 300 miles on a fresh oil change. :'(
John
 

twinrider

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I just let my dealer do mine. Last time he charged $260 and even took pics showing the work in progress...
 

snakebitten

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twinrider said:
I just let my dealer do mine. Last time he charged $260 and even took pics showing the work in progress...
Shear Genius!

Some things are just worth it.
 

Rasher

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My dealer reckons it is easier to drop the engine, I think he meant you can drop it a bit rather than take it right out.
 

jaeger22

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I just let my dealer do mine. Last time he charged $260 and even took pics showing the work in progress...
Sounds like you have a great dealer! And I think that is a great price. I like to do all my own work on all my vehicles and also, I don't know what a dealer would do when the encountered all my mutilations, err, improvements. ::) But if I had a dealer or mechanic that I totally trusted, I would gladly pay that much to avoid the pain. The good news I am done for about a year. ;D

The collective wisdom on the FJR forum seems to be do the first check as the valves are settling in, then every other interval afterwards.
Good to hear. Maybe I will be lucky on the next one! ::012::
 

offcamber

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I have read on other forums its not a good idea to grind/sand shims down to get it in spec. The argument was that the hardened steel is only on the surface and if you grind it you will possibly grind through to the softer metal. Anyway YMMV

The last time I did my KLR I just went to the local shop and traded my old shims for the right size...used for used....You can also just buy the sizes you need rathern than a whole kit...

I usually leave valve checks for the off season.
 

jaeger22

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I have read on other forums its not a good idea to grind/sand shims down to get it in spec. The argument was that the hardened steel is only on the surface and if you grind it you will possibly grind through to the softer metal. Anyway YMMV
Yes I read the same and got that same reaction when I posted about it on the V-Strom forum. That is why I said it was controversial. No offense to you but personally I think that is BS. An uninformed guess on their part. First, for many parts it make sense to surface harden for several reasons I won't go into here. But in the case of shims it makes no sense. It is far cheaper and easier to through harden a small uniform part like that than to case harden (Surface harden). Second, they maybe hardened because is would be cheap and easy to do but it would not be required.. They are just spacers and mild steel would probably work fine. And third, I have personally examined a number of then I machined down after they had run thousands of miles and there was NO evidence of any issues.
As always YMMV.
John
 

offcamber

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The way I look at it...they are cheap enough so why bother....its inside the engine so you may not know have a problem until damage is done....the benefit does not out way the risk IMO...
Many have done it successfully.....and I have also heard of shims cracking after they were ground causing extensive damage.

to each his own...its your bike.
 

avc8130

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offcamber said:
The way I look at it...they are cheap enough so why bother....its inside the engine so you may not know have a problem until damage is done....the benefit does not out way the risk IMO...
Many have done it successfully.....and I have also heard of shims cracking after they were ground causing extensive damage.

to each his own...its your bike.
Generally the "why bother" is because sanding a few thou off in your own garage is much easier than getting in a vehicle, heading to the dealer, the dealer not having the size, starting the wild goose chase, etc etc etc. This process can add quite a bit of down time.

ac
 

twinrider

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jaeger22 said:
Sounds like you have a great dealer! And I think that is a great price. I like to do all my own work on all my vehicles and also, I don't know what a dealer would do when the encountered all my mutilations, err, improvements. ::) But if I had a dealer or mechanic that I totally trusted, I would gladly pay that much to avoid the pain. The good news I am done for about a year. ;D
Good to hear. Maybe I will be lucky on the next one! ::012::
I'm in Japan and the official dealership mechanics tend to be well trained. I also make sure the most senior guy does the work. The work I spoke of was on my TDM900 and I think the price for the S10 should be in the same ballpark as they are similar enough motor-wise. Will find out in another 18,000 km....

I do admire those who can DIY at that level, I'm good for oil changes but that's about it...
 

jaeger22

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Generally the "why bother" is because sanding a few thou off in your own garage is much easier than getting in a vehicle, heading to the dealer, the dealer not having the size, starting the wild goose chase, etc etc etc. This process can add quite a bit of down time.
Exactly AC!
However I would be the first to admit that if you have ready access to new parts that path is always preferred. I just don't want to have the bike down any additional days or weeks while I chase parts.
Well the nightmare continues! :'( Took the wife for a ride this morning to get breakfast, and just as we turned into the restaurant I felt something clunk. It felt like a small rock hit the motor near the shifter. I actually looked down at the shifter. When I let the clutch out I realized the motor was not running! ??? And after coasting in to the parking lot, it would not start. Not even fire. So the odds are about 99.9% that I screwed something up during the valve adjustment. Strange that it ran fine for 50 miles or so.I had to take a taxi home and go get the bike with the truck. First time Ever. :'(
If this turns out to be related to the shims I will have to eat my words, :-[ I would be shocked if it was but if so I will post a humbled retraction.
I am not even sure where to start on this. If it were not for the clunk sound I would think electric or fuel. But the clunk has me thinking valve train. My worst nightmare!
I have to go lay down now. . . . :'(
 

snakebitten

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I hate that feeling you have in your gut right now. I hope your biggest fears are unfounded.

My antenna went up on your very first post. I just can't get my head around you having 4 valves out of spec at 26,000 miles. Something just feels wrong.

Hope this ends up being something simple.

Oh, and regarding the "sanding shim" debate. It doesn't matter which side of the argument you fall on.......THAT isn't the problem. No way.

Good luck
 

Karson

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Anytime I decide to tackle a project where I'm cracking side/valve covers off, I always try to be very diligent. And I'm sure you were too. ???

Very unlikely that slimming the shims caused that. Hope for the best when you drain your oil and pull that valve cover off to see if anything got away from you.

Edit: Please post pictures if you come across anything and can stomach it. Everyone can learn from it, hopefully. I'll defend you to the end as a fellow DIY'er if it comes to be something not-so-good.
 

rem

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RED CAT said:
Great info. Thanks. Mine is coming up but will wait till winter. That way I can take a month if I have to.

::025:: ::025:: ::012:: ::014:: KILLING ME >>>>>>>> With winter up here, I could take seven .... ::016:: ::010:: ::025:: ::025:: :D
 

carrot

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did valve adj. on my 2007 r6 at 25000 miles several years back and found all my in. valve in spec but all ex. valves where to tight spent all next morning hunting for shims tore down on friday got it back running sunday night was not fun wasn't for sure if i was going to check s10 valves but now after hearing this going to have a peak when time comes
 
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