The BIG Dynojet PowerCommander V and AutoTune Q&A topic

[spasm]

thats some relly good research yama, thanks for posting that easy to understand post ::008::

 

[Blue_eyes]

I have a question about the PC software. The AFR that is displayed on the screen is what the AT is seeing if installed or the Optimizer? I ask because the red light blinks and goes steady on the AT when starting the bike and remains on once warm as it should. But, on the PC software screen in the lower right I only get a green light for the PCV. The light for the AT Running section is not lit. I did check the config and AT has the check box enabled so I think it is working, maybe?

--Rob

That is OK.
The green light for the AT only turns green when the AT is actually tuning values. When running idle you will most likely not see the green light lit, as it will not tune at idle. Only when the AT is tuning the AFR the green light comes on.

If you see AFR values other than 9.99 and/or 0.00 it is proof that AT is installed OK.

 

[Blue_eyes]

YamaPA, thanks very much for writing this all up. ::008:: ::008:: ::008::

Although I have my thoughts & reservations regarding point 2.
If that is true than changing the O2 closed loop value as described in 3 does not make sense /work as the Yamaha ECU according to 2 will not be able to adjust to 13,6, how will it be able to adjust to values even lower than 13,6 when the Optimizer is set using option 3 to values lower than 13,6 for example 13,0....
I find it hard to understand why the Yamaha ECU would have difficulty adding fuel when in the closed loop area, while it does not have that issue out of the closed loop area...

I think we can easily check the actual AFR in the closed loop by reading that value in the Commandcenter software of Dynojet. That shows the actual AFR. So rev it into the closed loop area and watch the Actual AFR. If that is 13,6 then the ECU IS able to provide enough fuel in closed loop to reach an AFR of 13,6.

 

[Omaha Tenere]

That is OK.
The green light for the AT only turns green when the AT is actually tuning values. When running idle you will most likely not see the green light lit, as it will not tune at idle. Only when the AT is tuning the AFR the green light comes on.

If you see AFR values other than 9.99 and/or 0.00 it is proof that AT is installed OK.

Thank you very much! The last statement is the key - those AFR values (other than 9.99 or 0.00) is proof it is working!

--Rob

 

[YamaPA]

Maybert, thanks very much for writing this all up.

Although I have my thoughts & reservations regarding point 2.
If that is true than changing the O2 closed loop value as described in 3 does not make sense /work as the Yamaha ECU according to 2 will not be able to adjust to 13,6, how will it be able to adjust to values even lower than 13,6 when the Optimizer is set using option 3 to values lower than 13,6 for example 13,0....I find it hard to understand why the Yamaha ECU would have difficulty adding fuel when in the closed loop area, while it does not have that issue out of the closed loop area...I think we can easily check the actual AFR in the closed loop by reading that value in the Commandcenter software of Dynojet. That shows the actual AFR. So rev it into the closed loop area and watch the Actual AFR. If that is 13,6 then the ECU IS able to provide enough fuel in closed loop to reach an AFR of 13,6.

Responding via colors coded above.

Yellow...This is the reason you are adding values to the fuel table in the closed loop area. For example, if the stock ECU cannot accomdate the DynoJet optomizers at 13.6 to 1, we add some positive values (generally 5-10) in the closed loop area. If we dont add the postivie values, we will never get to 13.6 to 1, according to DynoJet. Maybe we get to 13.9, 13.8 or some other number which we dont know. Now, if we go into the DynoJet optomizer adjustment panel and do indeed richen the optomizer up to say 13.2 to 1, you better believe you are going to have to add even more positive values to the closed loop area to get to the even richer mixture of 13.2 to 1. If you dont add the positive values, you will likely fall short at 13.6 to 1, and even shorter at 13.2 to 1. That's my understanding.


Blue...while I somewhat agree with your statement, there is someothing else going on between the ECU. injectors and PCV that I cant explain in words or dont know how to. I dont understand the inner workings of all this stuff so I really cant explain it with confidence or maybe even accuracy. Here is my lame ass attempt with a lot of guesstimation. The DynoJet optomizers "fool" the ECU into "seeing" a different voltage from the O2 sensors during closed loop riding. This new electrical voltage is read by the ECU as a "lean" condition, thus the ECU tells the injectors to squirt some more fuel into the motor to combate the lean condition, thus we get more fuel into the motor. I am confident the preceeding explaination is accurate. Now, this is where I get lost....all I can imagine is there is some coding in the ECU which doesnt allow "that much correction" or that the ECU cant talk to the injectors outside a certain range. Why? I dont know? How come? I dont know. All I can do is pass on what DynoJet told me.

LimeGreen...You got a point here. Rev the bike to somewhere within the closed loop rpm range and HOLD a constant less than 40% throttle at that rpm for 2 seconds and see what AFR you get. The only problem with this is I dont know if we or DynoJet knows if ALL those throttle positions from 2 - 40% and all those rpms within the close loop actually fall short of the 13.6 to 1 AFR.

One interesting thing I learned last night talking with Japako, the European closed loop area is DIFFERENT than the USA closed loop area.

 

[Blue_eyes]

Well, the O2 Optimizer menu option is definately there! ::008:: ::012:: ::012::

I adjusted the values to +6 in the Optimizer menu and manually zero-ed out the 7 values that I had in the closed loop area in the Fuel Map.

edit: I re-read what you stated under 2, and now understand what you mean. I added 6 using the O2 optimizer menu option and should have put a high value as well in the closed loop area of the Fuel Map, instead of zero-ing them out....

OK, will do so tomorrow.

That explains why I saw the AFR values in the closed loop area way too high after having added 6 using the O2 optimizer menu option and zero-ing the values in the closed loop area of the Fuel Map.... ::010::

Before (when I had 7 in the closed loop area of the Fuel Map and before having adjustments made using the O2 optimizer menu option , the AFR value in the closed loop area was hoovering around 13.8... although i found it very difficult to keep a steady throttle / rpm, causing the AFR value going in all directions....

Anyway. I will experiment some more tomorrow, as it is evening here now.

The good news is that we now have access to the O2 Optimizer menu, and have more to play around with.

Just a note: When connecting the mini-usb connector to the Optimizer, you need to push it in until you feel a click. Initially I didn't do that and the menu did not shown up.... :-[
I was about to give up and disconnected the connector when I noticed that the mini-usb plug was not fully in, so I tried again and it worked. ::008::

 

[YamaPA]

Did you ever doubt me that the optomizer menu wasnt there? ::013::

Glad you got it working. And yes, push the minu-USB fairly hard to get it to seat. I had the same issue and should have warned people as you did...thanks.

 

[Blue_eyes]

Did you ever doubt me that the optomizer menu wasnt there? ::013::

Glad you got it working. And yes, push the minu-USB fairly hard to get it to seat. I had the same issue and should have warned people as you did...thanks.

Well.... yes... as it didn't show up whatever I tried.... switched the two cables to the different USB ports on the laptop, re-started the software several times, without engine running, with engine running.... what was I to believe... And when I gave up.... I noticed the mini plug was not seated fully.... Gave it another try, and presto!

Sorry! ::003:: ::003:: ::008::

 

[Blue_eyes]

Re: Re: The BIG Dynojet PowerCommander V and AutoTune Q&A topic

Great stuff! This post ought to be included as a sticky.

::026::

I inserted the entire post in the Opening Post of this topic! ::008::

 

[~TABASCO~]

Well, the O2 Optimizer menu option is definately there! ::008:: ::012:: ::012::

I adjusted the values to +6 in the Optimizer menu and manually zero-ed out the 7 values that I had in the closed loop area in the Fuel Map.

edit: I re-read what you stated under 2, and now understand what you mean. I added 6 using the O2 optimizer menu option and should have put a high value as well in the closed loop area of the Fuel Map, instead of zero-ing them out....

OK, will do so tomorrow.

That explains why I saw the AFR values in the closed loop area way too high after having added 6 using the O2 optimizer menu option and zero-ing the values in the closed loop area of the Fuel Map.... ::010::

Before (when I had 7 in the closed loop area of the Fuel Map and before having adjustments made using the O2 optimizer menu option , the AFR value in the closed loop area was hoovering around 13.8... although i found it very difficult to keep a steady throttle / rpm, causing the AFR value going in all directions....

Anyway. I will experiment some more tomorrow, as it is evening here now.

The good news is that we now have access to the O2 Optimizer menu, and have more to play around with.

Just a note: When connecting the mini-usb connector to the Optimizer, you need to push it in until you feel a click. Initially I didn't do that and the menu did not shown up.... :-[
I was about to give up and disconnected the connector when I noticed that the mini-usb plug was not fully in, so I tried again and it worked. ::008::

Blue,
Let us know what your thoughts are and some number changes after you add that +6.. I know your weather is not good, when you have the opportunity to ride your bike next will you take a screen shot of your AFR's - Etc...... Thanks bud ::017::

 

[YamaPA]

Some test results regarding closed loop AFRs and the number values you insert in the closed loop portion of the fuel table.

First, understand that without a load control dyno, holding a set engine rpm at a set throttle % position is not easy. There is a good amount of "wiggle". The below results were obtained trying to hold 4% throttle which equated to about 3200-3400 rpms when the bike was in neutral. I realize this is NOT the best way to test this, but it did give me some results.

Using the DynoJet optomizers set at their default value of 13.6 to 1 (as delivered with your Power Commander kit), here is what happens holding the above rpm and above throttle position......

1. When zeros are inserted in the closed loop portion of the fuel table, I was reading AFRs at about 16-15 to 1.

2. When 7s are inserted in the closed loop portion of the fuel table, I was reading AFRs at about 13.8 - 13.7 to 1.

3. When 8s are inserted in the closed loop portion of the fuel table, I was reading AFRs at about 13.7 - 13.6 to 1.

4. When 20s are inserted in the closed loop portion of the fuel table, I was reading AFRs at about 13.6 to 1.

Again, it isnt easy getting good stable numbers. The AFRs change so fast your basically reading blinks.

Now remember, this was a half ass test. I only tested 4% throttle and about 3200 tto 3400 rpms. You need a load control dyno to get truly meaningful results, but the above appears to confirm the following:

1. You need at least 8 in the closed loop portion of the fuel table to run with the DynoJet optomizers configured for 13.6 to 1. Let me add, I spoke again to DynoJet just now and the individual I got this time told me his "professional tuner notes" (which go out to the tuning centers) recommends values somewhere between 8 and 12. Amazing how my simple test confirms the 8 number. If you are well below the 8 number...say using numbers 2 to 6....you are unlikely ever achieve the 13.6 to 1 AFR and will be leaner. If you are excessively above these numbers, the ECM will eventually take out the excess fuel to achieve the 13.6 to 1 AFR...more below.

2. Numbers way above 8 (20 in my test case) does NOT drop the AFR below 13.6 to 1 with the optomizers in the default condition. Having big fat numbers allows the ECM to get to 13.6 to 1 "quicker" than the "just barely acceptable" 8 number. But, if you run big fat numbers like 20 or more, you will have a big excess of fuel for a BRIEF moment of time, which the ECM will remove because you will NOT overide the 13.6 to 1 AFR unless you changed it the optomizer screen. You will however be wasting fuel.


3. If you want AFRs in the closed loop richer than 13.6 to 1, you will have to access the optomizer screen, raise the value (a positive value being selected), and then add bigger numbers (larger than 8 - 12) in the closed loop portion of the fuel table. DynoJet said that if you drop the AFR 0.2, you will have to add 2 more points in the fuel table. So a 13.4 AFR will use 10-12 numbers in the closed loop portion of the fuel table, a 13.2 will use 12-14 numbers , etc. If you go leaner, for fuel mileage purposes, a 13.8 AFR will use 6-10 numbers, a 14.0 AFR will use 4-8 numbers, etc. These numbers kind of agree that with 0s in the closed loop fuel table you will be at the 15 or 16 to 1 AFR which I reported seeing. Interesting!

For clarification, and this may sound remedial, but let's confirm some terms and defintiions and directions.

- AFRs. 13.6 is the standard DynoJet optomizer AFR that comes with your Power Commander. 13.4, 13.2 are RICHER AFR numbers and use more fuel. 13.8, 14.0 are LEANER AFR numbers and use less fuel.

- On the DynoJet optomizer configuration screen....if you +1 the AFR, the AFR ratio actually lowers to 13.5 which provides a RICHER fuel mixture. A +3 on the optomizer screen gets you a 13.3 AFR. Negative numbers on the optomizer screen LEAN the mixture out and use less fuel.

- On the Power Commander FUEL TABLE (NOT the AFR table), a positive number RICHENS the mixture by that number percentage. A +3 means 3% more fuel. A negative number such as -4 means remove 4% fuel.

I'm done on this subject. For now.

 

[spasm]

i live in the uk, im running 0's in my closed loop. so am i to believe that i would be better running 8's or maybe up to 12's in the closed loop to bring it inline with the 13.2's im running on the rest of the map , im still getting to grips with this stuff cheers ::008::

 

[Blue_eyes]

i live in the uk, im running 0's in my closed loop. so am i to believe that i would be better running 8's or maybe up to 12's in the closed loop to bring it inline with the 13.2's im running on the rest of the map , im still getting to grips with this stuff cheers ::008::

Did you have time to pickup the package from the postman? Is it the ECU? ::015::

 

[jozmoto]

My experience in the Car world is closed-loop is not entered (effective) until a steady state throttle and rpm (along with normal operating engine temp) is achieved. It could take several seconds for the ECU to determine that the inputs are stable enough to enter closed-loop. Closed-loop meaning the fueling software will start taking inputs from the O2 sensors to calculate the injector pulse time. If the ECU is running open-loop calculations, it is doing so with the last known learned closed-loop correction factors stored in the ECU or with stored calibrated data determined by engineering during the S10 development and adjusting those values with air pressure and temperature sensor readings. The calibration data was created to achieve a specific AFR (usually 14.7:1 for cars).

When you are rolling on the throttle and moving through the "closed-loop" area of the fuel map table, you are not closed-loop but open-loop. Still the value% in the table is being applied to whatever injector pulse width the ECU has calculated.

So now I get to my point. The O2s are not a factor in open-loop but only when inputs are stable (read cruise conditions) and close-loop. Why would you want to drive your closed-loop excessively rich (<13.6) when you are just cruising? Just using excess fuel w/o excess fun (fun=accelerating). I can try to answer my own question. You might do this if in fact the ECU in open-loop is using learned values from closed-loop when in that area of the fuel table. Thus you get the richer fueling when accelerating and having fun. I presume this is the case or at least hope that is what is going on.

Another point to keep in mind. Injectors are rated for a maximum duty-cycle which only can provide a finite amount of fuel. There is a point where it cannot give any more fuel.

 

[Blue_eyes]

I just want to have maximum power whatever the throttle position % and rpm I'm driving in.

Too much is not enough! ::26:: ::26:: ::26:: ::025:: ::025:: ::025::

 

[YamaPA]

i live in the uk, im running 0's in my closed loop. so am i to believe that i would be better running 8's or maybe up to 12's in the closed loop to bring it inline with the 13.2's im running on the rest of the map , im still getting to grips with this stuff cheers ::008::

If you have Power COmmander installed and you DID NOT change the optomizer values (you have to knowingly go into the software to change the values, so you will know if you did this or not) you have closed loop target AFR of 13.6 to 1. That is the standard/default setting for the Power Commander optomizers.

To achieve the 13.6 to 1 AFR in closed loop area, you WILL HAVE TO insert some numbers between 8-12 in the FUEL TABLE. Without the numbers 8-12 in the FUEL TABLE the bike is NOT capable of getting the closed loop AFR down to 13.6 to 1. The zero value you are currently running will NOT get you to the 13.6 to 1 AFR value for closed loop.

 

[YamaPA]

I just want to have maximum power whatever the throttle position % and rpm I'm driving in.

Too much is not enough! ::26:: ::26:: ::26:: ::025:: ::025:: ::025::

As stated in my other posts, and as stated by JozMoto above, richening the closed loop AFR to some number richer than 13.6 to 1 is not going to get the bike going any faster. You want to go faster, twist the throttle. Closed loop is only between 2-40% throttle (forget the rpm speed for now) and when you want to go faster, I am 100% sure you wind up twisting the throttle past 40% and the moment you do that you are in open loop and running off those AFRs/map values. The only possible benefit of a AFR richer than a 13.6 to 1 in closed loop, as stated by others above, you are "closer" to your open loop AFR values which are probably 13.2 to 12.8 or so.

The only people who I can see truly benefiting from playing with the optomizer values are those wanting to LEAN OUT out the AFR to get improved gas mileage.

My closed loop AFR is staying at 13.6 to 1. The bike is smooth, doesnt surge and behaves just fine with such a setting.

 

[Blue_eyes]

So, if I understand it correctly, when cruizing in closed loop steady state throttle and rpm, and then going through the 2-40% throttle range, so during that transitionperiod (how short that may be) I will NOT have the benefit of maximum power till 40% throttle? Also roll-on starts from 2-40% will NOT benefit from maximum power in that range?

Bummer........ :-\

I've already set my O2 optimizer to +6 in order to achieve 13.6 + 6 fuel units = 13.0 and will set the value in the closed loop area of the fuel map to 14 (8+6) to see if it brings any additional power, or only additional fuel consumption.

I'm just curious to find out how the bike responds to this. Undoing is easy enough, and I am too curious to NOT try this out.

Now all I need is some dry weather above freezing temperatures.... ::014::

 

[spasm]

the weather has been very sunny and nice here in poole, dorset, uk. but ive got no ECU lol )

 

[jozmoto]

So, if I understand it correctly, when cruising in closed loop steady state throttle and rpm, and then going through the 2-40% throttle range, so during that transition period (how short that may be) I will NOT have the benefit of maximum power till 40% throttle? Also roll-on starts from 2-40% will NOT benefit from maximum power in that range?

I might not have stated very well but, if the ECU is learning and storing it's closed-loop values when it is in fact running closed-loop, it should base open-loop fueling (in the 2-40%/XXXrpm range) on the stored values. What this means is if you richen the optimizer values, it will carry over to the learned closed-loop values and you would get the benefit. I just don't think the extra richness up to 40% throttle will make your bike seem any quicker especially when you sacrifice fuel economy in cruise for it. Since you have your Optimizer modified, give the ECU some time to settle (learn) and see what you feel when doing roll-on accels.

I spend a lot of time in cruise when out in the country on a trip (fuel economy more important) but almost no time in closed-loop in town as a hooligan using as much gas as possible with throttle at 0% or above 50%.