The BIG Dynojet PowerCommander V and AutoTune Q&A topic

[Maybert]

Hey Maybert, no slur on you or your bike for sure! I was making a point that I would expect much better than "generic stock numbers" for a bike with your modifications and that subjective perspective is just and only that.

In Florida, anytime a motorcycle wheel leaves the ground, for any reason on public roads, it is subject to massive fines and license forfeture...


Tremor: "although the figure is a bit surprising. " ::026::

I hope to get back for a rematch on that dyno ;D I have a feeling once those new tires are squared off I might pull some better numbers

If you jump your bike over the road, does that count?

 

[X5]

I hope to get back for a rematch on that dyno ;D I have a feeling once those new tires are squared off I might pull some better numbers

If you jump your bike over the road, does that count?

I will answer your question with a story a buddy here in Florida told me. He was on his way to Daytona beach for spring break in his Camaro. As he got off I 95 and at the end of the ramp was a stop sign but he only slowed down because it was 2am and zero traffic. He immediately got pulled over by the Florida state police and was told to get out of his car. He got out and was asked if he saw the stop sign at the end of the off ramp on I 95. My buddy told the state trooper that he slowed down and that there was no traffic in site. The state trooper proceeded to begin beating his legs with a billy club and asked my buddy if he wanted him "to slow down or to stop" (the beating).....

 

[Maybert]

I will answer your question with a story a buddy here in Florida told me. He was on his way to Daytona beach for spring break in his Camaro. As he got off I 95 and at the end of the ramp was a stop sign but he only slowed down because it was 2am and zero traffic. He immediately got pulled over by the Florida state police and was told to get out of his car. He got out and was asked if he saw the stop sign at the end of the off ramp on I 95. My buddy told the state trooper that he slowed down and that there was no traffic in site. The state trooper proceeded to begin beating his legs with a billy club and asked my buddy if he wanted him "to slow down or to stop" (the beating).....

::025::

 

[jajpko]

Hiya Jim! Altitude is 200 feet, and yes I am currently running 0 in the closed loop fuel table.

As an experiment, I started a fresh map (all values at zero) when I changed the optimizer setting, and am seeing quite a bit of fuel added in the OL 5250-5500 rpm range at 10-40 % throttle. I don't have the map in front of me, but I think it was between +5 and +15 fuel. So far the other cells have had much smaller trim values.

Thanks for that.. It seems that if you add fuel in the closed loop via the optimizer the auto tune wants to add fuel in the OL, but if you add or put zero in the closed loop, the Auto Tune wants to decrease fueling. And yet according to what we have read, it should be adding fuel.
Very interesting.

 

[jajpko]

So, what is not working as it was designed? Am I missing something here?

All of the info has been posted in this thread. Also if you look at Maybert post of his test results, that would kinda eliminate your theory about the throttle body butter fly's being at a reduced opening and calling for less fuel.

It is very hard to compare what you are seeing with what we are seeing. But as far as what is wrong, I don't think the Auto Tune and PCV, Optimizer, were tuned properly by DynoJet before adapting to the USA Tenere.

I'm not saying you can't make it work, but it is not working as it should have out of the box.

 

[Blue_eyes]

So what you see happening is different from what you expect to happen..... and thus something is faulty...?

Values in one bike's map do not correcpond with values in the map of another bike... and thus something is faulty...?

YamaPa posted: "One interesting thing I learned last night talking with Japako, the European closed loop area is DIFFERENT than the USA closed loop area."

How do you know this?
In what way does the USA closed loop area differ from the European closed loop area?
Why is this and what is the effect of that difference, and how do you think that relates to what you see?

Too may loose ends for me to come to any conclusion.

All I know for what I am concerned is that AT works, PC V works, O2 Optimizer works, and my bike runs better than ever before.

 

[spasm]

All I know for what I am concerned is that AT works, PC V works, O2 Optimizer works, and my bike runs better than ever before.
DITTO ::008::

 

[YamaPA]

YamaPa posted: "One interesting thing I learned last night talking with Japako, the European closed loop area is DIFFERENT than the USA closed loop area."

How do you know this?
In what way does the USA closed loop area differ from the European closed loop area?
Why is this and what is the effect of that difference, and how do you think that relates to what you see?

The instruction sheet that came with the PCV for the USA models does NOT have a rectangular/square shaped closed loop area. Specifically, at 1750 rpm 20% and 40% throttle cells in the USA version are part of the OPEN LOOP. I was talking to someone a ways back, I dont recall who, who was reading from something, that said the cells I idenified above were part of the closed loop....we debated this for a moment, I got my instruction sheet out and verified my beliefs. 1750 rpms and 20% and 40% throttle cells in the USA version are part of the OPEN LOOP. Go check your instruction sheet for the Euro version and see what you find. If there is an error, I apologize as again I was fed bad information. But it is my understanding that your closed loop areas looks like a rectangle/square and not irregular in shape like the USA version,.

 

[Blue_eyes]

The instruction sheet that came with the PCV for the USA models does NOT have a rectangular/square shaped closed loop area. Specifically, at 1750 rpm 20% and 40% throttle cells in the USA version are part of the OPEN LOOP. I was talking to someone a ways back, I dont recall who, who was reading from something, that said the cells I idenified above were part of the closed loop....we debated this for a moment, I got my instruction sheet out and verified my beliefs. 1750 rpms and 20% and 40% throttle cells in the USA version are part of the OPEN LOOP. Go check your instruction sheet for the Euro version and see what you find. If there is an error, I apologize as again I was fed bad information. But it is my understanding that your closed loop areas looks like a rectangle/square and not irregular in shape like the USA version,.

No problem whatsoever. I just want to make sure we all have the facts right so we can hopefully come to the same conclusions if any.

This is the download link for the XT1200Z install manual: http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/22-041/install/pcv/eng22-041.pdf

I cannot find a Euro specific or USA specific (Non Euro) install manual on the Dynojet site. I can only find one, this one.

See http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/powercommander_maps_installs_product_buy_options.aspx?mdlyrid=22-041&make=28&model=118&make-n=Yamaha&model-n=XTZ1200&year=2011


And this is the closed loop range in the install manual:

 

[jajpko]

I think that everyone needs to understand that my bike as well as others are running much better than when stock.

When I am testing the different maps, it's for the sake of wanting to know how, and why there are differences.

I have posted my results and so has Maybert. If you look at those results and can explain why the difference between the maps I am all ears.

@blue-eyes, I am not comparing your map and never have other than to say that it was the first map that everyone was using and nobody took the time to question the high negative values.
Using the same map after putting 0 in the area where you have high negative numbers, and riding for many miles, I have never seen those numbers, or even close.

I'm happy that your bike runs as well as mine and hope it continues to do so..

 

[Blue_eyes]

I just checked all the maps that others have sent to me and the standard maps Dynojet provides:

Spasm: custom made by Hammer & Thongs on the dyno with full Arrow system and baffle in and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -17 to -10 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Spasm: custom made by Hammer & Thongs on the dyno with full Arrow system and baffle removed and K&N: Has mostly negative values ranging from -12 to -4 and some +3 to +8 in the in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Blue_eyes: custom made map by Dynojet on the dyno with Akra slip on only and K&N: Has negative values ranging from -12 to -6 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Blue_eyes: AT map with Akra slip on, Arrow headers and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -17 to -10 and some small positive +2 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Speedstar: AT map with Akra slip on, Arrow headers and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -22 to -1 and some small positive +1 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Speedstar: AT map with Arow slip on, Arrow headers and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -21 to -2 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Jaxon: AT map with Akra slip on, Arrow headers: Has big negative values ranging from -17 to -10 and some small positive +2 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Dynojet standard map with stock exhaust and stock or aftermarket Airfilter: Negative values ranging from -12 to -5 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Dynojet standard map with Akra slip-on and stock or aftermarket Airfiler: Has big negative values ranging from -15 to -8 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.

What I see is that all have (big, bigger) negative numbers either custom done by different tuners on the dyno or by AT, or by Dynojet themselves as stock (on the Euro bike), the Akra or Arrow exhaust askes for bigger negative numbers compared to stock exhaust, and when the Arrow headers are fitted with an aftermarket exhaust even bigger negative numbers are required.
Spasm & my bike are Euro
Jaxon and Speedstar bike are US

So, no matter if the map was custom made by totally different tuners on the dyno, or by AutoTune itself, all result in big negative numbers. Bigger with an aftermarket exhaust and even bigger when the Arrows headers are installed.
These are the facts, no conclusions yet. Let's try to come up with a hypotheses as to why this is as is.

I know that I, Spasm, Jaxon all have their airscrew on the Throttle bodies set to EU standard which is 3/4 out, and have the dash O2 settings to 0.

What is your setup in terms of exhaust, headers, airfilter, airscrew and dash O2 settings?

 

[Blue_eyes]

I just checked all the multiple maps that others have sent to me and the standard maps Dynojet provides:

Spasm: custom made by Hammer & Thongs on the dyno with full Arrow system and baffle in and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -17 to -10 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Spasm: custom made by Hammer & Thongs on the dyno with full Arrow system and baffle removed and K&N: Has mostly negative values ranging from -12 to -4 and some +3 to +8 in the in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Blue_eyes: custom made map by Dynojet on the dyno with Akra slip on only and K&N: Has negative values ranging from -12 to -6 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Blue_eyes: AT map with Akra slip on, Arrow headers and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -17 to -10 and some small positive +2 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Speedstar: AT map with Akra slip on, Arrow headers and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -22 to -1 and some small positive +1 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Speedstar: AT map with Arow slip on, Arrow headers and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -21 to -2 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Jaxon: AT map with Akra slip on, Arrow headers: Has big negative values ranging from -17 to -10 and some small positive +2 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Dynojet standard map with stock exhaust and stock or aftermarket Airfilter: Negative values ranging from -12 to -5 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Dynojet standard map with Akra slip-on and stock or aftermarket Airfiler: Has big negative values ranging from -15 to -8 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.

What I see is that all have (big, bigger) negative numbers either custom made by different tuners on the dyno or by AT, or by Dynojet themselves as stock (on the Euro bike), the Akra or Arrow exhaust askes for bigger negative numbers compared to stock exhaust, and when the Arrow headers are fitted with an aftermarket exhaust even bigger negative numbers are required.
Spasm & my bike are Euro
Jaxon and Speedstar bike are US

So, no matter if the map was custom made by totally different tuners on the dyno, or by AutoTune itself, all result in big negative numbers. Bigger with an aftermarket exhaust and even bigger when the Arrows headers are installed.
These are the facts, no conclusions yet. Let's try to come up with a hypotheses as to why this is as is.

I know that I, Spasm, Jaxon all have their airscrew on the Throttle bodies set to EU standard which is 3/4 out, and have the dash O2 settings to 0.

What is your setup in terms of exhaust, headers, airfilter, airscrew and dash O2 settings?

 

[spasm]

kees, when i get my ecu back i want to get the best out of it all combined. so do you reckon i should put some 8's in the closed loop area ??

 

[jajpko]

I just checked all the maps that others have sent to me and the standard maps Dynojet provides:

Spasm: custom made by Hammer & Thongs on the dyno with full Arrow system and baffle in and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -17 to -10 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Spasm: custom made by Hammer & Thongs on the dyno with full Arrow system and baffle removed and K&N: Has mostly negative values ranging from -12 to -4 and some +3 to +8 in the in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Blue_eyes: custom made map by Dynojet on the dyno with Akra slip on only and K&N: Has negative values ranging from -12 to -6 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Blue_eyes: AT map with Akra slip on, Arrow headers and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -17 to -10 and some small positive +2 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Speedstar: AT map with Akra slip on, Arrow headers and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -22 to -1 and some small positive +1 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Speedstar: AT map with Arow slip on, Arrow headers and K&N: Has big negative values ranging from -21 to -2 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Jaxon: AT map with Akra slip on, Arrow headers: Has big negative values ranging from -17 to -10 and some small positive +2 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Dynojet standard map with stock exhaust and stock or aftermarket Airfilter: Negative values ranging from -12 to -5 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.
Dynojet standard map with Akra slip-on and stock or aftermarket Airfiler: Has big negative values ranging from -15 to -8 in the 60% column next to the closed loop rpm range.

What I see is that all have (big, bigger) negative numbers either custom done by different tuners on the dyno or by AT, or by Dynojet themselves as stock (on the Euro bike), the Akra or Arrow exhaust askes for bigger negative numbers compared to stock exhaust, and when the Arrow headers are fitted with an aftermarket exhaust even bigger negative numbers are required.
Spasm & my bike are Euro
Jaxon and Speedstar bike are US

So, no matter if the map was custom made by totally different tuners on the dyno, or by AutoTune itself, all result in big negative numbers. Bigger with an aftermarket exhaust and even bigger when the Arrows headers are installed.
These are the facts, no conclusions yet. Let's try to come up with a hypotheses as to why this is as is.

I know that I, Spasm, Jaxon all have their airscrew on the Throttle bodies set to EU standard which is 3/4 out, and have the dash O2 settings to 0.

What is your setup in terms of exhaust, headers, airfilter, airscrew and dash O2 settings?

The maps you refer to from the US are your maps that have never had the large negative numbers zeroed out. I posted this earlier. Since putting 0 in the maps, those other values have never returned.

I'm running the same setup as everyone else you mentioned.

 

[Blue_eyes]

kees, when i get my ecu back i want to get the best out of it all combined. so do you reckon i should put some 8's in the closed loop area ??

According to what was posted a few pages up regarding the closed loop area a value between 5 to 12 in the Fuel Map is recommended, so 8 would be a good starting point.
My tuner put 7 in there.

 

[Blue_eyes]

The maps you refer to from the US are your maps that have never had the large negative numbers zeroed out. I posted this earlier. Since putting 0 in the maps, those other values have never returned.

I'm running the same setup as everyone else you mentioned.

Clear. What is the Max enrichment trim % / Max enleanment trim % you set the AT?

Mine is 30%

 

[jajpko]

Clear. What is the Max enrichment trim % / Max enleanment trim % you set the AT?

Mine is 30%

I start the maps at 30% and then after the 4th acceptance, drop to 20%. I have never had trims that would need 30%

 

[YamaPA]

The maps you refer to from the US are your maps that have never had the large negative numbers zeroed out. I posted this earlier. Since putting 0 in the maps, those other values have never returned.

I'm running the same setup as everyone else you mentioned.

BINGO! +++5,000,0000

If the system is working correctly...and that means repeatability.....one should be able to insert -15s throughout the open loop portion of the fuel table map and generate a map with AT. Then one should be able to insert 0s in the fuel table portion of the same map (leaving the closed loop and AFR map the same) and generate a map. THen one should be table to insert +15s in the fuel table portion of the same map (again leaving the closed loop and AFR maps the same) and generate a map. All three maps should look approximately the same when done......within reason given similar weather conidtions and elevation. THEY DONT! If you use a larger negative number map for the fuel table one time and then use 0s in the fuel table the next time, the resulting maps are not even close. The larger negative number map will still have large negative numbers in the finsihed fuel table map and the the map you started with 0s in the fuel table will not have large negative numbers when AT gets finished tuning and an your map is finalized. AT Is not repeatable when you start with large negative numbers in the fuel table. Explain that!

 

[Blue_eyes]

BINGO! +++5,000,0000

If the system is working correctly...and that means repeatability.....one should be able to insert -15s throughout the open loop portion of the fuel table map and generate a map with AT. Then one should be able to insert 0s in the fuel table portion of the same map (leaving the closed loop and AFR map the same) and generate a map. THen one should be table to insert +15s in the fuel table portion of the same map (again leaving the closed loop and AFR maps the same) and generate a map. All three maps should look approximately the same when done......within reason given similar weather conidtions and elevation. THEY DONT! If you use a larger negative number map for the fuel table one time and then use 0s in the fuel table the next time, the resulting maps are not even close. The larger negative number map will still have large negative numbers in the finsihed fuel table map and the the map you started with 0s in the fuel table will not have large negative numbers when AT gets finished tuning and an your map is finalized. AT Is not repeatable when you start with large negative numbers in the fuel table. Explain that!

Clear, but no need to shout. Does this happen for the entire open loop area or only the 60% TP column?

How many "accept trim" iterations do you go through?

What are the Max enrichment trim % / Max enleanment trim % you set the AT?

 

[YamaPA]

Clear, but no need to shout. Does this happen for the entire open loop area or only the 60% TP column?

How many "accept trim" iterations do you go through?

What are the Max enrichment trim % / Max enleanment trim % you set the AT?

It does it throughout the open loop area, but it is most obvious at the 60% column because of the big negative numbers.

I've done the "accept trim" various ways....say 3-4 short rides of 45 minutes to 1 hour each, as well as with say 2 long rides of at least 4-8 hours riding.

BTW, I only meant to shout the BINGO +5,000,000....I guess I didnt shrink the remaining text enough and I thought it was back to "normal" size.
The AT max rich/lean range has always been set to 20...and never, not once, have I seen a trim level of 20.