Runs fine cold start then really rough when warm - O2 sensor bad?

[Moki]

Greetings All - I picked up an issue the other day and struggling to get to the bottom of it...

2013 Super Tenere (US spec) - only mod are TB screws backed out 3/4 turns, and a Barnett spring Clutch conversion.

1. riding home from work after cutting through some nasty road works (fan kicked in a few times as I squirrelled my way through the traffic)
2. A few minutes after clearing the traffic -now running normal temp - bike cuts out, CEL on, and then bike fires up again and runs ok for the rest of the trip.rom
3. Home now - let bike cool off and started fine...idled for a couple mins, I blipped the throttle, the bike dies and the CEL lights. Fired up again with CEL light and she seems to run fine.

A couple of variables I can throw in since sweet ride from Portland down to LA a few months ago:
a. Bike has been transported to Ireland (2 months transit in container)
b. Ran fine a for 2 weeks since arrival
c. New environment - new work is having me get mixed up with city traffic, road works, etc., so running hot a lot of the time

I have checked diagnostics and errors are pointing at a potentially faulty Oxygen sensor - quite plausible as the ones installed look original and I have 80k miles (130k kms) on the clock-OK. As an interim measure until replacements on order arrive, I picked some Oxygen Sensor eliminators, installed then and they make not one bit of difference (WTF?).

Im pretty sure what I am looking at here is the old open and closed loops - from cold (open loop and uses the ECU default map) and then switches over to closed loop when the engine warms up a bit. It seems at the point the fuelling switches to closed loop the really rough idle (like dropping a cylinder) starts, and dies unless I keep on the throttle. Ive also changed over batteries, with the idea that the ECU would get cleared by disconnecting the battery. That didn't work.

SO, while I await delivery of the new O2 sensors, I would like to know if anyone else has had similar issues, and if so, was it a simple O2 sensor replacement and nothing more? I dread the thought of potential endless component replacement until eventually I get to the bottom of it! I did speak to one of the major bike shops in the area and due to high mileage, they didn't want to touch the bike, citing things that seals and wheel bearings might need replacing, etc. - thats after I explained the symptoms. In response, I asked off they had ever done a valve adjustment on an S10 - .."sure, we do those all the time. Takes an hour or so..". Needless to say I'm steering clear. What a bunch of donkeys...

Any advice would be appreciated...

Thanks- Karl

 

[Nikolajsen]

"CEL light" :question:

Check engine ?

 

[Ramseybella]

Greetings All - I picked up an issue the other day and struggling to get to the bottom of it...

2013 Super Tenere (US spec) - only mod are TB screws backed out 3/4 turns, and a Barnett spring Clutch conversion.

1. riding home from work after cutting through some nasty road works (fan kicked in a few times as I squirrelled my way through the traffic)
2. A few minutes after clearing the traffic -now running normal temp - bike cuts out, CEL on, and then bike fires up again and runs ok for the rest of the trip.rom
3. Home now - let bike cool off and started fine...idled for a couple mins, I blipped the throttle, the bike dies and the CEL lights. Fired up again with CEL light and she seems to run fine.

A couple of variables I can throw in since sweet ride from Portland down to LA a few months ago:
a. Bike has been transported to Ireland (2 months transit in container)
b. Ran fine a for 2 weeks since arrival
c. New environment - new work is having me get mixed up with city traffic, road works, etc., so running hot a lot of the time

I have checked diagnostics and errors are pointing at a potentially faulty Oxygen sensor - quite plausible as the ones installed look original and I have 80k miles (130k kms) on the clock-OK. As an interim measure until replacements on order arrive, I picked some Oxygen Sensor eliminators, installed then and they make not one bit of difference (WTF?).

Im pretty sure what I am looking at here is the old open and closed loops - from cold (open loop and uses the ECU default map) and then switches over to closed loop when the engine warms up a bit. It seems at the point the fuelling switches to closed loop the really rough idle (like dropping a cylinder) starts, and dies unless I keep on the throttle. Ive also changed over batteries, with the idea that the ECU would get cleared by disconnecting the battery. That didn't work.

SO, while I await delivery of the new O2 sensors, I would like to know if anyone else has had similar issues, and if so, was it a simple O2 sensor replacement and nothing more? I dread the thought of potential endless component replacement until eventually I get to the bottom of it! I did speak to one of the major bike shops in the area and due to high mileage, they didn't want to touch the bike, citing things that seals and wheel bearings might need replacing, etc. - thats after I explained the symptoms. In response, I asked off they had ever done a valve adjustment on an S10 - .."sure, we do those all the time. Takes an hour or so..". Needless to say I'm steering clear. What a bunch of donkeys...

Any advice would be appreciated...

Thanks- Karl

Karl, the last part pinches a nerve with my local Yamaha/Mix brand dealer. The service manager told me he couldn't adjust the throttle bodies quoting " I don't have the right tool to do it".. And followed by "I Just wont work on your bike".
Hope you find the ghost, us High, Low and won't rpm owners haven't found ours. :'(

 

[Dogdaze]

"CEL light" :question:

Check engine ?

Yes.

OP, have you checked basic stuff like loose connections etc?
Also, are you in the US or Ireland now, if in Ireland perhaps contact the Yamaha specialist based in central UK, (name will come to me later) who tore down Nick Sanders bike....

 

[fraserdog]

Yes.

OP, have you checked basic stuff like loose connections etc?
Also, are you in the US or Ireland now, if in Ireland perhaps contact the Yamaha specialist based in central UK, (name will come to me later) who tore down Nick Sanders bike....

Alf England?

 

[fraserdog]

Could a coil pack be possibly be breaking down with the heat?

 

[Dogdaze]

Alf England?

That's the fellla ::008::
Also, ::026:: on the coil pack. Faulty O2 sensors will make the bike run like crap, in my personal experience, but not kill the bike.

 

[Moki]

Yes.

OP, have you checked basic stuff like loose connections etc?
Also, are you in the US or Ireland now, if in Ireland perhaps contact the Yamaha specialist based in central UK, (name will come to me later) who tore down Nick Sanders bike....

Hi - YES, I've relocated to Ireland. And yep, I've checked and rechecked all the basic connection stuff....

 

[Moki]

"CEL light" :question:

Check engine ?

Yes - Check Engine Light (CEL)...

 

[Moki]

Could a coil pack be possibly be breaking down with the heat?

Yeah, I initially thought about coils.....but then thought to myself "...why does it seemingly run just fine when the CEL on?". I'm thinking off a coil goes south its an all or nothing thing!

 

[EricV]

Sounds like you are in Ireland, which limits the number of dealerships and good shops can be harder to find.

Well, there are several questions that come up from what you have said. Sorry to start from scratch here, but the lack of info doesn't help us to help you.

Who did the throttle body sync and 3/4 out, and when? Do you understand that it's 3/4 out from all the way in? (Not 3/4 out from where it was to start with.)

Do you know how to get into diagnostic mode? Here is how to check:
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=1974.0

What actual codes did you find when you checked the diagnostics?

Did you delete the existing error codes? If you did not, they still can impact the bike, despite changes like the O2 delete or new O2 sensors. Here are directions:
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=17354.0

If you deleted the error codes, which codes came back and how long did that take? (if the condition still exists, the error codes will come back shortly. Some take a riding cycle to full warm up and use before showing back up.)

Have you checked the cheap and simple things? Spark plugs not corroded, coil packs not damaged, wires all securely plugged in, battery connections tight, air cleaner not clogged or excessively dirty, no mouse nests in the air box, the two vent lines to the fuel tank not kinked or blocked (this happens commonly when the tank is lifted and put back down. Both vent lines should draw down enough to clip back into the metal retaining clip in the specific spot between protective covers on the lines), no pressure in the gas tank, vent at the filler cap clean, etc?

Air, Fuel, Spark. These bikes are pretty basic really. Your problem lies in one of these three areas. Figure out which one and you can start to look at more specific parts of the system.

O2 sensors don't really make the bike run bad when they die. It simply defaults to the base maps in the ECU when it fails to get a signal that is varying back and forth across stoichiometric. You can test the O2 output fairly easily. Typical O2 sensor has 3 or 4 wires. Power and ground to the heater, (or just power), and the other two wires for the signal to the ECU which varies as it hunts. A steady signal voltage means a bad sensor. (It's been a while since I tested one, so if someone notes an error in my post, please correct me). I can look up the test procedure later in the FSM if you ask me.

Do the best you can to answer these questions and check these areas and post back. It will help everyone to narrow the focus of your issues.

 

[Moki]

Sounds like you are in Ireland, which limits the number of dealerships and good shops can be harder to find.

Well, there are several questions that come up from what you have said. Sorry to start from scratch here, but the lack of info doesn't help us to help you.

Who did the throttle body sync and 3/4 out, and when? Do you understand that it's 3/4 out from all the way in? (Not 3/4 out from where it was to start with.)

Do you know how to get into diagnostic mode? Here is how to check:
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=1974.0

What actual codes did you find when you checked the diagnostics?

Did you delete the existing error codes? If you did not, they still can impact the bike, despite changes like the O2 delete or new O2 sensors. Here are directions:
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=17354.0

If you deleted the error codes, which codes came back and how long did that take? (if the condition still exists, the error codes will come back shortly. Some take a riding cycle to full warm up and use before showing back up.)

Have you checked the cheap and simple things? Spark plugs not corroded, coil packs not damaged, wires all securely plugged in, battery connections tight, air cleaner not clogged or excessively dirty, no mouse nests in the air box, the two vent lines to the fuel tank not kinked or blocked (this happens commonly when the tank is lifted and put back down. Both vent lines should draw down enough to clip back into the metal retaining clip in the specific spot between protective covers on the lines), no pressure in the gas tank, vent at the filler cap clean, etc?

Air, Fuel, Spark. These bikes are pretty basic really. Your problem lies in one of these three areas. Figure out which one and you can start to look at more specific parts of the system.

O2 sensors don't really make the bike run bad when they die. It simply defaults to the base maps in the ECU when it fails to get a signal that is varying back and forth across stoichiometric. You can test the O2 output fairly easily. Typical O2 sensor has 3 or 4 wires. Power and ground to the heater, (or just power), and the other two wires for the signal to the ECU which varies as it hunts. A steady signal voltage means a bad sensor. (It's been a while since I tested one, so if someone notes an error in my post, please correct me). I can look up the test procedure later in the FSM if you ask me.

Do the best you can to answer these questions and check these areas and post back. It will help everyone to narrow the focus of your issues.

Thanks EricV,

I did the TBS and 3/4 out (from fully-in). Has been running well for a year since.

Yes, I did get i to Diag mode. When first into diag the d:61 codes showed 13, 14, 30, 60, and 69. Looks like 13, 14 and 30 are O2 sensor related and the rest are YCC-T related.

Cleared codes and fired up the bike with the O2 sensor eliminators and let it run rough and die- diags showed no d:61, errors but did show the following:
d:01 14
d:15 18
d:14 18
d:13 13
d:08 1.1
d:06 106
d:05 66
d:03 99

Changed battery and swapped back to the in-situe O2 sensors, fired the bike up and let run rough until it died.

Same codes as above:
, give or take a couple temp readings
d:01 14
d:15 18
d:14 18
d:13 13
d:08 1.1
d:06 103
d:05 66
d:03 98

I was surprised no d:61 errors codes.

I'll go back and pull and reseat all connectors I can find, check fuel lines etc. I haven't had the tank up in the last few months, but will check hoses, fuel cap vent, etc.

The weird thing is that it runs well when cold, and then around a minute later it runs like sh*t, hunts then dies.

Thanks - Karl

 

[Lutsie]

One quick check. Do you still have the Evap canister? If so, try bypassing it temporarily. If gas or other fluid got into it, it may choke the engine.

My brother in law had your exact issue( ran great cold, as soon as it warmed bike hunted and died). Figured out when he put the bike down weeks before fuel had spilled into the canister and clogged the vacuum enough to kill the bike after it warmed up.

Easy check that won't cost you anything other than a startup.

Good luck.
Ryan


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Don in Lodi]

Just curious, did you do anything to the bike the weekend before that commute home? Several people have damned Yamaha for using so few different electrical connectors. Injector harness and coil harness come to mind. Not your issue, that prevents start-up altogether.
Your O2 Eliminators cleared that off your list of possibles.

 

[Moki]

Just curious, did you do anything to the bike the weekend before that commute home? Several people have damned Yamaha for using so few different electrical connectors. Injector harness and coil harness come to mind. Not your issue, that prevents start-up altogether.
Your O2 Eliminators cleared that off your list of possibles.

I haven't so much as lifted the seat since being rolled off the boat a couple of weeks ago. Had ridden 80-100 miles every day since.

After the initial CEL event, and subsequent install of the O2 sensor eliminators that resulted in the bike running even worse, I am starting to narrow my focus on to disturbed connectors. The wiring bundle was really crammed in there, so a fair amount of force was needed to access the O2 sensor connectors. I'll double check everything in that area.

The strange thing is that is runs well cold, but then goes downhill after presumably entering the closed loop fuelling circuit. ... I dunno...

Thanks- Karl

 

[Don in Lodi]

Looking in from the left side below the tank you can see if the MAP sensor vacuum became unplugged. That's one sensor that goes active on closed loop. It's just a Barometer sensor in open loop. Scroll through to Engine Temp, maybe Air Temp too. A faulty ECT will kill a motor. If fueling thinks it's -40 she'll quit running.

 

[jbrown]

How does the bike run under heavy acceleration? It's not in a closed loop situation when you are hard on the gas, so the O2 sensors can be taken out of the equation if the bike still runs bad when you nail it.

 

[2daMax]

Error code 14 points to a bad MAP sensor or that sensor is affected by foreign factors. I get this when i jumper a T fitting for a TB sync. When cold it behaves but once warmed out it starts to sputter irregularly with erratic idling.

I did notice high mileage bikes has oil residue at the TB barbs and if these residue could get to the barbs it can possibly get to the Map Sensor and contaminate it. High heat could have encourage oil mist to travel to the Map sensor during low vacuum conditions.

I can't advice if the sensor can be cleaned by IPA. If u can get a known good MAP sensor then you can do this process of elimination.

 

[Moki]

Looking in from the left side below the tank you can see if the MAP sensor vacuum became unplugged. That's one sensor that goes active on closed loop. It's just a Barometer sensor in open loop. Scroll through to Engine Temp, maybe Air Temp too. A faulty ECT will kill a motor. If fueling thinks it's -40 she'll quit running.

Thanks Don, you were spot on with the MAP sensor. It was still plugged in, but the sensor has given up the ghost. Unplugged the MAP sensor and the CEL comes on and the bike runs (OK). Plug it back in and it won't run unless cold. I've ordered a new sensor so should be back on the road soon. ::012::

Thanks again!
Karl

 

[Moki]

How does the bike run under heavy acceleration? It's not in a closed loop situation when you are hard on the gas, so the O2 sensors can be taken out of the equation if the bike still runs bad when you nail it.

Hey the bike wouldn't run once cold - opened throttle but fluctuates between 3-5k until let go and then dies.

Issue has been isolated to a duff MAP sensor

Thanks
Karl