Obrianmcc
New Member
... at least the pan alone can be replaced.... on a few other bikes it would require removal of engine and splitting of the cases to repair or replace.
Oil change gone bad... Help!
- Thread starter MikeBear
- Start date
My $0.02 is: 1) unless it is completely oil tight, fix it properly; and 2) whether you helicoil, timesert, weld/drill/retap, drill/retap to a larger size, or replace (any, done properly, can result in an acceptable repair depending on the layout of the sump).... take the sump off and do the work off the bike. This is not really a DIY if you're a novice.
Given that the sump is replaceable and not-too-unreasonable cost (about $120 discounted from several online vendors), I'd probably just replace, especially since the cost of all the proper pieces to do a good helicoil or timesert can become expensive very fast - last time I did one, I had to buy an odd-size drill bit for $50 and the kit was $35. The part no is 23P-13417-00-00.
- Mark
Given that the sump is replaceable and not-too-unreasonable cost (about $120 discounted from several online vendors), I'd probably just replace, especially since the cost of all the proper pieces to do a good helicoil or timesert can become expensive very fast - last time I did one, I had to buy an odd-size drill bit for $50 and the kit was $35. The part no is 23P-13417-00-00.
- Mark
~
The more I pondered this thread the more I thought the OP really has a wonderful opportunity here...
Go ahead and replace the sump with a new one, then take the damaged one to a proper welder/fabricator to have the stripped drain hole welded up. But while it's there talk to the welder/fabricator about strengthening the sump... Perhaps filling and/or building up some of the area around the drain plug bosses... And welding on some fore-to-aft ribs/fins all the way from front to back. Nothing too tall so they easily clear all the readily available skid plates. Just enough to make the sump plate less fragile and a bit tougher.
Just an idea...
Dallara
~
The more I pondered this thread the more I thought the OP really has a wonderful opportunity here...
Go ahead and replace the sump with a new one, then take the damaged one to a proper welder/fabricator to have the stripped drain hole welded up. But while it's there talk to the welder/fabricator about strengthening the sump... Perhaps filling and/or building up some of the area around the drain plug bosses... And welding on some fore-to-aft ribs/fins all the way from front to back. Nothing too tall so they easily clear all the readily available skid plates. Just enough to make the sump plate less fragile and a bit tougher.
Just an idea...
Dallara
~
MikeBear
New Member
I can't afford to plunge hundreds of dollars into this. I have two more bikes to ride at the moment.
If heli-coil with qwikvalve for some reason doesn't work out, then yes, I will get new cover.
About qwikvalve. If you take a look at one without nipple (F-109), then you'll see, that it's not sticking out much more, then your regular plug. I will take pictures ones I get everything installed.
BTW with qwikvalve I am not going for quicker oil changes. I am going for not taking oil drain plug out every time I do oil change.
If heli-coil with qwikvalve for some reason doesn't work out, then yes, I will get new cover.
About qwikvalve. If you take a look at one without nipple (F-109), then you'll see, that it's not sticking out much more, then your regular plug. I will take pictures ones I get everything installed.
BTW with qwikvalve I am not going for quicker oil changes. I am going for not taking oil drain plug out every time I do oil change.
Properly torqued (use a torque wrench if you need to), there is no reason for the drain plugs to ever be a problem. A Qwikvalve opens up a can of worms with a lot more risk than a properly tightened drainplug. And if you're sensitive about costs, why add $50+ to your bill for two Qwikvalves?MikeBear said:
- Mark
I could weld/drill/tap for you, but then you have postage to and from Louisiana. I would have to research the size, and ensure I have proper drill (metric size) and tap. I have several but as usually is the case, probably not the right size. ::010::
New drill and tap, probably less than $30.
Bottom line, machine shops do this all the time, no biggie if you have one nearby that is not booked. Simple job really, 1 hour tops. If there is enough meat (the casting is thicker where the drill/tap plug goes), then drill next size, tap, for plug on hand.
New drill and tap, probably less than $30.
Bottom line, machine shops do this all the time, no biggie if you have one nearby that is not booked. Simple job really, 1 hour tops. If there is enough meat (the casting is thicker where the drill/tap plug goes), then drill next size, tap, for plug on hand.
markjenn said:
Amen! Can I have an Amen!
Let's see... A $120 sump is way too expensive despite the fact it's the most thorough, dependable, professional, clean, effective repair...
But a first-time attempt installation of a Heli-Coil, which if done properly will require the labor of removing the sump anyway along with potentially replacing the same gasket (and its cost) one would use if they were replacing the sump... And this first-time attempt at such a Heli-Coil installation could conceivably fail, and therefore could potentially cause engine damage due to loss of lubricant - as well potentially cause a crash if such a Heli-Coil failure dumped the plug and oiled the rear tire, say, in mid-corner, in traffic... And then one adds $50 or more in the cost of two Fumoto valves (which bring along their own potential problems, too)... So in this instance we have more labor, a weaker and potentially more dangerous repair, and most likely well more than half the cost of a new sump...
Hmmmmm... I dunno'. I certainly know which way I'd go with my $12,000 to $15,000 dollar motorcycle - as well as my life.
But hey, I wish you all the best fortune in the world and sincerely hope the Heli)Coil goes in perfect, works forever, the Fumoto's go in without incident and never cause any of their potential problems in the future, and everything goes according to plan! ::001::
Good luck! ::016::
Dallara
~
autoteach
New Member
people are still talking about this? I stopped after I read that he stripped the drain plug. That takes a level of torque that I am not willing to discuss.
went through this with my FJR ... misplaced my small ratchet and stripped the plug with a 1/2 incher ... went with a new pan ... no regrets. ::017::
Baja Explorer
We Dream the Imposible !!
my friend:
three days later...........again, I recommend ordering a new pan, I used to do lot of McGyver stuff, ,at the end it pays to do it the right way..... ::020::
three days later...........again, I recommend ordering a new pan, I used to do lot of McGyver stuff, ,at the end it pays to do it the right way..... ::020::
autoteach
New Member
ok, I will play along...DO NOT DRILL and Helicoil. Why risk the possibility of shavings getting in the engine or using RonH's recommendations of filling your engine with 2 gallons of oil and trying to drill it as it sprays you in the face??? Loctite has a product, Form-A-Thread, that will likely also fail without the risk of shavings in the engine. Your ::004::
MikeBear
New Member
I see some of us getting a little bit overexcited about this 8)
I can only imagine all of us meeting next year. Thins will be something
I can only imagine all of us meeting next year. Thins will be something
autoteach
New Member
Another possible solution...Oil pan will likely not leak if you keep the bike in this position: http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=5085.0
MikeBear
New Member
I will also get great fuel mileage and tires will las forever.autoteach said:
I'm post #57.
I have no advice.
I just was feeling left out.
I have no advice.
I just was feeling left out.
hANNAbONE
...Patiently Waited...
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EricV
Riding, farkling, riding...
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We all have our comfort levels, and personal experiences. I've installed thousands of helicoils, both in manufacturing and personal projects. I'm comfortable with that option. I've drilled oil pans before too, on the vehicle. There are some tricks you can use to minimize chips, but at the end of the day, come on, aluminum chips? You're not seriously worried about a few aluminum chips in an oil sump are you? Autoteach, don't tell me you haven't see the crap in the bottom of many sumps from the manufacturer or after lots of miles.
I like Timeserts, but personally prefer to use them where there is enough meat to have a lip at the bottom of the oversize threads so the Timesert really locks into place well and isn't relying upon just the top chamfer lip. Spark plug applications come to mind. I suspect there is not that much meat on the sump. And I echo the thought that going up a size might be risky for the same lack of material reason. Drilling to the helicoil or Timesert size is already a chance.
On the quick valve, for those not familiar with them, there is a lock tab that prevents it from just being pushed open. You have to press the tab up first, then rotate, and it takes significant force to do so.
That said, we have seen impacts to some skid plates force the stock oil drain plug thru the sump already, so even a litte more sticking out would concern me.
For the complexity involved, pull the pan, it's just not that difficult on the Super Ten. At that point, WTF, getting it welded sort of becomes minor. The cost to weld is probably not so far from the cost to buy a helicoil/Timesert kit. I already have the helicoil stuff in the garage, so would have probably just done that for simplicity sake.
Something to make mention of is that OEMs use helicoils in areas where the customer or end user is likely to be taking things apart often or for regular service, to avoid thread damage. A steel helicoil in aluminum is stronger than just aluminum threads.
And Dallera, my friend, a helicoil "failure" is only going to happen on a drain plug when it's being tightened, not just going down the road. Its not exactly a stressed application.
As a final note, WTF Over, crush washers are used here boys. One of the reasons to use a crush washer is to give you a little leeway if you over do the torque. And the oem crush washer is copper, not a one time use hollow one on this plug. ::005:: If you kept tightening past the point where you were just flattening the hell out of the crush washer, it must have already been damn thin. That may be the only issue here to begin with.
I like Timeserts, but personally prefer to use them where there is enough meat to have a lip at the bottom of the oversize threads so the Timesert really locks into place well and isn't relying upon just the top chamfer lip. Spark plug applications come to mind. I suspect there is not that much meat on the sump. And I echo the thought that going up a size might be risky for the same lack of material reason. Drilling to the helicoil or Timesert size is already a chance.
On the quick valve, for those not familiar with them, there is a lock tab that prevents it from just being pushed open. You have to press the tab up first, then rotate, and it takes significant force to do so.
That said, we have seen impacts to some skid plates force the stock oil drain plug thru the sump already, so even a litte more sticking out would concern me.
For the complexity involved, pull the pan, it's just not that difficult on the Super Ten. At that point, WTF, getting it welded sort of becomes minor. The cost to weld is probably not so far from the cost to buy a helicoil/Timesert kit. I already have the helicoil stuff in the garage, so would have probably just done that for simplicity sake.
Something to make mention of is that OEMs use helicoils in areas where the customer or end user is likely to be taking things apart often or for regular service, to avoid thread damage. A steel helicoil in aluminum is stronger than just aluminum threads.
And Dallera, my friend, a helicoil "failure" is only going to happen on a drain plug when it's being tightened, not just going down the road. Its not exactly a stressed application.
As a final note, WTF Over, crush washers are used here boys. One of the reasons to use a crush washer is to give you a little leeway if you over do the torque. And the oem crush washer is copper, not a one time use hollow one on this plug. ::005:: If you kept tightening past the point where you were just flattening the hell out of the crush washer, it must have already been damn thin. That may be the only issue here to begin with.
EricV said:
I can see your point, Eric... But I've also seen guys bugger the drilling and tapping job so bad, particularly on a thin casting like this sump, that the Heli-Coil simply threaded right out with the bolt (drain plug in this case), often immediately after it was tightened. Granted, I've seen it happen more to guys who had no idea the proper way to use a tap, but still...
It just seems to me that a thin sump like this is not the best place for the OP to be trying his *first* Heli-Coil installation, particularly if he's gonna' try and do it on the bike. Like you said (and me before you), the first thing he needs to do is pull the sump. That's the right course of action. Then he can actually inspect the drain threads properly. If it were me I'd replace the sump if the threads were damaged. But if I didn't take that route, then again, as you and I both mentioned, it's just too friggin' easy to weld up the hole, drill it, and properly tap it. I think you and I can both agree that either a new sump, or welding up the hole and properly re-tapping it, are both vastly superior repair directions on a thin sump like this than either a Heli-Coil or Timesert.
But hey, it's not our bike, right?
Dallara
~
EricV
Riding, farkling, riding...
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As I said, we each have our own comfort levels. I can not disagree with you. ^-^
At this point, it does make sense to just pull the pan and get some welding action done.
Or replace the pan/sump. I have reservations about any ability to reinforce the sump with welding. In the end, it's still a cast aluminum sump. (wish we had gotten steel).
And yes, there is a learning curve with installing helicoils. Like I said, comfort levels vary. As a machinist of 25 years, my comfort level with helicoils is higher than most. I need to remember that what's "easy" for me is not necessarily easy for someone w/o my experience. That's a fair call.
At this point, it does make sense to just pull the pan and get some welding action done.
Or replace the pan/sump. I have reservations about any ability to reinforce the sump with welding. In the end, it's still a cast aluminum sump. (wish we had gotten steel).
And yes, there is a learning curve with installing helicoils. Like I said, comfort levels vary. As a machinist of 25 years, my comfort level with helicoils is higher than most. I need to remember that what's "easy" for me is not necessarily easy for someone w/o my experience. That's a fair call.
just want to add that although over tightening does not happen very often. it does happen. so whatever option is taken, this is something that we can all learn from. the thread has been a little emotional but lets not let that get in the way. plese keep us informed with the status of the fix or fixes. and good luck!