Manual cct

[kevinh]

So after many years of toying with the idea of having a manual cct fitted, I ordered the ape took it too the shop to have fitted and after reading many stories about how quickly thay can be fitted, I thought sweet it'll be done in an hour or so I thought , gave the shop a call and was surprised when they told me they fitted it according to the yamaha way, and the chain jumped so the cylinder head etc has had to be taken off etc etc, I'm a little baffled as to why some say it's easy and the shop have told me otherwise?

 

[bimota]

wow,
i rode my bike to a back street mechanic but he,s one of the best in s wales uk, i gave him the ape and clutch gasket, he took the clutch cover off did the cable tie thing on the tension pulled the oem one off put ape in, cluch gasket on came in the shop 45 minutes later told me done paid £40
that was 3 yrs ago

rob

 

[tntmo]

Sounds like your shop may be staffed by buffoons and idiots, but that's just a guess.

 

[RCinNC]

Well, it sounds like the service tech at your shop failed to properly secure the tension on the cam chain when they removed the old CCT.

I do 95% of my own maintenance on my bike, but I do take it to a shop for the valve checks. I've been to four different Yamaha shops in the nine years I've owned the bike, and at each shop, the techs were not all that familiar with the Super Tenere. At one place, they'd never even seen one before. That doesn't mean the techs aren't competent to work on the bike; it just means that sometimes, they aren't totally familiar with the quirks that individual bikes might have. A tech might think, "hell, I've changed lots of CCT's on Yamahas, this won't be any different" and then doesn't look too closely at their service instructions to realize how critical it is to keep tension on the chain for this particular model through one method or another, or else the results are exactly what you experienced. Or maybe the tech used a wedge or something for tension, and knocked it loose while he was working on the bike. Mechanics do screw up sometimes, even when they're following the book.

I would think that, for an experienced tech, changing a CCT would be a pretty easy process, as long as they familiarized themselves with any quirks of the particular model they were working on before they started turning a wrench. I would get pissed though if they tried to charge me for the extra hours of correcting their own mistake. The only way the chain jumps when you change a cam chain tensioner is if you do it wrong, and that's on them.

 

[~TABASCO~]

This is probably a classic case of the "art" of the job....... Or "experience" is a better way............. Setting up a MCCT is not black and white, toss it in and it works...... It sounds by what you have written as if they started the motor and then it jumped and died...... They then would realize what has just happened...... Keep in mind that if they remove the head they will need about $600 worth of new head studs... DO NOT USE THEM TWICE....... Not only that but if they 'test road' the bike when this happened, there is a 99% chance that one or more valves might be bent, probably on the intake side...... Depending on the RPM, worst case is a valve got bent and damaged the head.

So.... If they did not ride the bike but the bike wont start after the MCCT was installed that means that the head doesn't need to come off... Not sure if they are trying to charge you more money / labor / Etc....

To be honest, I installed only a MCCT before and I did everything like 'normal' and heard the "click"....... This means the intake cam clicked over the teeth and moved....... I had to take it upon myself to remove the valve cover and re set the cams properly back to normal........ So sometimes its just an accident and it happens... but in my case the motor was never turned over or started and no chance of any damage.......

In your case it sounds like they started it and or revved it up and it was loose and kicked over a tooth or two and then the motor died......... In this case you would / should pull the head, Etc.................. Don't use those head studs again, obviously dont pay for all of that... BTW- last time I needed head studs for the Tenere they are from Japan and long wait times..... .

If you need or want more info or details just let me know..........................

 

[WJBertrand]

The only reason to take the head off, to correct a timing chain jump, is if it happened while the engine was running and bent one or more valves. Sounds like they screwed the pooch on this one…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[RCinNC]

I have to figure that, if they'd run the engine and bent a valve, they'd be having a conversation with the owner about time and costs. I don't think a shop is going to start on major engine work, even if they're going to be paying for it, without giving the owner a heads up that the two hour job they originally anticipated is now going to take a lot longer while they wait for new valves from Yamaha. If I was the owner, I think I'd be on the phone with the shop ASAP, before they turned a wrench, and started asking relevant questions like "what actually happened, and what was the damage, and who's paying for it?".

I think it's possible that they meant that they had to take off the valve cover, and not the head. At least, for the OP's sake, that's what I hope they meant. It's certainly possible that the tech heard that same click as Tabasco did, and instantly realized that he'd just turned a short job into a longer one. It might not be the worst case scenario.

 

[bimota]

similar today mt mate on my recommendation bout a APE in the UK at £108 his mechanic today struggled to fit it charged him 7 hours labour and billed him £576 IT COST ME £45
F-CK

 

[RCinNC]

Seven hours labor suggests to me that another mechanic heard the "click" that he inadvertently caused, only they want the consumer to pay for it.

 

[bimota]

Seven hours labor suggests to me that another mechanic heard the "click" that he inadvertently caused, only they want the consumer to pay for it.

hi,

the one above RCinNC is a seperate one to the OP, THIS is what happened today to my mate seperately not the OP

Rob

 

[RCinNC]

Oh, I realized that, Rob. My point was that, if your buddy got charged for seven hours of labor for the installation of an APE cam chain tensioner, then the labor was either being done by a mechanic in an iron lung, or else the mechanic messed up somewhere along the way and your buddy is being charged for the mechanic's mistake.

I really don't know what the book time is in a shop for a CCT replacement, but I bet it's way less than seven hours. Back in 2021 I had a valve check performed and a CCT installed at the same time, and the shop charged me for 4.5 hours for everything.

 

[bimota]

Oh, I realized that, Rob. My point was that, if your buddy got charged for seven hours of labor for the installation of an APE cam chain tensioner, then the labor was either being done by a mechanic in an iron lung, or else the mechanic messed up somewhere along the way and your buddy is being charged for the mechanic's mistake.

I really don't know what the book time is in a shop for a CCT replacement, but I bet it's way less than seven hours. Back in 2021 I had a valve check performed and a CCT installed at the same time, and the shop charged me for 4.5 hours for everything.

the worst thing for my mate was that they were in there 2 yrs ago doing a valve ckeck, he didn,t do it then but now because he,s seen the videos etc on how to do it quickly in through the cluch cover, he bought a manual cct and showed the guys how to do it this way but they still
went in the top saying this is how the yamaha tech,s do it, they said they did it how a yam tech would do it and it jumped a tooth so thats why there saying it took that long, i said kev get the f--k away from that garage

whitch funny enough is very very similar to the OP above situation and same day 2 different garages


rob

 

[Boris]

So after many years of toying with the idea of having a manual cct fitted, I ordered the ape took it too the shop to have fitted and after reading many stories about how quickly thay can be fitted, I thought sweet it'll be done in an hour or so I thought , gave the shop a call and was surprised when they told me they fitted it according to the yamaha way, and the chain jumped so the cylinder head etc has had to be taken off etc etc, I'm a little baffled as to why some say it's easy and the shop have told me otherwise?

Which shop did the work?

 

[Matt51F1]

This is a great topic to follow as I have a 2010 model with the original CCT. I have a Graves in the way from the USA (coming through a freight forwarder as postage was calculated at US$60 through Graves instead of US$15 through the forwarder).

I don’t know what it’s like in the UK or USA but, out here, a large majority of the mechs in the shops are apprentices or only a couple of years out of their apprenticeships & haven’t seen much in the way of bikes other than the latest & newest. If it doesn’t plug into the computer to tell them what’s wrong with it, they’re lost.

I’ve never used a zip tie to hold the cam chain when doing work on it but it’ll be worth looking to see how it goes & will probably use it when I swap it over on mine. I’ve got to do the shims on a 2008 TDM tomorrow if I can find the box that has the shims in it (still unpacking the shed boxes from moving here over a year ago )

A dealer charging over £500 for swapping over a CCT is theft! They need to have their name plastered all over the place as somewhere to NOT go.

 

[bimota]

i,m very lucky the guy a hour up the road from me is a genious, he,s stripped bmw engines down, ducati engines down, all the jap stuff old and new proper proper enginer mechanic and very reasonable to
heres my bill, for valve check, rear swing arm off and serviced and lubed etc and on his facebook site he loaded loads of picture up as the bike was being done.

 

[Matt51F1]

i,m very lucky the guy a hour up the road from me is a genious, he,s stripped bmw engines down, ducati engines down, all the jap stuff old and new proper proper enginer mechanic and very reasonable to
heres my bill, for valve check, rear swing arm off and serviced and lubed etc and on his facebook site he loaded loads of picture up as the bike was being done.

Now, THAT’S the sort of bloke & business that you call out from the rooftops as being great.

But you also don’t because otherwise they get too busy & can’t get in & they retire early from burnout

 

[~TABASCO~]

This is a great topic to follow as I have a 2010 model with the original CCT. I have a Graves in the way from the USA (coming through a freight forwarder as postage was calculated at US$60 through Graves instead of US$15 through the forwarder).

I don’t know what it’s like in the UK or USA but, out here, a large majority of the mechs in the shops are apprentices or only a couple of years out of their apprenticeships & haven’t seen much in the way of bikes other than the latest & newest. If it doesn’t plug into the computer to tell them what’s wrong with it, they’re lost.

I’ve never used a zip tie to hold the cam chain when doing work on it but it’ll be worth looking to see how it goes & will probably use it when I swap it over on mine. I’ve got to do the shims on a 2008 TDM tomorrow if I can find the box that has the shims in it (still unpacking the shed boxes from moving here over a year ago )

A dealer charging over £500 for swapping over a CCT is theft! They need to have their name plastered all over the place as somewhere to NOT go.

IMOP, the GRAVES unit was the correct choice here......... good job.... The threads are much finer on the Graves and you have more control over the adjustment. It also has the oil relief hole machined into it. Ive installed about all the brands out there on the market, I have first hand experience with virtually all these manufactures.

Just a friendly reminder to all the folks, just because a shop installs a MCCT in your bike DOES NOT mean it's set up properly and it's ready to rock-N-roll.... I have re-adjusted MANY that just came from a shop or someone else has installed.

Recently someone reached out to me, bringing up a sound and installing a MCCT, Etc......... I believe this person was from another country otherwise we would have spoken over the phone to cover a lot more ground. We spoke about several ideas and thoughts I had....... A few days later he sends me some some update photos (I will try and find these to post). These are several photos that show the "wear guides" this motor has for the cam chain completely destroyed.... Someone installed his MCCT and screwed the tensioner down to "make sure" the chain would not skip....... (for folks that have not performed this job, this is easy to do....... not correct at all,,,, but physically easy to do) With so much tension on the wear bushings for the chain, it chewed though all of these and all the way down to the aluminum backing structure of the left and right side of the motor..... (or the up and down for the chain)...... Not only did it tear all that wear material off but it chewed into lots of aluminum and spit that all over inside the motor............ It was a really big mess...... I think one of our last photos and messages was him pulling the oil pan and checking the oil pump pick up screen...... Both had crap all in it.....

This is not to scare people.... But to correctly set up once of these is a little "song and dance"...... a bit of back and forth and taking notes (for me, this is how I do it). I go back and forth between tight and loose probably five + times, and then I split the difference... This with the GRAVES unit is typically between 1/4 - 1/2 of a rotation at that stage......

For folks that dont know. The APE has course threads, the Graves has fine threads. The Graves is easier to dial in and make less of a mistake. The APE has course threads (along with most other manufactures - course threads) This is easier to get a bit wrong because a little turn goes a long way..... Most mechanics are not going to sit and turn it to make it tight, then back it off to loose... They are not going to dial it in and make sure it's set up 100%....... If a mechanic says it's set up 100%, ask them how many times did it take going "tight / loose" to finally get it in the middle........... I bet they stare at you with a blank stare and try and make you feel like you're dumb and you dont know what you're talking about..... The truth is, if you have read this, YOU are the one that knows what they are talking about, the mechanic doesn't know and probably just doing "what he thinks is correct".......... All of these MCCT's are not ""fallow these directions and everything will be perfect"", it's not that type of situation. Every bike is a little different, all of these cam chains are stretched a little different, the wear on everyones 'wear guides' are a little different, and the over all manufacturing of all these bikes is a little different....................................... All of this leads to that each install of a MCCT is a little different and needs to be properly adjusted by someone that has a clue, and WANTS to take the proper time to listen to the motor and make damn sure its set up properly....... The average customer that pays someone is depending on that mechanic, but again, that doesn't mean it's set up properly..........

If it helps anyone I can re write the steps I take to install these MCCT if someone likes..... Ive written it out several times...... But I feel its important and if it can help someone not -F- there motor I'll write it out again..........

 

[~TABASCO~]

i,m very lucky the guy a hour up the road from me is a genious, he,s stripped bmw engines down, ducati engines down, all the jap stuff old and new proper proper enginer mechanic and very reasonable to
heres my bill, for valve check, rear swing arm off and serviced and lubed etc and on his facebook site he loaded loads of picture up as the bike was being done.

What a GREAT job with the documentation !! This guy is doing a very good job..... Proper paper work and photos ! The way it always should be !! ! !

 

[Matt51F1]

IMOP, the GRAVES unit was the correct choice here......... good job....
...

If it helps anyone I can re write the steps I take to install these MCCT if someone likes..... Ive written it out several times...... But I feel its important and if it can help someone not -F- there motor I'll write it out again..........

I’ve done the work several times but I’m always open to a different interpretation in case I miss something.

If you have destructions there () , I’d gladly like to have a look & take on board what you’ve got.

My old TDM has 266,000km on it & the CCT & hyvo chain is still as good as ever. The cams are worn to hell but I’m not going to replace them as everything has worn down together & it’ll create a weak link somewhere else in the motor. Still rides beautifully though although a little down on power.

 

[~TABASCO~]

Found them........................ MCCT to tight, smoked the internals.......