Mandatory recall coming: Hard start

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Ramseybella

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:mad: Hell calling my local Yamaha dealer is like asking a rock for directions, they could care less. Unless you want to buy something.
 

Checkswrecks

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So as I come back into this, it appears that a number of separate topics are being mixed. The following is just a bit of how recalls and such work:


Yamaha has been working on the hard start and been focusing on the ECU. While they've been typically tight-lipped during development, we've known about their efforts for many months.


If there is a release date in February, which is only a couple of weeks away, I'll join the folks suggesting that we wait and see. No manufacturer will admit to one and prior to release, NHTSA will have an internal campaign number which will only be announced when the recall is issued. So no surprise that there is nothing on the NHTSA site currently.


When manufacturers want a mandatory change, they issue service letters or similar, which they ask NHTSA to adopt as a safety recall or by EPA as a statement of compliance failure. The manufacturer pays either way. My guess is that with the stalling, this will come as a NHTSA recall, and these are installed by dealers unless the owner specifically tells the dealer not to.


I've seen some dealers incorrectly assert that they MUST do a safety recall, even if the owner tells them not to, but the motorcycle IS still your property. Before ANY service FIRST discuss with the dealer what you do and don't want done. If you do not want the action and they still insist, see if the dealer will accept your work request in writing to cover the companies involved. (Yamaha Motors, Yam USA, and dealer) You may need to go elsewhere if they will not agree, and whether they will agree is THEIR choice.


Related issue - Many times mechanics have done unwanted recalls despite the work order saying not to. They see the bike, know a recall applies, miss the unusual customer refusal, and do the work. If the work goes into the computer, the dealer absolutely can not un-do it. (They would be creating what legally would be considered as a known unsafe vehicle.) The only thing you can do is pay somebody like AVC8130 or FlashTunes to change the flash again.



Something not mentioned so far are future actions, whether NHTSA or EPA. Even if you have the recall and pay for an aftermarket reflash, if the dealer hooks up the maintenance cable in the future, he will probably note that you have a non-compliant ECU. Once again, this is why it is SO important to talk to your dealer about what work will be done BEFORE you hand them your bike.


EPA recalls actually are mandatory, as EPA compliance is a basis of the vehicle being sold in the US. If this turns out to be an EPA action and you don't want the ECU change, it gets stickier, but the best approach is again to talk to the dealer BEFORE they have the bike.


States are all over the map (bad pun) about how EPA actions relate to their registration programs. At least two States will prevent renewal, a few more could, but most have not for cars. If you have been following the VW debacle, the Federal relation with how States make these changes is a big debate right now.


I've seen nothing relating anything about this to a vehicle fire. The ECU is about fuel-air ratio and timing which are contained within the engine and injection system. Further, of all the Teneres sold around the world in a nearly 6 year period, there has been only one fire I've heard of, the owner described holding the starter button for a minute (talk about heat!!!), and there's been no discussion of the usual suspects in vehicle fires, such as the ease of improperly reconnecting a fuel line fitting after maintenance.
 

OldRider

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I'm wondering why the op is even talking with Yamaha about this since she said Yamaha gave her a 2016 model to replace the older model that burned up.
 

EricV

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OldRider said:
I'm wondering why the op is even talking with Yamaha about this since she said Yamaha gave her a 2016 model to replace the older model that burned up.
She lives in HI, perhaps she speaks Japanese? It might explain some of the communication. Older Japanese engineers know how to speak English, but are sometimes hesitant to do so, feeling their language skills don't mirror there technical skills and don't want to appear less than they are. It's a cultural thing. They would be far more comfortable discussing an issue with a Japanese speaker, IF they wanted input from an actual owner of a US ECU bike that had experienced the hard start issue.
 

Bryce

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OldRider said:
I'm wondering why the op is even talking with Yamaha about this since she said Yamaha gave her a 2016 model to replace the older model that burned up.
Agreed.. More so, that they are communicating with others about it and their dealings with Yamaha. I would have really suspected that Yamaha and their lawyers would have had an NDA with the OP and she would gave had to keep tight lipped about any dealings with Yamaha.
 

scott123007

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EricV said:
She lives in HI, perhaps she speaks Japanese? It might explain some of the communication. Older Japanese engineers know how to speak English, but are sometimes hesitant to do so, feeling their language skills don't mirror there technical skills and don't want to appear less than they are. It's a cultural thing. They would be far more comfortable discussing an issue with a Japanese speaker, IF they wanted input from an actual owner of a US ECU bike that had experienced the hard start issue.
Yeah, well, I'd be looking for a Japanese speaker that was a little more intelligent than one that depressed her starter button so long that it caught the bike on fire! LOL
 

AVGeek

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I realize a lot of people are skeptical about whether or not this fix is coming. I think Checkswreck's explanation of how manufacturers and the NHTSA deal with recall issues gives us a better understanding of the lack of "official" information at this point. As far as the information we are receiving, we can speculate all day long about why we are receiving it, but in this case KCW is the messenger, and I have no reason to doubt her authenticity at this time. So let's keep that in mind as the discussion moves forward.
 

Checkswrecks

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Big Blu

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Checkswrecks said:
::026::

We can attack the post but not the person posting.
+ 2 well said..

Thanks for taking the time to provide very comprehensive explanation of the decision process leading to recalls.. good stuff. ::008::

Paul
 
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RonH

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I'm still having a hard time seeing the hard start cause even one fire. When the starter relay is closed what you have is full amps flowing through battery cables. So you have basically the starter itself which is enclosed and the heavy guage battery cables in the equation. Which one caused a fire to cause a recall again?I don’t believe the whole story as it couldn't happen. Sure a fire could happen, different ways to catch fire, but turning a starter motor over is not one of them.
 

Bryce

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RonH said:
I'm still having a hard time seeing the hard start cause even one fire. When the starter relay is closed what you have is full amps flowing through battery cables. So you have basically the starter itself which is enclosed and the heavy guage battery cables in the equation. Which one caused a fire to cause a recall again?I don’t believe the whole story as it couldn't happen. Sure a fire could happen, different ways to catch fire, but turning a starter motor over is not one of them.
 

OldRider

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RonH said:
I'm still having a hard time seeing the hard start cause even one fire. When the starter relay is closed what you have is full amps flowing through battery cables. So you have basically the starter itself which is enclosed and the heavy guage battery cables in the equation. Which one caused a fire to cause a recall again?I don’t believe the whole story as it couldn't happen. Sure a fire could happen, different ways to catch fire, but turning a starter motor over is not one of them.
With the relay and cables enclosed in tight quarters under the side cover, I think a fire could happen pretty quickly if the starter was held on for a solid minute. Things are going to get pretty hot.
 

Big Blu

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RonH said:
I'm still having a hard time seeing the hard start cause even one fire. When the starter relay is closed what you have is full amps flowing through battery cables. So you have basically the starter itself which is enclosed and the heavy guage battery cables in the equation. Which one caused a fire to cause a recall again?I don’t believe the whole story as it couldn't happen. Sure a fire could happen, different ways to catch fire, but turning a starter motor over is not one of them.
The fire is caused by excessive gasoline( flooding) not the starter motor. There are many possible ignition sources.......


Paul
 

Checkswrecks

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Knowing the starter was engaged for a long period, I'm not surprised to hear there was a fire. The forensic books about car fires point and the statistics like below point out that the leading two sources of vehicle fires are fuel system and electrical, with wiring taking the lead in the electrical.

In keeping the starter motor turning for a long period, it is a nearly dead short across the battery, which can result in fire at least two ways. Motorcycle battery cables are small enough in diameter to have some resistance, which increases as they get hotter. The cables coming under the rear of the tank run fairly close to the fuel tubing normally, so it wouldn't take much when the tank is up for them to come in contact with a fuel line. Add a battery cable melting through its insulation and you can get the fire.

And of course, a starter can create serious sparks when it overheats. if there is even a minor fuel leak, the starter would provide a healthy ignition source.
 

OldRider

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Big Blu said:
The fire is caused by excessive gasoline( flooding) not the starter motor. There are many possible ignition sources.......


Paul
The OP stated that she kept the starter turning for about a minute and she saw smoke coming out from under the side cover. She let off the started and the smoke got heavier and then flames came out from under the cover. I think her fire was caused by the relay and/or cables getting way too hot in an inclosed area with plenty of stuff to flame up.
 
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