Headlight Modulator debate. Modulator or no modulator.

Checkswrecks

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#41
Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

FredBGG said:
Idiots do this type of shit all the time. Happens at night too when no modulators are on.

Thank you for your subjective opinion.
Objectively, run a couple of days with your modulator off and a couple of days with it on while commuting. Same route, same times, etc.
I did and could count the change in people performing differently.
 

EricV

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#42
FredBGG said:
A car driving straight into a fire engine due to target fixation with sirens and lights flashing would make a news story in a second.
Reading comprehension is not your strong point. The car never saw the fire truck, they pulled out in front of it and the fire truck hit the car. Not "strait into", not target fixation. You clearly didn't even read all of my post, never mind understand it.

Pay attention Fred. Your life depends on it. Stop reading headlines and thinking you read the article. Stop thinking you understand what you're posting about. You don't. I have yet to see a single subject that you understand or researched enough to even understand what you're trying to claim. You continue to make multiple threads and posts attempting to justify what you believe, instead of spending the time to learn that what you believe may not actually be true.

The reason you have so many incidents and near misses is because of your actions and your poor riding habits. Most people simple notice and avoid these issues before they become issues. You clearly place yourself in position to get things on your 6 cameras just so you can berate other road users for things you feel are inappropriate.
 

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#43
You're selectively reading again. I suggested that YOU try counting for a couple of days. I ran a modulator for a season, so I compared on versus off regularly. That's not subjective.

On the pro side for modulators, I know that when headlight alerters were originally tried by the railroads, the engines with them had less grade crossing accidents. That is the stat used usually cited by the pro-modulator motorcycle people, along with a rail paper. What it misses is that choo choos don't have the majority of the traffic issues that we live with, so it's invalid.

The bottom line is that the usefulness of modulators is currently as much a debate as what type of oil is best. As NHTSA wrote in stating that the Hurt study is woefully out-dated and as part of the justification for the massive motorcycle safety project now going on, there are different types of attention getting devices which should be evaluated and which have not been. Modulators fall into that group of not yet statistically evaluated.
 

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#44
Fred-
Your mind's made up. I'm done here.
::)


All -
Keep it civil. The pruning shears are about to come out.
::024::
 

EricV

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#45
Fred - Stop trying to justify your beliefs and try and learn instead.

Your list above is telling. You clearly don't think in a linear manner. Nothing on that list means anything w/o knowing how much riding a person does and in what environment.

Stop reading part of the posts and read all of them Fred. And please, take some street riding instruction classes. I seriously doubt you ever have in the past. It might actually open your eyes just a bit.

I'm confused, you earlier claimed to have been running modulators so long that you created your own before they were legal. Now you only say "more than two years". :question:

Your subjective opinion on the fire truck response is subjective because you lack enough information about the events to have an informed opinion. There are a wide multitude of potential events that could have caused the fire truck to be the optimum responder at that time. We know none of what occurred beyond what you stated, which you probably saw on tv or read in a paper. Your statement is patently lacking in evidence for the conclusions you make.
The fire truck was obviously driving at very high speed and rolled over in the accident.
You lack any information to back up that statement. It also displays a lack of understanding of roll over accidents AND of First Responder traffic speeds and behavior. You are making an un-supported assumption based upon nothing more than your belief of what transpired, with very little information to begin with.

This is not dissimilar to the rest of the thread. Consider actually trying the experiment proposed and see what happens in your environment, on your riding path. I suspect that you can't observe the data w/o spinning it to meet your beliefs. But as I have previously stated, you place yourself in bad spots, intentionally or by default. So I'm not sure a bad rider will really be able to tell the difference between actions caused by them or just other bad driver/riders.
 

Dirt_Dad

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#46
Gee...who could have guessed a modulator discussion would not be full of agreement and harmony...? I don't think I've ever seen one on any board go without tension. This one seems very familiar to the others.

Those of us who have tried them, experienced the dangers they create first hand, want to warn others of bad experience they cause. The others who have used them, have not had bad results and feel others could benefit from them, too. I don't think I've ever seen anyone switch camps during one of these thread.

What got me to switch sides was actually using a modulator. I wanted it to work. Bought two of them and spent a considerable amount of time getting it nicely installed on my wife's little S50. A bit of a hassle, but I thought it would be worth the extra safety. 30 days later, I was firmly, permanently on the other side. Even felt guilty about selling them on eBay.

Subjective or objective opinion, this study or that...really makes no difference to me. I found that riding with a modulator proved to be the most dangerous modification I ever made to any bike...period. This thread will not be changing that opinion.
 

EricV

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#47
Nicely put Dirt_Dad. Sadly, I agree, few will change their minds. Some of those that "want them to work" can't accept what actually happens and refuse to admit to themselves that it's because of the modulator or that they would be safer w/o it. The only people I know personally that stopped using them after becoming a "believer" were two guys that I rode with. One finally got tired of me whacking him in the back of the head for being a dipshit. The other only stopped when we rode together, apparently accepting that it was really, really annoying when he followed me with the dumb thing on. I continued to whack him in the back of the head often, when ever he left it on. Povlovian training works! Sometimes just slowly.

That's another issue with modulator users. They seldom turn it off when following another vehicle. It gets really old when someone behind you is running a modulator. I know you're there a***ole, so pass or switch it off already. Especially bad on kits that use high beams. And nearly as bad with the riders that ride high beam on during the day for the same misguided reasons.
 

EricV

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#48
FredBGG said:
Some people will go on and on against modulators, because the truth is they personally find them annoying.

What however is interesting is that I while I have found several studies that indicate that headlight modulators increase safety
not one study has indicated that they make things worse.
Again, reading comprehension is important Fred. Look up those words and try to understand what they mean when put together. You can't seem to grasp the concept that it doesn't matter if people see you.

Yes, Modulators are annoying to 90% of the population that has them in their mirror. But you don't care about anyone but yourself, do you?

I have told you again and again, only you are responsible for your safety. I know you want people to see you. Guess what? By your own admission, some never will. Those are the people you need to worry about. The others that see you, will see you anyway, so you're annoying them for no reason. You can argue all you want that it helps people see you. That is moot. It makes zero difference if people see you or not. They will see you, and still turn in front of you or do other things that threaten your safety. You are responsible for seeing them and avoiding those situations in order to maintain your safety. Having it on camera when they hit you means very little from the hospital bed or morgue.

The day you learn to pay better attention to your surroundings and avoid putting yourself in poor positions, you will throw away most of the conspicuity items on the bike.

Go for a ride Fred. Try not to get killed. While I'm giving unwanted advice, don't lane split on secondary roads. And learn the difference between a bill and a law.
 

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#53
FredBGG said:
Any intelligent comments?

This is a debate thread. What is with the childish attacks?

Why are car drivers more likely to yield to a bike coming from the left or the right at 90 degrees rather than a bike approaching from the front?

This is worth discussion regardless of modulator debates.

I was trying to ignore.


Fred, you started the subjective comments about other people ("idiots out there"), how people here drive ("I imagine it has a lot to do with the way you are driving..."), and the posts above express opinions about modulators rather than as personal comments. So in answer to your first question, it looks like others here are showing some restraint.


Since you now have me here, the answer to your second question is that you are massively trying to oversimplify at least three aspects of how brains function and where I work we deal with people hitting things on a routine basis. The human factors PhD guys I work with get these kinds of comments or questions in meetings, roll their eyes and then start explaining things for the next 20 minutes in really big words. Perception/cognition/response just isn't as simple as us non-PhD types think it would be from our intuitive approach.


A really quick Google search with the words: human factors driving threat perception -connected -books
Resulted in finding Marc Green as one of the PhD types who has posted the following links:
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/seeing.html
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/rearendcollision.html


Go to the bottom of his pages and he has some links to additional posts. The real reason I am citing him here is because several times you have alleged that modulators can do no harm. I can think of car, motorcycle, and airplane accidents in which people hit what they fixated on (or fixation distracted them long enough to hit something nearby). If you look there is an analysis of motorcycle accidents which found that most riders going off the road, wide in turns, get to a point where they fixated on something at the edge of the road and the bikes left no skid marks. Mr. Green has a very brief post about "moth effect." While noting that some aspects are myth, he correctly notes that NHTSA [and I will add the MSF instructor course] warns motorcycle riders about it.
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/motheffect.html


I'm not debating or saying that modulators are good or bad here, just answering questions and adding info to consider.
 
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#54
Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

Bryn said:
Whatever you do there will be drivers out there who just do not see you and pull out into your path....Can't see the point in all this HiVis stuff.... I wore Hi Vis on my work bike before I retired from the police 3 years ago.... and still had drivers pull out in front of me , sometimes while I had blue lights flashing ::019::

So... white helmet, yellow vest with 'Police' on it, Blue Strobes, and a dayglo bike and it still happened...... Kind of answers the question
Well no, that does not state much at all. How many people avoided you because of your flashing lights and bright colors? They are all proven to help bring forth some sort of awareness, will it always work? No nothing does, even the superhuman riding/driving/awareness skills many of you seem to think you possess. ::26::
Which is why even Elite athletes perish while trying to exist among mortals.

Coming home safe at the end of each ride comes down to increasing our odds of survival. Those odds come from a multitude of factors, first and foremost our own brain and ability to make good decisions. That comes from not only good health, but proper nutrition, a good nights sleep, training and other factors I am sure all the god riders are aware of and practice constantly, or maybe they are just born with greatness, I am thinking the later, at least that is what it seems.
Next we have maintenance on our bike itself. A well maintained and properly functioning machine will help insure that those superhuman reflexes actually work when they need to.
Now we have riding aids such as ABS, TC and apparently bright colors. Do they all work themselves? No but they help increase our odds of survival, thus the point.

TO further upon your statement I was struck in a plow truck. Probably you do not have them in the UK, take a Lori, Paint it bright Orange, then put flashing lights all around. What happened? well what usually does, the other moron focusing on an accident, she drifted over and struck me. Happens, nothing I could do despite my super human martial arts reflexes I was merely a big, all be it invisible target. Despite this I realize that big orange truck and bright flashing lights also help other drivers avoid me and others on the road, even when I am doing half their speed.
Consequently I still wear bright colors, and still ride in an offensive/defensive manner.




Madhatter said:
sure, they say they don't see you. and with there eyes glued to their cell phones they probably don't. but I think its even more than that...... a callous lack of respect (selfishness , if you will) its all about me attitude.... ive got to be in front .... I drive an 40 ton truck and they pull out on me in it, I can crush 'em like a bug... but they still do it... so I have to drive to protect them from them... 40 tons, large profile, headlights on, they still pull out..... on the bike I do all I can, headlight , led light hi-viz jacket , move around a lot in lane to be more noticeable.... the bright LEDS have I think been the most effective in limiting the pull out in front of me drivers... still cant trust 'em... instructed wife to sue with out mercy that driver who gets me and says they did not see me, he will be lying... more prosecution and financial punishment of the so called blind cage drivers might make them more aware(doubt it) the American car culture runs to deep... don't have to no much to get a license, just enough to get on the road and be a danger to every one... I think most americans couldn't get a license in Europe.... it would be to hard.... so it boils down to this, we are going to die!!!! use that brain and use every strategy you can think of to increase your survivability out there, and when we die it just might be when your old and in your bed.... race won....
Grammar aside this is probably the best post of this thread, you sir, get it ::008::
 

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EricV

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#55
Shrek - I think you 'get it', but when did it become useful for you to put other road users in charge of your safety? At the end of the day, you always need to see them and take what ever actions you need to to be safe. I understand the "every bit helps" mentality. It just ignores that the other road users seeing you does not preclude them doing something dumb that puts you in danger. The OP just couldn't grasp that concept. It's a false assumption that them seeing you will help. And in regard to modulators - it does make it more difficult for on-coming vehicles to judge your distance and closing rate, which sometimes increases the potential for them to 'left turn' you.

As motorcycle riders we face hazards daily. We need to be constantly looking for threats and potential threats and to be ready to deal with them. Obviously in high traffic conditions this is more challenging. I understand the hope that modulators or bright colors will help, I simply don't see any proof that it does, but have experienced the negative effects others have brought up.
 

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#57
This thread is helping me better understand how cults work. You're fine, until you leave the cult. If you never talk about it, you might be okay, but watch out if you decide to tell others about your experience in the cult. Do that and you're said to have too high an opinion of your skills, have a god complex, and provided with ample documentation on why your personal experience is invalid.

Always interesting what you can learn by stepping back and just watching things unfold.
 

EricV

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#58
I've come to think if conspicuity as religion. You either believe, or you don't. Some will make sort of a show of it, but don't really believe. Others will wear it on their sleeve and rush over to every new person they meet to try and convert them. And some believe, and refuse to look any closer at that belief, or accept any suggestion that it may not be what it appears.
 

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#59
I do believe in the bright colors. I started really noticing highway workers when they started wearing the bright green.

Took this picture last week in Colorado, I'll give you one guess which one is me.
 

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#60
Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

Dirt_Dad said:
I'm fine with the Hi Viz stuff. It probably helps in some situations, but it keeps my wife happy if I wear it. It's best when she's happy about my riding.

I have no doubt you notice a modulated headlight approaching you from farther away than a non-modulated light. That's all well and good. If you were only riding towards other traffic it could be something to consider. My 1 month experience with a modulator show it made the vehicles in front of you unpredictable. Sometimes dangerously unpredictable. After a month I removed them from both my wife's bike and mine and made a promise to myself to never do that again. Without a doubt, the single most dangerous thing I've ever installed on any bike before or since.
S ::015::eek: does this mean you are not ON THE FENCE with modulators?
 
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