Headlight Modulator debate. Modulator or no modulator.

[OldRider]

I'm not going to turn them on with any on coming traffic, only if some asshat is blocking the road and refusing to let anyone pass. You're wrong on the modulators, when you have them flashing on high beam they can and do blind oncoming traffic. If pissing every car you meet off is the only way you feel safe on a motorcycle, then flash away. Post all the follow ups you want, I'm done.

 

[SilverBullet]

Wow now I know why this thread got moved to the debate room, Lol
Lots of personal opinion and subjectivity here only. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's opinion, kinda like Reps and Dems debating. I did search for a few minutes and came back empty on studies and reports. Nothing objective and little if any empirical evidence. DOT approving them as legal is about the best argument. Bottom line do what you feel is safe and reasonable under your particular conditions. It is your decision so be ready to accept the consequences.

I've never been blinded or irritated by oncoming modulating headlights but maybe that's just me. On the other hand retrofitted HID lights without the proper reflectors do blind me as well as overpowered add- on LED lights if not aimed properly and LEO's bright white and blue flashing LED lights at night. The later being so bad I often have to pull over and stop for a few minutes so my eyes can adjust.

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[2112]

All new cars sold in Europe have to have day running lights fitted (DRL's) by law. Some are very bright, even on a sunny day and you do find that on overcast days the can be a bit distracting. I guess if they make them for one market they'll make them for all markets to keep the unit costs down, probably.

 

[SilverBullet]

I was waffling on whether to purchase the Kisan module (mostly due to cost) but after the closet call I have had ever last night, I will spend the $130 without hesitation now.

A kid on a sportsbike pulled out fast directly in front of me. Hard braking and I got my first ever ABS activation on pavement. That and the linked brakes saved my bacon. If I was riding my V-Strom or car I would have T-boned him. I expect this from cagers but another biker was a surprise.

_

 

[EricV]

That took you a while. Believe what you want Fred. Simple truth is that when that person hits you because they "didn't see you" nothing you did will matter much. It's foolish to believe any conspicuity attempts will succeed with people that 'can't see' fire trucks with lights strobing. The simple point is that you are not perceived as a threat to them, so they ignore your presence and that most people see what they expect to see. After that, it's up to you to avoid them.

In regards to the UoI study - Schrödinger's cat.

 

[bigbob]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

As a graduate of Iowa State I must agree. Of course that was 30 years ago and I do not modulate or wear hi-vis. Guess I should put them in my will.

 

[barkingllizard]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

thanks for the post, FredBGG.....

 

[EricV]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

Read the whole study. The below quote is at the beginning and is interesting because of several points. The test subjects were all looking for motorcycles. These do not represent the road users that are most dangerous to motorcyclists. Also note the use of a simulator, rather than real world conditions. It's a very good simulator, mind you, but still a simulator and the test subjects all know that, so can ignore other distractions while they look for motorcycles.

The objective of this project was to determine the effect of headlight configuration (daytime running lights, high beam, modulating) and
rider color (bright yellow, blue denim, and black torso and helmet) on the conspicuity of a motorcycle to a driver of a passenger vehicle
in a simulated environment. To achieve this, 36 participants completed three drives on a National Advanced Driving Simulator
(NADS)-2 driving simulator.

From their own conclusions -

The analysis was conducted separately for oncoming and leading motorcycles. It must be noted
that the implications of the detection distances reported in this study are relative rather than
absolute as this study was conducted in a simulated environment.

Opps, went into the study with prior expectations... and gee, found data to support them. :

As expected, motorcycles with modulating headlights were detected at the greatest distance
(compared to motorcycles with high beam and the DRL) for both cases where the riders had
black and bright yellow rider colors.

What the study did nothing for is any determination of distance of the oncoming motorcycle and safe reactions of the drivers. "Yep, I saw the motorcycle and turned left in front of it because it was way out there" Except that it wasn't as far away as they thought. The truth is that every car driver that hit a motorcycle did see them, their subconscious mind dismissed it though, because it wasn't perceived as a threat. The conscious mind only recognized the motorcycle after the accident or immediately prior to it, when there was no more time to react to avoid the accident.

The study found what they wanted to find. It was highly subjective and extremely flawed in real world environmental areas. Can I see a modulating headlight equipped motorcycle earlier than one w/o? Sure. But I'm looking for them. It's the road users that are not looking that are the danger.

Do what you want. Just don't make the mistake of thinking it makes any difference. You are still the only thing keeping you alive and you have to see them, all the time, every time, or you will have problems. Fred's own story of nearly being rear ended is striking proof of this. Eye contact, close spacing, and directly in front of the distracted driver, (at a stop, no less), flashing brake lights, etc, none of which helped a single bit.

 

[Bryn]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

Whatever you do there will be drivers out there who just do not see you and pull out into your path....Can't see the point in all this HiVis stuff.... I wore Hi Vis on my work bike before I retired from the police 3 years ago.... and still had drivers pull out in front of me , sometimes while I had blue lights flashing ::019::

So... white helmet, yellow vest with 'Police' on it, Blue Strobes, and a dayglo bike and it still happened...... Kind of answers the question

 

[Madhatter]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

sure, they say they don't see you. and with there eyes glued to their cell phones they probably don't. but I think its even more than that...... a callous lack of respect (selfishness , if you will) its all about me attitude.... ive got to be in front .... I drive an 40 ton truck and they pull out on me in it, I can crush 'em like a bug... but they still do it... so I have to drive to protect them from them... 40 tons, large profile, headlights on, they still pull out..... on the bike I do all I can, headlight , led light hi-viz jacket , move around a lot in lane to be more noticeable.... the bright LEDS have I think been the most effective in limiting the pull out in front of me drivers... still cant trust 'em... instructed wife to sue with out mercy that driver who gets me and says they did not see me, he will be lying... more prosecution and financial punishment of the so called blind cage drivers might make them more aware(doubt it) the American car culture runs to deep... don't have to no much to get a license, just enough to get on the road and be a danger to every one... I think most americans couldn't get a license in Europe.... it would be to hard.... so it boils down to this, we are going to die!!!! use that brain and use every strategy you can think of to increase your survivability out there, and when we die it just might be when your old and in your bed.... race won....

 

[Dirt_Dad]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

I'm fine with the Hi Viz stuff. It probably helps in some situations, but it keeps my wife happy if I wear it. It's best when she's happy about my riding.

I have no doubt you notice a modulated headlight approaching you from farther away than a non-modulated light. That's all well and good. If you were only riding towards other traffic it could be something to consider. My 1 month experience with a modulator show it made the vehicles in front of you unpredictable. Sometimes dangerously unpredictable. After a month I removed them from both my wife's bike and mine and made a promise to myself to never do that again. Without a doubt, the single most dangerous thing I've ever installed on any bike before or since.

 

[viroid]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

My 1 month experience with a modulator show it made the vehicles in front of you unpredictable. Sometimes dangerously unpredictable.

That's an interesting statement, would you mind elaborating on your experiences?

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[EricV]

Can you point to the cases where a car turned left into the path of an oncoming fire truck with lights flashing?

I could probably find other documented cases, but I have personally seen this happen, with the car in front of me. First hand, direct witness of the event. Fire truck hit the car, woman got out screaming "I didn't see you!". I've seen many other incidents of similar context over the years.

The classic error of conspicuity is that it is not other road users responsibility to see you, it's your responsibility to see them. That will keep you alive. Even when they see you, they will still do dumb things that jeopardize your safety.

Many of the conspicuity methods do no harm in themselves. That is not true of the headlight modulators though. It distracts and prevents oncoming drivers from accurately judging your distance. You can prove this to yourself by attempting to judge the distance of oncoming motorcycles with and w/o modulators. Your accuracy will be significantly higher w/o excessive bright lights or flashing modulators. Imagine how poorly drivers that are not accustomed to headlight modulators will do.

We are not running old sealed beam lights any more. No high beam use into oncoming traffic is acceptable, day or night. Those are my opinions, which you are free to disagree with. But don't bother posting about your next incident in traffic, it only proves my point.

Dr. John's choices don't have any significance. That's the equivalent of saying Jim Fixx was one of the healthiest runners out there. Don't confuse attempts to be safe with safety. They are not the same.

 

[Dirt_Dad]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

That's an interesting statement, would you mind elaborating on your experiences?

Sure...

Some drivers ahead of you become very confused on why is this motorcycle flashing its lights at me. More times than not, the confused ones just pull over for you. Once they realize you're not a police officer some can get a little flash of road rage. In one incident the pickup truck I was behind moved over as the road opened from one lane into two. As I was casually passing him he decided he was not happy with me and simulated (I think) throwing something at me and shouting some (I assume) obscenity as I was approaching his driver side window. It was startling to say the least.

There was one time where I'd pulled up to a multi-lane stop light. The lady with her window down made an effort to tell me my light was very obnoxious and would I please stop doing that.

The most dangerous one was following a car for a very short time. The confused driver, who looked to be a young teenage girl, finally figured out she should stop. Problem was she decided to do it in the middle of the road about half way through a pretty sharp corner. Definitely caught me off guard to round the corner and find a car just sitting there with another car close behind me I made the decision to go around rather than be squashed. The car following me did the same. Fortunately no one was coming the other way. That was the last day I ever used a modulator.

Never again.

 

[OldRider]

Can you point to the cases where a car turned left into the path of an oncoming fire truck with lights flashing?

My wife spent 20+ years as a professional Firefighter on a 100 foot ladder truck and she could write you a book about cars "not seeing" fire trucks.

 

[EricV]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

In a large majority of cases, if you are evading a problem, you screwed up. You put yourself there in the first place, that was the error. You should be seeing problems well before you are at risk, identifying risky/poor road users and staying away from them, etc.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

Fred - One correction about NHTSA is that they do NOT endorse modulators.
What they have done is reiterate the Hurt study in that visibility reduces accidents caused when there is an "other vehicle." In separately describing ways to be conspicuous, they note the availability of modulators, which is absolutely NOT an endorsement. The bottom line is that the agency says that more study is needed with respect to modulators, and if you dig you will find that in another NHTSA report, they note that more study is needed due to potential target fixation, to see whether the modulator can draw in the "other vehicle." btw - Modulators are required equipment in most of the rail mode, so if you search on rail/highway collision data you will find more about the pros and cons.

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]We riders are the cause of more than 50% of our accidents and the old myth about the other person not seeing us and causing most accidents is simply not true. [/font]

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]What all of these conspicuity devices do is reduce our odds of accident in the minority "other vehicle" collisions. Riders simply wearing white helmets are involved less statistically than the norm. Bright colors and anything else to increase conspicuity is all to the good.[/font]


As for modulators, I'll echo Dirt Dad's experience and more, in that I tried it (mine for a summer) and found that drivers significantly did more unexpected things in front of me. Unexpected is bad - really bad. Most would get out of the way and there were less who pulled from a side street into my path, both of which were positive. But I also had them freeze in front of me at traffic lights, stray across the centerline, swerve away toward cars next to them, and most of all were the cars who would punch their brakes as I was coming from behind. Simply commuting with the thing switched on versus switched off was conspicuously different.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Merged two threads, since the new one was being used mainly to cite portions of the U of Iowa study about modulators.

 

[OldRider]

Re: Motorcycle Conspicuity Study by Iowa University

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]We riders are the cause of more than 50% of our accidents and the old myth about the other person not seeing us and causing most accidents is simply not true. [/font]

You are 100% correct here. I've been in the motorcycle 42 years and have done estimates on hundreds of wrecked bikes. I've dealt with law enforcement and insurance adjusters concerning most all wrecks. The rider is at fault at least 50% of the time, if not more. When Grandma pulls out in front of a MC doing 70 in a 45, I can't put all the blame on Grandma.

 

[Checkswrecks]

A car driving straight into a fire engine due to target fixation with sirens and lights flashing would make a news story in a second.

Sorry, you're wrong again. Fire truck, ambulance, and police accidents while responding [lights on] are SO common that it is NOT news. Combined, the following have 3,160/yr on average:

"Motor vehicle crashes are the second leading cause of death for on-duty firefighters. Firetruck crashes, occurring at a rate of approximately 30,000 crashes per year, have potentially dire consequences[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/size]... [/font]Firetruck crashes, although rare in comparison to non-emergency vehicle crashes, tend to have grave consequences for firetruck occupants and for occupants in other vehicles involved in the crash. ... [font=times new roman, stixgeneral, serif][/size]between the years of 2000 to 2009, there were approximately 31,600 crashes involving fire vehicles, 49 of which lead to the death of at least one firetruck occupant. [The big heavy fire truck seldom has the fatality and when it does, it is primarily from roll over.][/font]"[/size]
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