Have you had the hard start problem?

[autoteach]

all in the name of science.

 

[terrysig]

I'm sure it's been discussed in this thread (?) but this happened more on my FJRs than it has on the S10. I do not remember a bulletin but the WOT was the acknowledged procedure to get it to fire. And it worked.

 

[scott123007]

And that, my friends is why it is not operator error and why it will be so hard to find a cure. Operator error would happen way more often and the operator whould KNOW what they did differently to create the problem. This is an extremely intermittent glitch with no certian cause. The hardest of all to track. Unfortunately, even if a non starting bike was brought to a dealer before it was re-started, the problem has already occured and it is just a matter of re-starting the bike at this point. They still won't know why the bike flooded in the first place.

 

[Dirt_Dad]

Nice work GrahamD, but don't give up yet, you didn't try my scenario. Ride the bike all day, wait 2 hours, rinse it off, ride it 150 feet to park. Wait 3 days, turn the key on for 30 seconds then off. Repeat 6 times with 15 minutes between cycles, do not start the bike on this day. Wait 4 more days, then try to start it. Pretty sure that was how it happened the first time I experienced it.

 

[coastie]

This is an FJR problem also? What parts do our bikes have in common? And hilarious post Dirt Dad!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

 

[EricV]

And that, my friends is why it is not operator error and why it will be so hard to find a cure. Operator error would happen way more often and the operator whould KNOW what they did differently to create the problem. This is an extremely intermittent glitch with no certian cause. The hardest of all to track. Unfortunately, even if a non starting bike was brought to a dealer before it was re-started, the problem has already occured and it is just a matter of re-starting the bike at this point. They still won't know why the bike flooded in the first place.

<sigh>

First, it disproves only that GrahamD's bike starts under the conditions he presents. 20C is 68F, not particularly cold, in fact, almost ideal testing temperature. That ideal temp that all measurements are somehow taken at.

Temp may not be part of the issue, or it may be a contributing factor. What you fail to understand is that it's not a sequence of events that are typically occurring, which is why it only happens rarely.

The same conditions and sequence of events will cause a FJR to hard start. I have always believed this is a trivial issue, caused by operators that results almost entirely from starting the bike and shutting it down prior to warm up, then leaving it sit for a day or more before attempting to start it the next time you go for a ride. The most often cited scenario has been those that washed the bike, fired it up briefly to run it back into the garage, then shut it down and came back a few days later to go for a ride and it wouldn't start.

Often, this is not even recalled by the owner, as it was nothing significant and doesn't stand out in their mind. I had one fellow deny having briefly started the bike prior to the hard start, repeatedly, unequivocally, until we discussed the day he last rode the bike and he finally finished off with how nice it was to have a clean bike to ride the next time, having washed it at the end of his previous ride... after it sat over night, because he had gotten home just in time to go out with the wife to an event, thus ended up washing it the next day. Three days later it wouldn't start when he wanted to ride. He did exactly what I outlined, but refused to believe he had, until he fully went over the details. Because it was not his normal routine.

While GrahamD did a wonderful job of mimicking many things, by the time he was thru with all those multiple starts the bike may actually have been close to warmed up. I have little doubt that it will start just fine after sitting overnight. However, should he fire up the bike just once, then shut it down before full warm up, and come back in a few days...

 

[Dallara]

And that, my friends is why it is not operator error and why it will be so hard to find a cure. Operator error would happen way more often and the operator whould KNOW what they did differently to create the problem. This is an extremely intermittent glitch with no certian cause. The hardest of all to track. Unfortunately, even if a non starting bike was brought to a dealer before it was re-started, the problem has already occured and it is just a matter of re-starting the bike at this point. They still won't know why the bike flooded in the first place.

Sorry, but that just ain't the case... You need look no further than Audi and Toyota cases of "unintended acceleration" to see that. Those owners that reported that problem were *POSITIVE* that they had put their foot on the brake pedal, yet testing and onboard diagnostics proved otherwise, that instead the folks were standing on the gas pedal.

I have also seen multiple cases of "operator error" in my decades as a motorcycle and automobile dealer. In most case the operator didn't ever know what it was they were doing wrong... That is until they were shown. Even then for many the habit was so ingrained that despite having the "operator malfunction" illustrated for them they continued to do it until literally *trained* not to. Mind you, in literally every case the customer sworn up and down, sometimes vehemently, that they absolutely couldn't be doing anything wrong.

And let's go back to the "unintended acceleration" cases... In the majority of those cases the fault only happened *ONCE*. Only in very rare cases did it happen more than once, because usually the operator crashed the car when it happened that *once*.

OK, let's go down another path looking for a cure...

You guys who have had a hard-start issue - How are your throttle cables adjusted? Do you have literally *ALL* the slack pulled out of them, with very, very little to no freeplay?

Dallara




~

 

[autoteach]

We have two customers with high HP watercraft that bring them in all the time with a no start situation, usually with a dead battery. Always fouled plugs, and they are FI machines. Turns out that you cannot start one up to move it to the end of the dock or back and forth repeatedly and then expect it to start. When we start them they are always started on water feeders for cooling and are always run until full temp is reached. I am sure those customers have about had it with their machines despite that they repeatedly do what is wrong and expect it to not happen because "it has EFI, it should be smarter".

 

[GrahamD]

Nice work GrahamD, but don't give up yet, you didn't try my scenario. Ride the bike all day, wait 2 hours, rinse it off, ride it 150 feet to park. Wait 3 days, turn the key on for 30 seconds then off. Repeat 6 times with 15 minutes between cycles, do not start the bike on this day. Wait 4 more days, then try to start it. Pretty sure that was how it happened the first time I experienced it.

Which way was the wind blowing on each of those days...

I'll just put in a call to the weather bureau and order them...

For all the others that have actually had a start problem...

I suggest you all have a think about the conditions and try and replicate it yourselves.

Apart from what I did above I have flooded the bike with water previously and ridden it 100 feet and left it for 2 weeks.

Maybe the last 50 feet makes all the difference.

What you can't tell from the sped up video is that the start "characteristics" changed slightly, but it never caused much grief.

Maybe one more piston hit TDC before the start, maybe when it did fire it coughed very slightly but that is all.

So I pretty much am out of the speculation until it actually happens.

All I could do is test some of the "speculation" on my bike. On my 1 single bike even playing "Barry White" in the background didn't phase it.

 

[Dallara]

~

...On my 1 single bike even playing "Barry White" in the background didn't phase it.

OMG! Oh, the humanity... That had to be pure, unmitigated torture! ???

Don't ever let it be said that Graham won't make huge personal sacrifices in the name of Super Tenere science!!! ::008::


Dallara




~

 

[tpak]

OK, let's go down another path looking for a cure...

You guys who have had a hard-start issue - How are your throttle cables adjusted? Do you have literally *ALL* the slack pulled out of them, with very, very little to no freeplay?

Dallara

That is an interesting thought - mine have very little play - something the PO did that I kind of decided to try out and just left. It has occurred to me as part of my chasing a potential cause/cure that his could be causing an improper input to the computer/sensors. Yesterday after I posted I eventually had a few minutes to take some sensor readings for TPS and APS. Both were within spec but barely in all positions. The throttle cable idea came to me later after I was already gone so didn't have a chance to back it off and re-take the readings.

If anyone wants the instructions for taking hose readings let me know and I will type them up from the service manual - I'd scan the 2 pages but I don't want to get cross wise about copyright, etc.

In any case, I also tried a bunch of attempts to flood the darn thing to no avail - I also discovered that the fuel pump does run like the Vstrom when turning the key on with the kill switch in the run position. But it doe not run when flipping from kill to run after turning the key on - my normal procedure. Not sure if it has anything to do with all of this but I normally use the kill switch and could not figure out why I was never hearing the fuel pump. The Vstrom OTOH does run the pump when flicking the switch. I guess I was just expecting that noise. Regardless - try as I might I actually ran the pump 10 times on an almost (1 brief start) completely cold engine, let it sit for a minute and could not re-cause the hard start. Did it struggle a bit, yes but it was not the hard start we are talking about where running the starter for extended periods will not get the bike started.

I think we've generally speaking got a flooded condition in most but perhaps not all cases and some percentage of bikes that sometimes refuse to start by the usual procedures for flooded condition. I tried WOT to no avail. I may have a faulty cable adjustment, I may have a marginal TPS/APS adjustment, those sensors could be faulty, the air flow sensor (forget its correct) the crankshaft position sensor etc etc. There are a lot of sensors on this beast. YCCT is good but is not infalliable - the code is written by humans - this would be the first ever bug free system

So, next time I have a chance I will adjust the cable and see if I can get the TPS/APS more in the middle of the range than on the limits. I'll also check to see if the butterflies open as expected, etc. And I will call mama Yama this week and report it on the off chance hey start to detect a pattern in the reporting.

In the meantime the search carries on. It's intermittent and it sure as hell doesn't have me terribly worried - it WOT doesn't work quickly I will fall back to the FI fuse trick and if that doesn't work as well then I'll worry.

 

[GrahamD]

WOOOHO ::014::

I'm getting close.....

[edit] Just so both video's are in the one spot..

No 1 from previous post..
Hard_Starting - Yeah right.

No 2 where the problem rears its head..
Hard_Start_test_Success.mp4

I'll see if I can reliably repeat the issue in a couple of days... ;D

So looks like the rich mixture hangs around in the bottom of those big inlet tracts if it doesn't fire. The ECU then starts all over again thinking the ports are just air, some condenses on the sides, some condenses on the cylinder walls and the plugs.

The more times it is not started the more condensed fuel is lying around and the richer everything gets.

Half throttle pushes it towards neutral again, probably aided by an ECU that is told to lean off at that point or the idiot controlling the bike is going to send a piston through the head.

When it is hot condensation is not much of an issue..

That's the first theory.

Now if that is right, YAMAHA could probably lean off the start map and start causing Triumph style problems where they sometimes get a bit pissy because they are a bit lean to start.

The YAMAHA starts easier than BMW's in my experience. I suppose the downside is if you miss you may get into a bit of bother as the English like saying.

95RON is sitting in the tank by the way.

I'd like to thank the bike and in particular the battery for being such a good sport.

It is now being charged gently for the first time since this all started and having a good nap.

 

[Havok]

Perhaps if you defined "A lot" as a percentage of all Super Teneres sold, it would give you a better idea of the scope of this issue. We lack access to enough data to really know that answer, but I suspect it's a pretty small percentage. edit - only 40 in the poll, fully half a one time issue.

Part of the problem on this issue may simply be that 99.99% of the bikes that actually go to dealers, have no ability to reproduce the issue. In other words, the owner has a hard start and can't get the bike started. They take it to the dealer, where the dealer charges the battery, checks the diagnostics, (which show no issues), then fires the bike up and calls the owner to say it's ready for pick up. No repair was made, no parts were replaced, no data was discovered. Right or wrong, it's written up as operator error and everyone moves on.

There is no flood of bikes showing up at dealers for this problem. The dealers aren't seeing every Super Tenere come back for this issue, even if only once. Even when they do come back to the dealer, they can't find any issue to report to Yamaha that would indicate something needs to be addressed. In effect, nothing is broken, so there is nothing to fix, or at least that is how it appears to dealers, and thus to Yamaha.

As an aside, I read an interesting bit on a hard, hot starting issue for a KTM 690 today. A forum member on ADV that apparently has a great deal of EFI experience and knowledge, (current technician in the field), suggested that in the case of a 13k mile bike a few years old, the injector might be leaking, causing the flooded issue. In this particular case, it was a reproduce-able condition, the bike would hard start if the hot bike was shut down fully, but if the bike was just shut down with the kill switch, but the key left on, it would re-start immediately w/o the issue. Not the same thing we have seen with the Super Ten, but an interesting, (to me), bit of info.

The presumption was that when the ignition was cycled, and the fuel pump pressurization sequence occurred, that some fuel was leaking past the injector(s), causing the hard start. I offered this possibility on the original hard start thread some time back, but others felt that the injectors could not leak enough fuel to cause an issue. To my knowledge, no one has actually tested that theory though. The injectors shouldn't be passing any fuel unless the starting process is occurring or the bike is running. Beyond doing the below test, the conclusion was to have the injector cleaned and inspected by a shop, (for that particular bike and issue).

That made me again wonder if some injectors are leaking during the pressurization sequence, normally not causing an issue, but if cycled multiple times, (one of the known precursors for some incidents), or when the cold bike is shut down before full warm up, causing the hard start when the next start attempt is made a day or more later.

::010::
Info: 2012, 5,127 miles. No engine mods, no tuning mods.

I just had my first incident of No Start. The bike was briefly started the day before, only ran for 20 sec. Than stopped.
The following day, went to start and the ST would crank without starting, couple of "coughts". But would not start. Tried cycling the ignition.key and it seamed to make it worse. WOT appeared to do the trick., but it was still difficult to start. Did have the smell of fuel lingering around indicating an over-fuel issue.

From my past experience working with custom FI, and from reading the comment above. I would suspect the Priming function of the ECM to be at fault. The Priming function is used to eliminate any potential air bubble in the injector after a hot engine is shut down. Because heat will transfer or heat soak into the injector and allow some of the fuel to evaporate. The Prime is then used to purge the injector before the starting sequence, and if the engine was actually shut down cold. The prime would allow excess fuel to enter the engine (since there is not air bubbles from the previous short start), then when cracking, the additional fuel to start, floods the engine. Cycling the ignition key actually makes it worse as each time the prime function is activated. Contributing to the flooding! To me this sounds like the fuel cold starting parameters needs some additional tuning. ::010:: ::010::

 

[GrahamD]

Cycling the ignition key actually makes it worse as each time the prime function is activated. Contributing to the flooding! To me this sounds like the fuel cold starting parameters needs some additional tuning. ::010:: ::010::

Don't think so...


Go back a few posts and watch my first video..

 

[Dallara]

~


OK, I gotta' ask another couple of questions...

I understand why GrahamD has been doing it, as he is trying to do some testing... But aside from that, in the real world, why on Earth would anyone cycle the key on and off multiple times without actually starting the engine? What purpose does that serve? :-\

Second question... Why would anybody start their bike's engine and let it run for only 20 or 30 seconds (or less!), then shut it off? What purpose could that serve? ???

And I'm still curious what kind of throttle cable adjustment/slack/freeplay some of you guys have that have experienced a "hard start problem"... ::017::

BTW, GrahamD - Great job on all your tests and video. Thanks for sacrificing your time, effort, as well as your bike's battery and starter life in the interests of science! ::008::


Dallara




~

 

[GrahamD]

Second question... Why would anybody start their bike's engine and let it run for only 20 or 30 seconds (or less!), then shut it off? What purpose could that serve? ???

Oops forgot my Wallet.
Oops forgot to lock the shed.
Oops forgot to put the side stand up.. <---Me once. ;D

BTW, GrahamD - Great job on all your tests and video. Thanks for sacrificing your time, effort, as well as your bike's battery and starter life in the interests of science! ::008::

Thank you Dallara, but it was really to save my sanity. Too much speculation going round and round I was getting dizzy..

Wouldn't have risked it with a BMW though.

I feel pretty comfortable that the bike will take it.

A few stats.
Number of starts 35-ish.
Number of kilometers traveled . 0.01
Number of time the starter was kicked. ~ 50. Some weren't on the video.
Number of external charges in that time 0.
Age of OEM battery 2.5 years.
Km on the bike. 14070

 

[Dallara]

Oops forgot my Wallet.
Oops forgot to lock the shed.
Oops forgot to put the side stand up.. <---Me once. ;D

Thank you Dallara, but it was really to save my sanity. Too much speculation going round and round I was getting dizzy..

Wouldn't have risked it with a BMW though.

I feel pretty comfortable that the bike will take it.

A few stats.
Number of starts 35-ish.
Number of kilometers traveled . 0.01
Number of time the starter was kicked. ~ 50. Some weren't on the video.
Number of external charges in that time 0.
Age of OEM battery 2.5 years.
Km on the bike. 14070

Oh, I can understand the engine getting shut down by the sidestand switch because you forgot to flip the stand up... We've all done that at one time or another I imagine. But when that happens you don't turn the key off, shutting down the entire ECU, FI, electrical system, etc. If the sidestand thing happens I think most just reach down, flick the stand up, pull in the clutch or put it back in neutral, and thumb the starter button. You don't cycle the key switch...

When I start my bike up from cold to go ride (and lets remember that literally all "hard starting" reports have in, or just out of, the bike's home garage), I turn the key on, let the ECU, etc. go through its brief, quick self-test, wait half a tick after that and then push the starter button. Once it fires I release the button and then let the bike run at idle for at least 30 seconds to a minute before riding off, and that's in warm weather. In cold weather I give it quite a bit longer than that... Probably two to three minutes or more, depending on the temp outside. I've been around engines long enough to know you want to have all the oil circulating, up to pressure through the system, and have some temp in it before you start putting a load on things. Now once its warmed up during the day its go through the same procedure verbatim except for the warm up. If I've been riding I ride off as soon as the engine has settled to idle after starting...

If I forget my wallet, or to close the garage door, or putting in my earplugs, etc., etc. I don't shut the bike down after a cold start. Nope, I just let it idle while I go get my wallet, close the door, or pull my helmet and stuff the plugs in my ears. A minute or so of idling while I tend to my forgetfulness is a lot easier on the engine and systems of my $12,000+ motorcycle than shutting everything down, putting one more power down/power up cycle on the ECU, work that automatic decompressor another time, bang that starter motor and bump those starter gears again, pull more amps on the battery, etc.

What has shocked me a bit in this thread is not the "Oops" moments... Nope, it's the number of folks who freely admit they often start the bike up for just a few seconds and then shut it off, or cycle the key on and off multiple times without starting the bike, etc., all on purpose - not on accident. What's up with that? ???

BTW, I'll be damned if I can see where you encountered any real "hard starting problem" in your video. At least nothing like what some here claim they have experienced, needing to crank and crank for minutes on end, nearly depleting batteries then having to re-charge them, needing WOT or pulling FI fuses, etc. For almost all your starting attempts your bike started almost instantly, then wiht one start it took a few cranks and then fired right up on half-throttle. Not hard to understand after all the abuse (done only for scientific reasons, of course! ::025:: ) the engine and support systems were subjected to...

Again, Graham... Sincerely, thanks for trying to bring some sanity to this thread. I don't think there much else you could have done to try to make the bike "hard to start"... Well, short of pouring water in the gas, pulling a couple of plug leads off, stuffing a rag in the airbox, or trying to start it underwater!

Dallara




~

 

[Dirt_Dad]

why on Earth would anyone cycle the key on and off multiple times without actually starting the engine? What purpose does that serve? :-\

I did exactly that when installing new electrical gear on the bike. Probably my hyperlights. Install, check. Button up the bike, check again. Go get the wife to show her, check. Wife goes away, admire it once again, check. Cycled the key on and off several times without starting. Four days later, no start.

I still do similar things, but with the kill switch off.

 

[snakebitten]

I NEVER forget my wallet.

All my kids are adopted. I love em all. I trust just 1 of them.

 

[bikerdoc]

Dallara, to be fair not all peeps do as you do, and that is what makes us human. Some folks who experience forgetfulness or have a brain fart moment on starting the bike might be in a position where leaving the bike running is an option, BUT for others it might not be. Some examples might include where the rider/bike owner might live in a situation where shared communal living arrangements might dictate that leaving a bike running unattended is not highly desirable. Or, they might actually have the house/apartment key on the keyring with the bike ignition key and therefore need to remove said key so they can get back into their digs. Or, maybe they live up high in an apartment complex on the umpteenth floor and it may take them aeons to get from the bike to the apartment and back and leaving the bike for that long again might NOT be in their best interest... so to be fair there are so many variables... What you do Dallara during your startup procedure is maybe not shared with any other person that owns a bike... even if they might happen to have or share so many other similarities to you.

As for cycling the ignition on and off multiple times; from what I recall reading through the entire 29+ pages in the other main hard starting thread, the few that had done so and posted about it on the other thread, generally explained they had been installing this or that farkle and needed to cycle the ignition on and off while proceeding through various stages of the install for testing purposes. All pretty "normal" and self explanatory as far as I can determine... YMMV though.