HARD START

[HoebSTer]

Re: Very hard starting today

Everybody's experience is different, but I have six bikes in my garage, several built in the 70's and 80's, all fueled with E10 (which is all that is readily available where I live) and each typically sits for a continuous month or so a couple times every winter. No fuel problems. I do keep the tanks full, the batteries charged, and each gets a good long ride every month or so. YMMV.

- Mark

Mark, there is a legitimate Ethanol free gas station at the Cenex in Issaquah across the street from I-90 motorsports.

 

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

Mark, there is a legitimate Ethanol free gas station at the Cenex in Issaquah across the street from I-90 motorsports.

Yes, good place to buy pure gas, but I'm not out that way very often. When I am, I usually stop in and fill up.

- Mark

 

[HoebSTer]

Re: Very hard starting today

I use it most times in my Honda Ridgeline. I can't quite get my wife to regularly stop there yet.

 

[mbabc]

Re: Very hard starting today

I experienced this problem last Thursday. I roll my bike out of the garage and install a Madstad bracket, get done and plan to make a test run and try to fire and nothing. It would crank, but not fire. Gave up after a bit and put her back on the charger. Come Saturday, same thing but she finally fires and after blowing some whiteish smoke and running rough she smooths out and runs fine. Started up fine today. Called my dealer and he says the recall was done before I picked up the bike, so it's not an o-ring problem. Riding to work tomorrow, so hope this isn't chronic!

 

[Cerenkov]

Re: Very hard starting today

S10s are drive-by-wire, right? If WOT is helping the bike start (which is more of a carburetor thing, EFI doesn't care so much) it could be related to the sensors or how the YCCT is reacting at start up.

I'm not entirely familiar with the Yamaha EFI system, but it may be an adaptive EFI system (like the PowerCommander) and it may be worth it to try and reset this, usually with disconnecting the battery over night.

Just some rambling insomnia-related thoughts ::008::

 

[colorider]

Re: Very hard starting today

S10s are drive-by-wire, right? If WOT is helping the bike start (which is more of a carburetor thing, EFI doesn't care so much) it could be related to the sensors or how the YCCT is reacting at start up.

I'm not entirely familiar with the Yamaha EFI system, but it may be an adaptive EFI system (like the PowerCommander) and it may be worth it to try and reset this, usually with disconnecting the battery over night.

Just some rambling insomnia-related thoughts ::008::

Yeah, WOT was always a Carb thing "way back when" for clearing a flooded engine, but it does seem to work on EFI engines as well - sometimes.

So far, knock on wood, I have not had a starting issue on my SuperT, nor did I ever have one on my previous FJR.

::022::

 

[Krabill]

Re: Very hard starting today

I went for a nice long ride on Saturday. Got the bike a little muddy, so I washed it yesterday. Concerned that both the previous washes left me with a non-starting bike the next morning I fired it up when I was done and rode for about 10 miles down the highway to make sure it was completely dry before I parked it for the night. Started just fine this morning ::012::

 

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

S10s are drive-by-wire, right? If WOT is helping the bike start (which is more of a carburetor thing, EFI doesn't care so much) it could be related to the sensors or how the YCCT is reacting at start up.

The principles of treating a flooded engine are the same for both carb and EFI systems, as is the procedure to address the problem. When an engine floods, it has so much excess fuel in the inlet tract that the A/F ratio is above the combustible limit. By opening the throttle all the way, you suck large amounts of air through the system which hopefully flushes out enough of the excess fuel so you bring the A/F ratio back to something that will fire.

Why the bike is occasionally flooding during a normal start when you're doing everything right is the pregnant question. My instinct says that there is some software or sensor glitch that under the right set of conditions momentarily puts the system in a mode where it overfuels dramatically - for example, perhaps under certain conditions the OAT sensor is "off scale" to the ECU. When this happens, it may go into some kind of fail-safe mode which is actually causing the problem - sometimes the testing of these systems misses certain combinations of conditions. Or this may just be my prejudice to think this is software-related - I worked too long in software including a brief stint doing embedded systems on vehicles.

The fly-by-wire aspect also had me wondering if maybe the whole problem might simply be that under some conditions the bike, for some reason - maybe failure to properly initialize the TB servos - the bike doesn't advance the throttle plates to the right setting for starting. My symptoms were that the bike would initially fire, but wouldn't keep running. Next time, I think I'll try some tricks where I move the throttle through its entire range of a few times but crank again with it at the idle stop.

I used to own a R1100S that fuel flawlessly except once very 10K miles or so the entire system would hiccup, the bike would lose all power for a 1/2 second and then come back to life. I think something was causing a momentary software reset of the entire system. About half the R1100S owners on a forum for the marque had the exact same problem and for most of us, it would cause the transmission to hit a false neutral between 5th and 6th. Weird stuff happens with these systems.

- Mark

 

[EricV]

Re: Very hard starting today

Why the bike is occasionally flooding during a normal start when you're doing everything right is the pregnant question. My instinct says that there is some software or sensor glitch that under the right set of conditions momentarily puts the system in a mode where it overfuels dramatically - for example, perhaps under certain conditions the OAT sensor is "off scale" to the ECU. When this happens, it may go into some kind of fail-safe mode which is actually causing the problem - sometimes the testing of these systems misses certain combinations of conditions. Or this may just be my prejudice to think this is software-related - I worked too long in software including a brief stint doing embedded systems on vehicles.

At this point, anything is possible. I have not had this problem on the S10 so far, but have had it a few times on the FJR. Often enough to know that on the FJR, I'm causing it by not allowing a full warm up before shutting it off.

There is a second cause that I have seen repeatable on the FJR, and that is key on, key off repeats with the kill switch in the on position. Mark may be on to something with the software idea, but those multiple key on/key off events, along with multiple fuel pump pressurization events, does seem to cause an over rich condition and hard starting on the FJR. It would seem that we have also seen that on the S10.

Minor data points from me - I left the S10 in the garage for 4 weeks while I was on vacation. No battery tender, a sub-std battery with 190 CCAs installed, (The oem one died and I had to use what I could find while I waited for the warranty process to occur), and a 58F garage, give or take. The bike fired right up w/o issues. Last night I was in Jean, NV and parked the bike outside. This morning it was 25F and the bike fired right up w/o issues.

I always use the kill switch. I always let the gauges do their full sweep, then turn the kill switch to on and wait for the fuel pump to do it's thing, then hit the start button. I never fire the bike up and shut it off w/o letting it fully warm up. I've never washed the bike.

FWIW, I had the right side upper fairing panel off the other day and noticed that there is a major wiring harness connector group that has a rubber cup like cover over the connectors.... but it is open to the uphill & forward side, instead of the opposite. It would appear to be backwards, to my thinking, allowing water to get into the connectors, instead of helping to avoid that. It does have a drain hole at the 'bottom', but I may pull those connectors apart, hit it all with some dielectric grease and re-install the boot in the other direction. If for no other reason, to make myself feel better.

 

[Epping]

Re: Very hard starting today

Well it happened to me today, but I think I know why this is happening. First a run through what I did.
Installed the front Yamaha LED indicators. Because I removed the headlight assembly and disconnected at the connector, I wanted to make sure everything worked before I buttoned it up. So turned on the ignition. No headlight. Checked everything, then checked with the engine running. Doh! headlight works. Only ran the motor for a second or so. Put it all back together and put it to bed. Two days later, this morning, it would crank but not start.
I remembered a post on the Bimmer Forum (car) about the 840 BMW failing to start after just this scenario of a short motor run. When the motor starts initially, a very fuel rich mixture is injected which washes the oil from the cylinders. The result is a lack of compression and a refusal to start. The solution was to inject some oil into the spark plug holes.
Anyway, armed with this insight, I noticed the motor was spinning very easily. I opened the throttle fully and after about 5 minutes with a few attempts and a few rests to allow the battery to recover, it very slowly started to fire with the throttle fully open. It certainly sounded like a lack of compression until, finally I released the starter, and revs slowly increased and finally settled into normal idle.
Sorry this is so long winded, and I'm sure by now a lot of people are shaking their head saying "no way". Anyway, I offer this experience for what it's worth, and if avoiding the very brief engine run can prevent someone being stranded, it is worth it.

 

[GrahamD]

Re: Very hard starting today

No worries about the detail Epping, It's all appreciated. ::008::

 

[dcstrom]

Re: Very hard starting today

Interesting - lack of compression from oil being washed off the cylinder walls is something I never thought about. It seems though that would be a very temporary condition... in my own case, the bike wouldn't start after sitting for 2 weeks, there was no "short run" that would leave it with over-rich condition. I ran through 3 full battery recharges before it finally ran - after a bunch of white smoke it settled down to a normal idle and hasn't had the problem since.

I don't mind so much that it does this - after all it's very infrequent, once in 8000 miles in my case. BUT what I really would like to know is a reliable way to get it going again. If I'm in the middle of nowhere, with no way to recharge the battery, I want it running again pretty quickly. I guess I'm going to try pulling the FI fuse if/when it does it again.

Trevor

 

[jajpko]

Re: Very hard starting today

I'm thinking this can be induced easily..and being the inquisitive geek sort I might be doing that soon...once I work my way out of the pile of homework Ive created

I have tried to induce this with no avail. I have not tried the power wash on the engine, but have done the rest of the bike.
I wonder if this is not bike related. IE, twist of the throttle, ect.
Just wondering.. Maybe a different start AFR. There are so many variables to consider.. If not, all bike would be hard starting..

 

[Kevhunts]

Re: Very hard starting today

The solution is simple. Someone needs to pull the spark plugs and see if they are wet or dry when this problem occurs.
It's either a case of no spark or no fuel. Somebody has to do the dirty work to solve this issue once and for all.

 

[Kevhunts]

Re: Re: Very hard starting today

Why is that a 'solution?'

I suppose I should have said, "The first step to a solution is..."
I'm sorry you needed help with that.

Hey I hear they need a "spell checker" over on ADVrider. ::025::

 

[fender5803]

Re: Very hard starting today

I am confused but glad we are not trying to spell panacea insteed of solution.
Did I miss(spell) something-? I may have ...
I love this forum, thank you Venture for putting up with us all.
-dt
::022::

 

[Firefight911]

Re: Very hard starting today

I am confused but glad we are not trying to spell panacea insteed of solution.
Did I miss(spell) something-? I may have ...
I love this forum, thank you Venture for putting up with us all.
-dt
::022::

Pssst, you misspelled instead. ::025:: ::025:: ::025:: ::025::

 

[fender5803]

Re: Very hard starting today

Pssst, you misspelled instead. ::025:: ::025:: ::025:: ::025::

Yes I did spell that incorrectly, good eyes firefighter, I thought about putting that "sic" thing but have never been exactly sure just how it works and when to use it ... would it have been the right thing in this case-? I figured it would be a known given, sorry about that firephighter.
I do admit I miss a spell checker wereever I go .... because without one I'd be lost, am lost, is lost.
best,
-dt

::022::

Now - back to the hard starting topic, my appollogees to all.

 

[Turk]

Re: Very hard starting today

The solution is simple. Someone needs to pull the spark plugs and see if they are wet or dry when this problem occurs.
It's either a case of no spark or no fuel. Somebody has to do the dirty work to solve this issue once and for all.

Well, my bike did not start after a month of sitting in the garage..charged the battery still did not start. I took it to mechanic..they replace the spark plugs and it worked. I guess I fluded the engine trying to start... My spark plugs were new I had just replaced them couple of months ago, I did not undertand why didn't they just clean them and put them back in...every one wants to make a quick buck...

 

[Epping]

Re: Very hard starting today

If my theory is correct. I suspect they put a drop of oil down the spark plug holes. ::013:: So did they charge you for 4 plugs?