HARD START

[snakebitten]

Re: HARD TO START

Hello tomatocity...thanks for the thoughtful reply.

<snip>

...I think I inadvertently slipped off the starter button and stopped cranking before it started and then began cranking again.

I do get a lot, lot of clacking when the bike is first started and assumed that is the timing chain tensioner. <snip>

I hate it when that happens! My first hard start was a result of this. I inadvertently let off the starter before she fired up. It was a brutal lesson.
I actually did it AGAIN a few months later. Exactly the same result.
The next (only other time) time I did it I was ready mentally and went immediately to WOT. Still took a few nervous seconds, but she lit!

Mine is a 2012. She never has given me a start problem if I deliberately avoid more than one start attempt when she is cold.

The only other hard start I had was not letting her warm up before turning her back off when cold starting.

To me, it's her one "quirk" that I don't tempt her with. Considering all the AMAZING moments I've enjoyed around the world while perched on her saddle, I'll not complain.

As for your cold start clacking.......
Yep, that's the notorious gen1 cct taking its time oiling-up, pressure wise. A bit unnerving, I'll admit. But a simple remedy exists.

I ordered the gen2 cct, but before installing it I decided to go old-school and switched to manual.
Reminds me now of the bikes I grew up on. I just worry less with it. Although admittedly, I'm not a worrier by nature. And the Super Tenere isn't a source for much worry anyways.

 

[HeliMark]

Re: HARD TO START

To your question about the roads... We bumped into a Highway Patrolman at a gas station and he said we could not get to the higher elevations as snow was present. I rode in from the Inyokern side up 178. Fantastic road. We camped at Pioneer Point off 155. It was okay, not well kept. But, we basically had the place to ourselves. Went into Kernville one night for dinner. We went into Bodfish and up and out of there on 483 all the way to Caliente and back. Came across a small road on the way back that said "Road Closed." What to do, what to do? Anyhow, I don't know the name of the closed road but it looked great on the map. I am not familiar with the whole area as it was my first visit and I was just following my buddy who planned the trip.

Anyhow, We rode out of there West bound on the 178 and cut through the ag lands until we got to the base of the Grapevine. Overall a great 3 day weekend.

Little off topic, I rode that area last weekend. The road that is closed is Caliente Creek Rd. I rode it after talking to several residents. One water crossing the road, which had a truck over the side. Definitely the truck drivers fault, and I had no problem crossing it with the bike. 4-5 dirt sections where the road is gone. 100x better than was before according to residents. Road is closed to keep people away, and no one seemed to have a problem with me (lots of friendly waving, and stopping to talk to some working by the road). All the higher roads are closed due to the snow and road damage.

Mark

 

[Tenman]

Re: HARD TO START

My 2013 has 40k miles. I've had 2 cold hard starts when it was pretty new and one hot hard start about 6 months ago. The cold starts were probably from letting off the starter too soon. The hot one has still got me puzzeled. I was riding and it started to drizzle. I pulled over to put on my rain suit and it didn't want to start. Let it sit about twenty minutes. Tried it with wot. Still no go. Let it sit another few minutes and decided to grind till it was dead or startin. It fired up after bout 20 seconds of grindin. Mine weren't nearly as bad as some of the ones I've seen on here tho. Never had to jump it off. I've got my stock 4 year old battery and it is still going strong so far.

 

[rrnunes2002]

+1 for the hard start here.

Not sure the root cause. Early in November I did change the oil before storing for the winter and let it warm/move the oil for a minute before shutdown. And now that I was turning it on for the first time this year, I think I release the start button just as it was starting.
Either way, she did not want to start anymore. Tried the WOT and 3/4, than waited a little while and removed the fuse, tried again and plugged the fuse back. She coughed a couple of times and finally started.
Now she runs as if nothing ever happened. Not sure which of the procedures did the trick, since I guess I tried them all.

(I was going to pull Checkswrecks leg and not say the year, but here is goes. 2015 )

 

[Checkswrecks]

It's not good to tease a moderator.

 

[Checkswrecks]

I was talking to a Customer Service Supervisor at Yamaha HQ a couple of weeks ago to see if I could schmooze anything for the Romney charity Camp-N-Ride event, and brought up hard starting. (they are already sending the demo truck which costs a LOT and the guy I needed to talk to was out)


The supervisor's response was that she is responsible for all models and was not aware of this one issue in this model. She does know her product lines and asked if the 2014 change in model had changed the problem. Going by what we have in the forum and this thread my response was that the second generation bikes are not nearly as affected, but I was quick to guide her and her assistant to this 49 page thread to show that we still have an issue with Gen1 bikes.


While nearly all of the Gen1 bikes are out of warranty, they will consider any with a continuing problem on a case by case basis if you can show this has been a continuing problem with your Gen1 bike. They are not shutting the door even if out of warranty.


What that means is that you need to take your bike to your local dealer and have him talk to his regional service manager. Bear in mind that these bikes are up to 5 years old and by now may have a lot of miles, maintenance, and possibly other history which could justifiably lead them to turn you down. For example, they will know immediately if you had the ECU flashed, and I'd not bother asking if you did. Same if you are a newer owner with a Gen1 bike and can't show this has been an ongoing problem with that one bike, or if you know you are overdue for a major tune-up.


If this works for you, good luck.

 

[markjenn]

What that means is that you need to take your bike to your local dealer and have him talk to his regional service manager. Bear in mind that these bikes are up to 5 years old and by now may have a lot of miles, maintenance, and possibly other history which could justifiably lead them to turn you down. For example, they will know immediately if you had the ECU flashed, and I'd not bother asking if you did. Same if you are a newer owner with a Gen1 bike and can't show this has been an ongoing problem with that one bike, or if you know you are overdue for a major tune-up.

Sorry, but I really don't see much value in Yamaha's case-by-case offer of assistance. After an episode, one can generally get the bike running (often with a jump and a lot of cranking) if you know the WOT process, but afterwards there are no remaining symptoms and the problem probably won't occur again for months or even years. And no dealer can offer much assistance for a problem that can't be reliably reproduced. And you really don't want them doing random things guessing at what it might be as they'll likely do more harm than good.

This is just Yamaha doing their usual customer service posturing. This problem is a case where a knowledgable owner is the solution, not the dealer.

- Mark

 

[WJBertrand]

For example, they will know immediately if you had the ECU flashed, and I'd not bother asking if you did.

How would they know this immediately? In my experience the local dealers don't know much about the Super Tenere. They aren't a high volume seller and they hardly ever need to be repaired, so the dealers don't seem to get very familiar with them.

 

[Brick]

I was at the Yamaha demo at Daytona bike week so his year. I was taking a test ride on a FZ-06... I already have a 2014 Tenere'ES and a 2015 FJ-09. The guy next to me we test riding the Tenere. He did the whimpy attempt to start the Tenere then it wouldn't start. As it cranked one of the demo team came over and explained the full throttle start and of course the Tenere started right up.

BTW... also there was the Tenere rider who is riding for MS. I was talking to him and asked him about the covers over hand guards grips and all. They just Velcro on. He told me he gets ashes a lot about them as they only cost.. I think he said $20. I just knew I would remember the brand... but NO it's gone out of my memory. Help... anyone know?


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[Checkswrecks]

Mark, not only was she sincere, I've personally seen Yamaha do a lot of expensive work and you have too. When you and I were on FJRs, Yamaha paid dealers to rebuild a lot of engine heads long after warranty. Yamaha did not effectively fix the hard start when the Gen1 bikes were being sold, and I have no problem calling them out on that part. At the same time we are discussing a product that they haven't built for about 4 years. I've personally been with friends and their Harley and BMW issues that were denied, even for long-standing known problems when only marginally going out of warranty. In this case, yes, the owners figured out how to adapt to the bike, but she was not "posturing."

WJB, as soon as they hook up a diagnostic harness, the ECU shows it's revision level and I believe the date. That's why I wrote they would know.


Brick - While that's interesting about the start, the same "cure" we found applies to most fuel injected engines. There's some comments about that early in this thread I believe. The guy riding to raise money for MS is LongHaulPaul and you can ask him directly then let us all know, as his web-site is http://www.longhaulpaul.com

 

[WJBertrand]

Does a reflash change the official revision level?


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[Checkswrecks]

Does a reflash change the official revision level?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To really get the best answer, pm and ask AVC8130.

 

[BadNews]

BTW... also there was the Tenere rider who is riding for MS. I was talking to him and asked him about the covers over hand guards grips and all. They just Velcro on. He told me he gets ashes a lot about them as they only cost.. I think he said $20. I just knew I would remember the brand... but NO it's gone out of my memory. Help... anyone know?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure what mitts Paul is using, but I've got these on my ST:

http://www.obradvgear.com/index.php/products/enduro-grip-mitt

They have 1 velcro strap inside and 2 snap straps on the outside. All knobs/switches/controls readily visible/accessible and they provide good protection from the elements.

 

[whizzerwheel]

I was talking to a Customer Service Supervisor at Yamaha HQ a couple of weeks ago to see if I could schmooze anything for the Romney charity Camp-N-Ride event, and brought up hard starting. (they are already sending the demo truck which costs a LOT and the guy I needed to talk to was out)


The supervisor's response was that she is responsible for all models and was not aware of this one issue in this model. She does know her product lines and asked if the 2014 change in model had changed the problem. Going by what we have in the forum and this thread my response was that the second generation bikes are not nearly as affected, but I was quick to guide her and her assistant to this 49 page thread to show that we still have an issue with Gen1 bikes.


While nearly all of the Gen1 bikes are out of warranty, they will consider any with a continuing problem on a case by case basis if you can show this has been a continuing problem with your Gen1 bike. They are not shutting the door even if out of warranty.


What that means is that you need to take your bike to your local dealer and have him talk to his regional service manager. Bear in mind that these bikes are up to 5 years old and by now may have a lot of miles, maintenance, and possibly other history which could justifiably lead them to turn you down. For example, they will know immediately if you had the ECU flashed, and I'd not bother asking if you did. Same if you are a newer owner with a Gen1 bike and can't show this has been an ongoing problem with that one bike, or if you know you are overdue for a major tune-up.


If this works for you, good luck.

Thanks for pursuing this Checkswrecks because there really is a hard start problem here. I'm not sure how to proceed with it though. I've experienced the problem twice and the first time took it to the dealer expecting it to be a warranty issue, but received a $250 bill for their services. The second time I dealt with it myself by jumping it off a car battery for a full 45 seconds. I'm not sure what good it will do to relate this to the local dealer because it's such an intermittent issue. You've got the ear of the important people that could make this happen but unless they take the initiative to investigate the problem, nothing will happen. If you look at other bike threads, you generally don't see a hard start thread with this much content. That sort of speaks for itself.

 

[markjenn]

Mark, not only was she sincere, I've personally seen Yamaha do a lot of expensive work and you have too. When you and I were on FJRs, Yamaha paid dealers to rebuild a lot of engine heads long after warranty. Yamaha did not effectively fix the hard start when the Gen1 bikes were being sold, and I have no problem calling them out on that part. At the same time we are discussing a product that they haven't built for about 4 years. I've personally been with friends and their Harley and BMW issues that were denied, even for long-standing known problems when only marginally going out of warranty. In this case, yes, the owners figured out how to adapt to the bike, but she was not "posturing."

I don't doubt she is sincere and we can argue about whether it is "posturing" or not, but the fact remains that her offer is of essentially no practical value. I don't expect Yamaha to proactively fix the problem on four-year old bikes either, but saying they'll fix things on a case-by-base basis is no value when the problem is not reproducible and has no fix. This is a totally different situation from the FJR where the problem was easily verifiable (excessive valve guide wear) and had a defined and straightforward fix (replace valve guides, valves, and fit re-designed seals).


- Mark

 

[Checkswrecks]

I don't doubt she is sincere and we can argue about whether it is "posturing" or not, but the fact remains that her offer is of essentially no practical value. I don't expect Yamaha to proactively fix the problem on four-year old bikes either, but saying they'll fix things on a case-by-base basis is no value when the problem is not reproducible and has no fix. This is a totally different situation from the FJR where the problem was easily verifiable (excessive valve guide wear) and had a defined and straightforward fix (replace valve guides, valves, and fit re-designed seals).

- Mark

OK, so now I feel that I'm missing something. With what I underlined above, what is it that you expect Yamaha to do?

 

[snakebitten]

I am not defending or ridiculing Yamaha on the "Hard Start" issue when I say that I don't think they can\will fix it.

Nor do I think that it is because they "don't care".
And the last thing I would say will likely draw even more ire, but there IS (are) a solution(s), albeit not one that is appealing.
It comes across as an accusation that it is the owners fault. But I am NOT saying it that way. I have had 3 Hard Starts in 6 years.
And for me, NONE of them preceded the discussion about it on this forum. So I had both the method for overcoming the Hard Start, and a few methods to avoid it as well.

I am betting it isn't going to get any better than that. And to be honest, I'm ok with that. It doesn't influence my willingness to ride, or to worry.

 

[limey]

Big thanks to Snake and all the input from you guys. 2012 110,000km I think this is my first hard start tried with the car booster with no luck and did what Snake said with it hooked up to the truck and sure enough it fired up after 30 seconds or so. ::008::

 

[markjenn]

OK, so now I feel that I'm missing something. With what I underlined above, what is it that you expect Yamaha to do?

They should have put a team on it back when the problem became widely known in 2012, found out why bikes are randomly flooding during a normal cold start, and issued a recall that fixed the problem (probably requiring an ECU flash and emissions recertification). But there was no safety angle and the cost per bike on a low-production single-platform bike would have been astronomical so Yamaha stonewalled.

I have no expectation they'll do anything at this point - the problem has no safety angle, there is a reasonable workaround, and hasn't been widespread enough to garner any bad press. Their pledge to work with owners on the problem now on a case-by-case basis is cheap and sounds good, but it has no value to customers.

- Mark

 

[snakebitten]

Excellent post Markjenn.

And I'm inclined to agree.