HARD START

[motodude]

Re: Very hard starting today

OK I'm on the list too now.

I first had this problem earlier this year. Bike wouldn't start, cranked forever, nothing. I assumed the battery was shot and had it trailered to my dealer ($60 for four miles!!) and had them install a Shorai battery instead of the stocker, since I have one in my Buell and love it. So far so good until I took a three week vacation. When I tried to start it after returning, same issue. Crankcrankcrankcrank, nada. SHIT!!! Again. The battery was still at full charge too! I sprayed some starter fluid under the tank and it fired up right away, albeit puking out some white smoke.
I have always felt from day one that this bike cranked over rather slowly. I understand that two 600cc cylinders aren't easy to turn over, but come on.
This is disturbing. Helloi, Yamaha? Are you reading this??

 

[coastie]

Re: Very hard starting today

Is this happening on Bikes that have had the ECU Flash or are using the clutch mod? Or has anybody who has not been able to get theirs started try throwing a fuze into the clutch to see if it fires?

On the stalling issues I know mine stalled a lot when new but never had a hard start problem, but when I threw the fuze in for the clutch mod, not even one hiccup in 5k miles. I took out the clutch mod last week and rode to work. I had two stalls in 20 miles and none on the way back from work when It was about 25 degrees warmer.

 

[tomatocity]

Re: Very hard starting today

Is this happening on Bikes that have had the ECU Flash or are using the clutch mod? Or has anybody who has not been able to get theirs started try throwing a fuze into the clutch to see if it fires?

On the stalling issues I know mine stalled a lot when new but never had a hard start problem, but when I threw the fuze in for the clutch mod, not even one hiccup in 5k miles. I took out the clutch mod last week and rode to work. I had two stalls in 20 miles and none on the way back from work when It was about 25 degrees warmer.

::026::

 

[roy]

Re: Very hard starting today

Well it happened this morning. Went to crank it and it popped and would not fire. Went wot no fire just wouldn't hit. Starter got hot I quit. Cussed a little and remembered some talk of pulling a fuse. Text a friend who has one he said yes its a fuse but I don't recall which one. Then it hit me fuel pump. Took the two panels off got at fuse box and since I'm at home at the owners manual pulked the fuse. Bike fired then died of course did that a few times then reinstalled fuse. Pos fired then. Damn what joke. I know what caused it. Last Sunday I did some lense swapping on my D2 auxiliary lights and had the ignition on no on off switch on. Bike was hot. Made no difference I should have cranked it. Instead it sit for a week and no cranking is the result. Piss poor design IMO and btw BOTH my Suzukis cranked fine today and have been sitting for a which especially the GSXR. Yamaha got issues!! No cranking, spokes falling out headlights melting jeezus when does it end!! :'(

 

[GrahamD]

Re: Very hard starting today

Instead it sit for a week and no cranking is the result. Piss poor design IMO and btw BOTH my Suzukis cranked fine today and have been sitting for a which especially the GSXR. Yamaha got issues!! No cranking, spokes falling out headlights melting jeezus when does it end!! :'(

Yes you can add up all the faults and apply them universally to all bikes. However, many have not had any of that happen. I would love to see that Hard start issue solved myself, but frankly I am having a hard time getting it to do it. All I can manage so far is a hesitant start.

So far no melting connectors or loose spokes.

 

[TWOTIME]

Re: Very hard starting today

::026:: ::021::

 

[Combo]

Re: Very hard starting today

No hard starting in over 15 months although the starter seemed to be weak to me by the way it sounds but always starts. I do not cycle the key without the kill switch off when working on and testing the electrical add-ons after seeing the first posts about this.

I ground down the headlight insulators to the connectors and no more hot connections. Looks like the supplier for the Yamaha headlight harness on the newer models has made the insulator even with the connectors now.

Check my spokes from time to time and to date I have never had one come loose.

Mine is a keeper. No complaints except I always need more ride time.

 

[jaeger22]

Re: Very hard starting today

Well add me to the list. 2 1/2 months and 3,300 miles and it happened for the first time yesterday morning. Cleared after 2 or 3 minutes of cranking WFO.
I have been trying to get it to repeat so I can trouble shoot the problem but now I can not make it do it again.
Also, just an FYI, I recently converted my DR-650 to EFI using Ebay sourced parts from other bikes and a Microsqurit ECU. I had to wire all the sensors, work out a throttle body, fuel pump, and fuel rail system as well as set up the software and develop and tune the maps. I had a blast building it and along the way I learned a little about EFI and may be able to supply some insight (but no clear answers to this specific problem. )
First the fuel pump running when the key is turned on is not likely related in any way to the issue. The fuel rail stays pressurized for a LONG time and the short run at turn on is a "just in case it has been a long time" thing. Unless the injectors are bad (unlikely) it makes absolutely no difference how long or how often it runs. What is more likely related is a priming pulse. On the system I build the ECU does two things when first turned, run the fuel pump for a few seconds and then turn it off until the engine is running, and it hits the injectors with a priming pulse to clear out any air in the system. Assuming the S10 does the same thing, turning the key on and off several times could cause a flooded condition. I know it will on my DIY EFI DR but I just did a test on the S10 and could not make it it flood even after turning the switch on and off 10 times before starting. It may still happen at some temperatures or other conditions. The amount of fuel injected during cranking is very large (super rich) and is controlled by a table of values addressed by temperature. It is possible that some parts of the table are too rich. I can tell you from experience that this a difficult table to tune.
Also as to the wide open throttle while starting, as others have noticed, with the fly by wire, twisting the grip just turns a pot, sending a variable voltage to the ECU. It is not directly connected to the butterflies. Yet WOT seems to help starting when flooded just like with a carb. Why? Well in the microsquirt ECU, the software detects wide open throttle and cranking as a "flood clear mode" and cuts fuel . I can only assume the Yamaha engineers are at least as smart. If so, they could open the butterflies and/or cut fuel to help dry out the engine.
At least that is what seems to be going on. Worked for me.
It also seems like there is a strong correlation between starting for a short time and then having problems on the next start. Even after several days. If this turns out to be correct (and it sure sounds like it will) I am thinking some kind of bug in the code. If that is the case, about all we can do is hope Yamaha comes up with a fix and look for a work around.
John

 

[snakebitten]

Very hard starting today

Excellent post!
And, you have cred with me for being determined enough to do your own efi conversion.

Me? It's easier to buy a new bike.

Crazy.

By the way, mine is now about 15 month old. About 20,000 miles. And yet to have the hard start. But, I have purposely avoided all the theoretical causes.

Thanks for your insight.

 

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

Yes, great post. Good info.

I agree with your hypothesis that is is some minor software bug that only bites in specific conditions which are randomly and rarely aligned - the idea that perhaps they have a bad value or two in the temp lookup table for cold starting enrichment sounds like something that could cause this. Perhaps they use both engine/coolant temperature and ambient temperature in some kind of algorithm and an interrupted start increases the likelihood of the bug biting.

I wish Yamaha would fix this, but honestly, I think they're so nailed by cost cutting and profit problems right now, the last thing they have resources for is fixing a minor intermittent FI software bug in a system that will probably be replaced wholesale in a year or two.

- Mark

 

[GrahamD]

Re: Very hard starting today

Microsqurit ECU..... priming pulse. ... It may still happen at some temperatures or other conditions. ....
..."flood clear mode" .... strong correlation between starting for a short time and then having problems on the next start. ...some kind of bug in the code. If that is the case, .
John

That was the next thing I was going to do after the Battery voltage vid I did. (I have been reading the Microsquirt info for a while off and on) and was going to look at the injector inputs at start up.

Thanks for all the info.

I have had a hesitant start (more than three compression strokes, maybe 6) twice, at about 25 Deg C ambient with the bike sitting for 5 hours at a car park. (Forgot to kick up the side stand - twice : ) both within a minute of each other.

It is always useful to know what temp things are at when this happens, but that takes a bit too much geekness for normal life. It does give you an idea what it is like for the engineers. Hopefully some of them actually ride an S10 and have had the problem.

I am also wondering whether it has something to do with different emission settings playing a role.

I have played with the on off thing before and nothing really happened so I am going to do it again after a possible ride tomorrow. Riding always comes first for some reason. ;D

Bear in mind I am playing with a first gen OZ spec bike, so there are probably differences.

That's after I solve the special Xbox upnp protocol on the RPi shares for my Son of course. :

 

[viewdvb]

Re: Very hard starting today

I've had this symptom on 2 cars and 3 bikes. It was always after the engine had momentarily been stopped and started from cold but never warmed up then switched off and left till the next start which was a problem. I have never experienced it with just switching on and off without running. The answer was always the same. Find the wire or fuse for the fuel pump and unplug it, crank the motor to clear the obviously rich mixture. Some like the S10 will fire up from the fuel already swilling around in the pots. Proof that there is an excess of fuel if the engine can start without any injected. On some the fuse may cut the ignition so no fire up. The old carb technique of wide open throttles and a quick spin over should suffice to clear the raw fuel. You can often smell it, if proof were needed. Re-connect the pump and away you go. I have tried opening the throttle wide as per carbs but the fuel injection seemed unimpressed.
Why does this happen? The simplistic answer is that the fuel injection is confused. It supplies a rich mixture suitable for a cold engine which has already got the remains of a rich mixture from its previous stop/starts. It doesn't start but the injection keeps trying with the rich mixture. Result is flooded cylinders. The only way is to either take out the plugs (a nightmare on most current bikes) to let the engine clear or disconnect the fuel pump (so much simpler).
The above is SO much more likely than any other cause or fault that you need to rehearse by finding the right fuse or connector before you need it as it will ALWAYS happen when you are in a hurry.

 

[MrTwisty]

Re: Very hard starting today

I've had this symptom on 2 cars and 3 bikes. It was always after the engine had momentarily been stopped and started from cold but never warmed up then switched off and left till the next start which was a problem. I have never experienced it with just switching on and off without running. The answer was always the same. Find the wire or fuse for the fuel pump and unplug it, crank the motor to clear the obviously rich mixture. Some like the S10 will fire up from the fuel already swilling around in the pots. Proof that there is an excess of fuel if the engine can start without any injected. On some the fuse may cut the ignition so no fire up. The old carb technique of wide open throttles and a quick spin over should suffice to clear the raw fuel. You can often smell it, if proof were needed. Re-connect the pump and away you go. I have tried opening the throttle wide as per carbs but the fuel injection seemed unimpressed.
Why does this happen? The simplistic answer is that the fuel injection is confused. It supplies a rich mixture suitable for a cold engine which has already got the remains of a rich mixture from its previous stop/starts. It doesn't start but the injection keeps trying with the rich mixture. Result is flooded cylinders. The only way is to either take out the plugs (a nightmare on most current bikes) to let the engine clear or disconnect the fuel pump (so much simpler).
The above is SO much more likely than any other cause or fault that you need to rehearse by finding the right fuse or connector before you need it as it will ALWAYS happen when you are in a hurry.

That makes a lot of sense. I think you are right on with your analysis. ::008::

 

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

The theory that non-starts are due solely to a previous interrupted start which leaves residual fuel and an overly rich mixture is directly refuted by the fact many of us have had non-starts in situations where the bike was shut down normally and then sat for a day, a week, or a month and simply wouldn't fire on the next start attempt. Interrupted starts are a contributing factor but this data clearly shows they're not the root cause.

- Mark

 

[viewdvb]

Re: Very hard starting today

The theory that non-starts are due solely to a previous interrupted start which leaves residual fuel and an overly rich mixture is directly refuted by the fact many of us have had non-starts in situations where the bike was shut down normally and then sat for a day, a week, or a month and simply wouldn't fire on the next start attempt. Interrupted starts are a contributing factor but this data clearly shows they're not the root cause.

- Mark

A very good point but, in some cases like a presumed glitch in the EFI programming, and invariably after the engine has been repeatedly turned over without firing, it will still have an excess of fuel that disconnecting the pump and turning over will clear so the fix might still work. In any case, it is so easy on the S10 that it would pay to try it in every case as it can do no harm.

 

[markjenn]

Re: Very hard starting today

In any case, it is so easy on the S10 that it would pay to try it in every case as it can do no harm.

Perhaps I've been lucky, but in three non-starts, going WOT has resulted in a start within five-secs or so of additional cranking and this is a lot easier than pulling fuses. One thing I don't do is continue to try and start the bike with closed throttle if it doesn't fire right away. If I don't get a start with a few seconds of closed throttle, I assume I'm in the flooded condition and I immediately go WOT.

Not discounting that knowing about the fuel pump fuse trick is a good fallback. But WOT may be doing exactly the same thing - cutting off fuel completely.

- Mark

 

[ptfjjj]

Re: Very hard starting today

Add me to the list. Wouldn't start on the way to work a few days ago. Luckily I had read some of this thread, cuz I used the WOT technique and got it going after about 60 seconds of cranking. I have to admit that I almost never use the kill switch, so that may be the problem with me. I will now start using it to shut down and leave off til ready to start. Hopefully, that will prevent the issue.

 

[Rasher]

Re: Very hard starting today

I have decided to join the hard starting club, or at least my bike has.

I have to admit it may be "short run" related as last time I rode it I gave it a quick cleam shortly after getting home, and then ran it up to help it dry off as I knew it was likely to sit for a few weeks, but it should not have fully cooled when I washed it, and I left it running long enough to get "warm" (i.e. temp gauge no longer showing "lo") before putting it away.

Today (about four weeks later) the weather looked OK so I was gonna go out for a bit, upon trying to start it did not burst instantly into life as normal, and there was a strong petrol smell, another crank and nothing happened so I tried the WOT for a while - still nothing.

Fearing the battery was gonna die I dug out my charger, popped off side panels and hooked up charger, I was gonna leave it to get some power back, but decided to try one more time, this time it started to pop and bang, but the battery was almost gone, the clocks dimming and I thought that's it - and then it fired up, blew out a bit of smoke and a load more fuel smell to coat everything in my garage nicely.

Dropped into my new Yamaha dealer who said they had never heard of this, but seeing as they have probably only sold about two Super Tens I am not surprised - I did ask them to mention it to Yamaha as even if they are not aware we certainly are and I am guessing the more folk complain, the more likely Yamaha may actually do something.

I was also discussing the bike and mods I have done, and plan to do "after the warranty expires" and the service chap said that an ECU flash would probably help - and a sort of off the record acknowledgement of how shite most modern bikes run, he said they see a lot of folks with power commanders and remaps these days.

Once upon a time re-mapping and power commanders were the preserve of racers, track day fiends and pub boasters, these days it sems it is the only way to get an internal combustion engine to properly combust internally. In fact it is only modern sports tourers and adventure bikes I have needed to remap / de-cat, up until the end of the last century most engines ran pretty damn fine on OE settings - even using neolithic technology such as carbs - the good kind

 

[tubebender]

Re: Very hard starting today

You can add me to the list too. 1st time in 18 months of ownership. I've done all the other scenarios, washed bike, start up and shutdown in short time periods, turned key on and off with fuel pump running, and never had an issue.

This time I had shut the bike down after a 150 mile ride, then it sat for 5 days until I tried to start it again.
Didn't fire and seemed to be laboring. Tried it again a noticed dash readout was flashing. Went to WOT and it started.
The only detail that that was different then normal was I had left the map in sport mode. I am usually in tour mode 'cause I like to warm up just like the bike!
Not saying this is a reason, just adding a data point.
One of these days we might have enough info to figure this out.

 

[Rasher]

Re: Very hard starting today

I always run sport mode, I often leave it with the clutch mod (have switch on bar) and sometime turn off bike with kill switch, other times with ignition.

Like others I have probably been through every combination of "possible causes" and had no problems for 4,000 miles.

The bike always stinks of fuel post start and I think the Yamaha cold "Choke" mode is probably a bit too rich and if the bike does not fire on the first couple of combustion strokes is prone to flooding itself.

I think the flood clear WOT mode is a distinct possibility and my dealer told me some Honda's (I think, they run all Jap franchises, anyway it was some non Yamaha model) have a start mode activated by holding WOT when turning on the ignition.

If the Yamaha does have such a mode then they really should circulate the info to dealers and customers - not expensive and may save some frustration, it seems in the days of the internet that manufacturers treat customers as development testers and wait for us (forums) to find the fixes / info for ourselves.