Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.

[taskmaster86]

I'm sorry that you view anything that I have said as negative towards the US or the people of the US (of which we are still), if that is what you are taking away, then sorry.
We have chosen to move away from the US, to allow us and our children to experience the world around us, we have been given this opportunity, it is not easy, not within our comfort zone, different language, cultures and scene but we think it is worthwhile, it's a gift for our children to learn from, know that people are different and to accept that not all those that live outside of the US hate the US. I hope they grow up to think that humans are all equal, there is no one great country, just different. Let's not forget the expense of all this!
We no longer consider the UK or the US home, this for us and our children is home, where we are comfortable, where we feel 'safe', my children walk to school (6+9) on their own, they go into the forest with the class and light camp fires and whittle wood to cook bread and sausages, this is teaching them things that would never be allowed in the US. Freedom? Or choice?
They know nothing about the mass shootings in schools, sure the Swiss are isolated, but they have not gone to war in over 200 years, they don't tend to make enemies, so have no real need for massive defences (although they have some of the best natural ones).
This is not political or religious, it;s just our personal experience dealing with the US government. Wait til they mess with you without cause, then will you sit calmly and let them? We cannot change what the government does, but we can change how we choose to deal with it.

Dogdaze, I am not sure where you lived in the US but I have all the things you mention in the above post and more. Plus I don't pay a 50% Tax rate....

I think the other thing that most of your are forgetting when you talk about the negatives of living in the US is our population. The country of Switzerland has a population of 8.4 million. It is so much easier to make things seem safe, cheery and great when you are only dealing with 8.4 million people. The US has a population of 325.7 million, roughly 40 times that of Switzerland. A great percentage of that 325 million people live in the crowded big cities (for some strange reason) and that presents a lot of social and economic problems. On top of that, if you watch any sort of news in the U.S. It will seem like a horrible place to live. You must keep in mind that statistics prove that most of the problems the U.S. has involving crime, poverty and injustice all take place in the highly populated cities...

I lived in Germany for a bit and then visited several other countries including the England, Ireland, Italy, the middle east, Mexico, Jamaica and a few others. I have also lived in a few different states in the US and I say with confidence that there is no where I would rather live or raise a family than a small town or middle suburbia in America. The big cities are nice to visit once in a while but you could not pay me enough to live there full time. The state I currently live in is too expensive and restrictive to gun ownership (typical, democratic, new england) but is excellent otherwise. I am looking to move back south in the next 10 years or so, I will get around to it when the time is right.

Speaking pragmatically, for your situation, it sounds like there is no advantage for you in keeping your U.S. Citizenship. I would just renounce and not look back. Best of luck to you.

 

[rid34fun]

I have enjoyed reading all the comments and the decency that has been displayed here. No matter where one lives, it is importantly to get involved and be a part of the continued evolution to keep the good and work for changing the under performing parts. Don't just sit around and reap someone else's hard work. Get involved in serving friends, those in need and loving those around you...suddenly wherever you live becomes pretty good. Some countries would not be what they are today if it weren't for strong countries saving them from those desiring to take over. If Germany was not stopped by several involved countries that did invest in military equipment, it is possible that Switzerland may be very different today under Nazi rule as the rest of Europe. Sometimes investing some protection equipment is not a bad thing. The world pretty big and complex, but if we love each other and help people around us, a great life can be made almost anywhere. My advice is to pick the one you feel is best for your family and get involved to help keep it a great place.

Then we will all have place to visit and ride from wherever you choose!

 

[Defekticon]

Ok, let's start by saying that this is not intended to offend any sensitive souls.
But recently I have investigated the avenue of renouncing citizenship, as I find myself at opposite ends of the US government trajectory, for nearly 20 years actually, we are just not on the same path. I have the option of never coming back to the US, and have not in the past 21 years.
I would like to have various points of view, no shouting, yelling or name calling please, civil comments are welcome.
All things being equal, would you do it?
I have dual nationality as does my family so that may give you a better understanding of our personal position, we are not tied to the US by a passport.
I do like the US and think about the kids growing up there, but then I watch the news and see things and think, NO WAY!
Sure, we live in a nice environment here and that may make a difference. What I vehemently dislike is the US government dictating to us how we should be grateful to them and so are never free from their reach, how to spend our money, forget the fact that living abroad was a choice we made (like others) and the assumption that we will all return one day to live out our lives (that will never happen in our case) and so make it extremely difficult for US citizens to put down roots in other countries due to financial pressure of the US.
On top of that, the fees and penalties to pay should you wish to extricate yourself from the shackles of the US brotherhood, almost mafia-like.
The more I see of this the more I am convinced of my opinion that the US is NOT the land of the free, unless you are super rich or in Congress/Senate. You are just a SS number, nothing more.
I do get some are more patriotic than others and I respect you for that, it's just not me, at least not in the sense that I feel I have to agree with everything the US does or I'm not patriotic.

I'd give it a few more years. Right now we're in a period of self flagellation for having really poor candidate choices from both parties (and significant corruption within the DNC). I would have voted for Bernie, but not Hillary - which left me with... Trump. I wasn't real happy about it, but I am enjoying seeing how much turmoil stemmed from what was ultimately the DNC's choice to rig their own primary, they deserve Trump for attempting to install a ringer over Bernie.

It's a painful presidency, but it will be over soon. I think the next presidential choice will have to be very moderate left to take Trump out of office. They'll have to appeal to moderate conservatives, which is what I consider myself. They'd need to be a democratic 2A supporter, fiscally conservative and capable of separating their religious beliefs from their political policy. That's what I'm looking for (and I know I'll likely never find it... the two party system is stupid.)

However, if your renouncement is purely related to tax law and finance, not politics, then go for it.

The news does not reflect reality. CNN and Fox are both symbols of national shame for the US. It's not even news anymore, it's pre-digested opinion stated as fact. Don't judge us on that... Please.

 

[Dogdaze]

However, if your renouncement is purely related to tax law and finance, not politics, then go for it.

This exactly, we never voted in the last election as felt it was wrong to vote for a candidate that does not affect us directly and should be left to those that live in the US.

 

[Defekticon]

This exactly, we never voted in the last election as felt it was wrong to vote for a candidate that does not affect us directly and should be left to those that live in the US.

All good then. I've unfortunately had to travel for business to some really terrible places on this earth. I witnessed real slavery carried out in the name of cultural custom, and justified by cultural relativism. I will say I have traveled through Europe and seen better places as well. But it's the terrible places that give me a firm appreciation of my citizenship. Given your situation however I can understand why you're looking to leave that behind.

 

[Calboy]

What is it exactly that you appreciate based on your citizenship? That you are raped in a lesser way? It may be a fact but the truth is that the big nations have been annihilating the small nations for centuries. That alone cannot justify the fuzzy, warm feeling you experience at the expense of others.
And do yourself a favour and stop drinking the kool-aid that makes you believe that Americans have an ongoing fight in the name of what is morally right according to the scriptures.
That is simply not true. Capitalism has created division by cultivating individualism. In times of political need the government brings out the flag as the last resort, and all we do is place our hands on the heart and sing along to the national anthem, thinking that we all are the perfect patriots driven by good intentions to save the world. When we actually don't give a flying f..k about it. That's the perfect tool that works everytime, clockwork.
People go to church and then screw themselves in the behind just because is possible, and that's the extent of what it has been going on for quite a while.
Put down that little plastic bottle!

 

[Defekticon]

What is it exactly that you appreciate based on your citizenship? That you are raped in a lesser way? It may be a fact but the truth is that the big nations have been annihilating the small nations for centuries. That alone cannot justify the fuzzy, warm feeling you experience at the expense of others.
And do yourself a favour and stop drinking the kool-aid that makes you believe that Americans have an ongoing fight in the name of what is morally right according to the scriptures.
That is simply not true. Capitalism has created division by cultivating individualism. In times of political need the government brings out the flag as the last resort, and all we do is place our hands on the heart and sing along to the national anthem, thinking that we all are the perfect patriots driven by good intentions to save the world. When we actually don't give a flying f..k about it. That's the perfect tool that works everytime, clockwork.
People go to church and then screw themselves in the behind just because is possible, and that's the extent of what it has been going on for quite a while.
Put down that little plastic bottle!

Pass.

Go to any middle eastern country that has the economic power to do good, but lacks the moral fortitude to BE good. Doesn't matter what religion you subscribe to, if your government can't separate really bad religious ideas from your political policy your country is going to have issues. The difference is, in America, you don't get your wedding cake. Over there you die. So yeah, I used to share some of your opinions, before I saw how insane the world really is first hand. After spending some time in a Kuwaiti prison, I appreciate the hell out of my citizenship. Without it, I'd still be there.

 

[Calboy]

Pass.

Go to any middle eastern country that has the economic power to do good, but lacks the moral fortitude to BE good. Doesn't matter what religion you subscribe to, if your government can't separate really bad religious ideas from your political policy your country is going to have issues. The difference is, in America, you don't get your wedding cake. Over there you die. So yeah, I used to share some of your opinions, before I saw how insane the world really is first hand. After spending some time in a Kuwaiti prison, I appreciate the hell out of my citizenship. Without it, I'd still be there.

That proves my point. If you had Congolese citizenship you would have been familiar with a lot of other things that go on behind prison's walls and with no hope in sight.
The American citizenship got you out of that tight spot not because the Kuwaitis cherish Americans but because they fear them, and that's not right.
Anyway, at an individual level the appreciation that came into play after having that experience is easily understood.
We, as people, have an extremely hard time sacrificing for ideas written on a piece of paper. And in times of peril is the self that gathers all the attention from the mind.

 

[Shuey]

Just finished reading all of this thread. I'm a newbie on this site and . . . I'm impressed with the civility of discourse on what could be a heated subject. The originator has written that the decision is made after lengthy family considerations. Thanks for sharing your decision process. I lived in Europe for 8 years, have lived in several different states here in the US and have close foreign friends on several continents to share views with. Pros and Cons on both sides of the decision under discussion have been well made here.

Shuey

 

[bruinTENEREguy]

All things being equal, would you do it?

All things are not equal. And the question is entirely subjective based on your own preferences and ambitions. Would I do it? No. But my ambitions, values, goals, etc. are different than yours.

My politics might not be what you'd expect. I've found myself on both sides on various issues. I've realized that the notion of "propaganda" is not limited to countries like N. Korea; we have plenty of that here too. Most of what you say is true, at least to some degree.

Nevertheless, I believe there is no better club to be a part of. Still the greatest.

(And I, too, have citizenship elsewhere as well.)

A member mentioned that the US is or will be a powerhouse militarily and financially and perhaps I should want to belong to that club. Perhaps for those same reasons of greed and bullying (my view of what that means) is the reason for us to leave?

I suppose this quote is in reference to my own quote above. Perhaps you should renounce; perhaps you shouldn't. If and why are your prerogatives. You asked for feedback so I gave you mine. For me, the fact that the US is the military and economic center of the globe is a reason to want to be here. There is considerable opportunity here. More than anywhere else? I don't know. There is wealth elsewhere. The US doesn't rank #1 in every objective quality of life metric. But I like my life in the US and I like my odds of it getting better. My family is here. I want to be here. Perhaps if I wanted a different life I would live elsewhere. Perhaps if my family lived elsewhere I would too. But I like it here...the weather, the people, the vast landscape, etc. Again, if you don't, fine.

I don't suppose that life n the US would be the epitome of awesomeness for everyone. You seem to think it appropriate to chastise others that feel that way, though. And I'm not sure it is appropriate; perhaps the farmer in rural Guatemala thinks he has the best life in the world. Is he deserving of rebuke? Or is an American who feels that way deserving simply because we actually do have it very, very good here in the US?

But I will say that it appears you asked the initial question for one of two reasons: (1) so you can respond and soapbox about your disapproval of US domestic and foreign policy; or (2) because you actually do have reservations about renouncing. If the case is (2), I suspect your biggest beef with US policy stems from the fact that you DO see value in keeping your US citizenship, even though you don't plan to move back in the foreseeable future, AND you don't like that retaining membership costs you money. If you simply had no interest in the possibility of you and/or your family ever moving to the US and you didn't want to continue to pay to retain that option (i.e. membership), this thread would not exist unless the case of (1).

If the (2) is the case, you can join most other Americans in their resentment of taxes despite the advantages membership affords you. If (1) is the case, well, not everyone that lives HERE approves of the way the elected officials spend our money, but we put up with it because the benefits of membership outweigh the costs (and maybe because some of us have no apparent options). If the benefits don't outweigh the costs for you, well, your mind is made up; but I don't think the door back is easily opened once closed.

You may think the tone of my response indicates that you've struck a nerve. Oh, maybe a little bit. But not because I care whether you keep your citizenship or you don't, or because you are patriotic or you aren't, or because you like US foreign and domestic policy or you don't. I'm just a little surprised at the discourse that has followed about issues that you purport to not be central to your decision-making.

If the case is really just as you say--that you have no ambitions to ever move back, you see no other value in retaining citizenship, and you are tired of paying the costs of your citizenship--then there really isn't any reason for further dialogue unless the case is actually (1). But if (1) isn't the case, in light of the discourse and the logical inferences to be made as reflected in (2), I suggest that maybe you aren't ready to pull out altogether, and that you agree with me that membership has its advantages.

 

[bruinTENEREguy]

Magic, we are looking into it, but so far we have been told that we cannot, maybe they just want us to pay for lawyers?
My wife is US, born and bred, family dates back to the Mayflower, me, I inherited it through a parent, and lived in the US from late teens to 30's. As for SS or medicare, neither one of us really care, will never planned on claiming it, if we could credit someone else who may need it more we would, but it will just get lost in the system.............

I'm not sure if you have a definitive answer to this question or not, and you should seek legal advice from a lawyer.

That said, I believe your children born outside the US to you and their mother (US parents) can "acquire" citizenship.
https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartH-Chapter3.html#S-A

For us Canadian duals, our kids born outside Canada "are" Canadian citizens at birth, but we have to apply for the papers that say so.

If you get citizenship certificates and passports for your kids, I don't see why you couldn't later renounce. The whole process might just take a year or two. Your kids presumably won't need to file taxes in the US until they have an income. I imagine they'll be in the same situation later that you are in now, though.

Again, consult a US immigration attorney. I suspect that getting them citizenship will be pretty straightforward.

 

[Checkswrecks]

My kids are dual citizens, although the US doesn't see it that way. My ex kept her foreign citizenship long after the kids were born here in the US. While the US says the kids could only claim to be dual till 18 or 21 (forgot which) the other country maintains that once a citizen, always a citizen unless renounced.


That's a pretty common policy outside of the US.

 

[SilverBullet]

...That's a pretty common policy outside of the US.

Yes but the opposite gives you slim pickings. If you are a US citizen first I believe there are only 4 or 5 countries that will let you become a citizen of their country.

Sent from my SM-G860P using Tapatalk

 

[Dogdaze]

Yes but the opposite gives you slim pickings. If you are a US citizen first I believe there are only 4 or 5 countries that will let you become a citizen of their country.

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I have disagree, this is list of countries that will allow you to obtain dual citizenship if you are a US citizen,

Australia, Barbados, Belgium, Bangladesh, Canada, Cyprus, Denmark, United States, United Kingdom, Switzerland, South Korea, South Africa (requires permission) , Egypt(requires prior permission), Greece, France, Finland, Germany (requires prior permission), Iraq, Italy, Israel, Ireland, Poland, Hungary, Iceland, Kenya, Sweden, Slovenia, Syria, Serbia, Armenia, Thailand, Lebanon, Malta, Spain ( allows only with certain Latin American countries), Tonga, Philippines, Sierra Leone, Sri Lanka (by retention), Pakistan (accepts only with 16 countries), Portugal, Turkey (requires permission)

 

[SilverBullet]

I have disagree, this is list of countries that will allow you to obtain dual citizenship if you are a US citizen,

Australia, Barbados, Belgium, Bangladesh, Canada, Cyprus, Denmark, United States, United Kingdom, Switzerland, South Korea, South Africa (requires permission) , Egypt(requires prior permission), Greece, France, Finland, Germany (requires prior permission), Iraq, Italy, Israel, Ireland, Poland, Hungary, Iceland, Kenya, Sweden, Slovenia, Syria, Serbia, Armenia, Thailand, Lebanon, Malta, Spain ( allows only with certain Latin American countries), Tonga, Philippines, Sierra Leone, Sri Lanka (by retention), Pakistan (accepts only with 16 countries), Portugal, Turkey (requires permission)

Not sure where I Googled my findings but I do know some countries on your list above require denouncing your US citizenship prior to obtaining theirs.