Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.

[Dogdaze]

Dogdaze, I'm not following you very well here. Could you please clarify this sentence? You can not buy a house for the same (what) reason? It reads like you can not buy a house because you can not pay into a pension, and you *refuse* to pay into an EU based pension because of the double taxation. I understand why one would refuse to pay double taxation, but I do not understand how, as a consequence of that, that you can not become a foreign homeowner or get a loan for one.

I think I also read in the next sentence that, since you still have citizenship ties to the US, that you can not become a banking customer in the EU banking system? Did I read that correctly? What set of rules, or laws, does the EU (or is it just the Swiss) apply to make that true?

What that means is that due to pressure from the US in 2012, most if not all EU banks had to declare to the IRS who they believed to be a US citizen, or they would be liable to financial punishment from the US banking sector, as most EU banks do business in the they could easily freeze the bank's assets, so the banks just throw their customers under the bus or ask them to close their account, which is what they did here in Switzerland. I managed to open an account just before using my UK passport. Banks will not touch you if you want a mortgage, no matter what your income, some even state that if you are a US citizen, you need not apply.
As for the pension scheme here, you pay into it from your salary, your employer tops it up with an equal amount mandated by law. This is called a pillar 2 pension, over and above the state pension, which we do not qualify for due to time in the country, fair enough. The pillar 2 pension has a trajectory, this has a gap in it for all the years we missed by not contributing from the age of 24 (we were not here so that's why). This gap can be filled over the years from your gross salary, at the end of the year your income tax is re-calculated for the amount you paid into the pension, so your tax burden is reduced (pay less tax). We would love to play catch up, but if we did that, our tax burden is reduced and then based on the gross annual salary we paid less tax then we would have, great! Not so much, the IRS do not recognise the 'foreign pension' so want the tax we saved paid to them. This in effect is double taxation, because although we will not pay tax here on that overpayment in to the pension, we will pay tax once we collect as a pension when we retire. So we gain nothing. IRS recommends we pay into a US based pension, which the Swiss do not recognise, so we will not get a tax deduction this end, also we have no intention of retiring in the US so why bother?

It is made all very complex by the IRS, because they do not want to miss out on any tax revenue that may come their way (most of the time they gain nothing because of tax treaties set up, and the fact that we pay the same or more tax anyway, they calculate a dollar for dollar system).
And there you have it, in a very large nut shell. I just want a normal life for us, house, decent education and no real financial worries, goodness knows there will be enough crap coming we will never anticipate for.

 

[Dogdaze]

Thanks CW said it better than me ::008::
Was not trying to divide, just wished to express our frustration with an inept system and our personal situation. For those that think this came about one morning on a whim, you're wrong, this has been one of the hardest decisions we as a family have to make, this is life changing, what if my girls want to live and work in the US later, we have lost that opportunity for them, the burden to do the right thing is enormous and not taken lightly.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Dogdaze mentioned the US getting the change in 2012. It occurred to me to mention that international tax provisions of the IRS also changed and this was after I lived outside of the US so some of the provisions I mentioned from my own experiences have changed. But I doubt that anybody would be surprised if we have another change in administration policy and the IRS could make things even tougher.

We have a lot of older members here and I know somebody who couldn't pay for surgery in the US but found a hospital he was comfortable to go to outside of the US. If he did not declare that he was carrying a check for more than $10,000 then Customs could have seized it. While he ultimately probably could have gotten it returned later and we currently do not have a duty on citizens carrying cash, that could be easily changed.

Stuff like this sells well for voters in the heartland but progressively locks away more ways for a citizen to retain control of what they spend a lifetime to make and save.

 

[Sierra1]

Ok, let's start by saying that this is not intended to offend any sensitive souls.

) That's like saying "with all due respect". ) Not attacking, because I support everybody's right to free speech. I've always been told the quickest way to start an argument is to bring up religion or politics. But, I guess I'm too naïve to understand this post. Why is it a discussion? Here? I think it's cool as hell that Tenere, or any bike, riders can get online to discuss their bikes and the things they do with their bikes. BUT, since I've been defending this country, and the rights of its citizens (permanent & temporary) from enemies both foreign and domestic, since 1985....and I know that I'm not the only one. Please....don't sit there and tell me about how bad my country is. I love my country, regardless of her imperfections. ::001::

 

[Checkswrecks]

I've seen nobody say that the US or any other country is good or bad. I'm also glad to see it's not been a right versus left political argument because those spin into holes really fast, hence my earlier warning about the pruning shears. (I did tip-toe up to the line in mentioning extremism both ways.)


This has been about how the US limits on what we can do have personal impacts on living as citizens abroad.

 

[Blind Squirrel]

It sounds like you made up your mind before posting this thread. Makes sense for you financially, and no perceived down side. My advice is to do it.

 

[mebgardner]

This has been about how the US limits on what we can do have personal impacts on living as citizens abroad.

... and why I've been asking question, and following.

I have also enjoyed living overseas as an employed ex-pat. I find the conversation eye opening.

 

[Sierra1]

I've seen nobody say that the US or any other country is good or bad....

??? Nothing that has been "discussed" has been portrayed as a positive.... To each their own. ::001::

 

[magic]

Dogdaze, after following this thread today, I have a couple of questions. Is it feasible or possible for you and your wife to renounce your U.S. citizenship and wait a awhile before deciding on your children's status? This would leave that option open to them at a later date and also put off the fee until that later date. You never know, your children might want to go to an American university or even work here. How did you become a U.S. citizen? Will you have any Social Security or Medicare benefits due you?

It sounds like you have thought this through very carefully and have done all the research. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Dogdaze]

??? Nothing that has been "discussed" has been portrayed as a positive.... To each their own. ::001::

I'm sorry that you view anything that I have said as negative towards the US or the people of the US (of which we are still), if that is what you are taking away, then sorry.
We have chosen to move away from the US, to allow us and our children to experience the world around us, we have been given this opportunity, it is not easy, not within our comfort zone, different language, cultures and scene but we think it is worthwhile, it's a gift for our children to learn from, know that people are different and to accept that not all those that live outside of the US hate the US. I hope they grow up to think that humans are all equal, there is no one great country, just different. Let's not forget the expense of all this!
We no longer consider the UK or the US home, this for us and our children is home, where we are comfortable, where we feel 'safe', my children walk to school (6+9) on their own, they go into the forest with the class and light camp fires and whittle wood to cook bread and sausages, this is teaching them things that would never be allowed in the US. Freedom? Or choice?
They know nothing about the mass shootings in schools, sure the Swiss are isolated, but they have not gone to war in over 200 years, they don't tend to make enemies, so have no real need for massive defences (although they have some of the best natural ones).
This is not political or religious, it;s just our personal experience dealing with the US government. Wait til they mess with you without cause, then will you sit calmly and let them? We cannot change what the government does, but we can change how we choose to deal with it.

 

[Dogdaze]

Dogdaze, after following this thread today, I have a couple of questions. Is it feasible or possible for you and your wife to renounce your U.S. citizenship and wait a awhile before deciding on your children's status? This would leave that option open to them at a later date and also put off the fee until that later date. You never know, your children might want to go to an American university or even work here. How did you become a U.S. citizen? Will you have any Social Security or Medicare benefits due you?

It sounds like you have thought this through very carefully and have done all the research. Good luck with your decision.

Magic, we are looking into it, but so far we have been told that we cannot, maybe they just want us to pay for lawyers?
My wife is US, born and bred, family dates back to the Mayflower, me, I inherited it through a parent, and lived in the US from late teens to 30's. As for SS or medicare, neither one of us really care, will never planned on claiming it, if we could credit someone else who may need it more we would, but it will just get lost in the system.............

 

[Madhatter]

dogdaze, what a profound situation you are in to have to consider picking one country over another..... not something to take lightly for sure.... to be an American , and I had the good fortune to be born here, is a good thing ... it seems the whole world is trying to get here.... is the American government perfect , no , no , no..... that is why we revere ( most people ) the constitution ..... the problem is that every government can become onerous , dangerous , totalitarian .... some times it happens slowly, how do you cook a live frog? turn the heat up slowly on the pot of water that its sitting in.... our slow drift away from the core constitutional beliefs are part of our problem , not all ..... have you ever heard someone say " there aught to be a law against that " to many here forget that every law passed takes some freedom away.... laws are what keep society civil , but laws can steal your freedoms ...... and every government is about the money..... those nations (in Europe ) who advocate socialist ideals are protected by NATO , and who is NATO , mostly its the USA.... Europe is fertilized with the blood of its people ..... and it will be again..... it could happen here as well.... the American civil war is one example ..... no government is perfect nor should it be trusted.... we pay for most of the worlds problems in blood and treasure , so the US wants all the money it can get from all its people..... I hate taxes , its an American right to express themselves , we have an on going fight to do what is right and good for all Americans and it has been this way in America since 1776 , and it will continue with all its ups and downs with all the dirty laundry for the world to see till Gabriel blows his horn ..... one day its good to be a jew in Germany , the next it is a capitol offense to be a jew... that is what we fight against or should , every where. I wish you peace in your choices ( it has to be a very hard thing to even consider ) , I'm thankful I live here .

 

[Dogdaze]

Madhatter, I agree with you, erosion of rights. And no government is in it for you!
We never thought we would be in this situation, ever! It's not about paying taxes, more about being fair. We pay our taxes here, slightly more than the US, but what's left does not go as far (loaf of bread $3.00, gas $1.80 per liter, average 3-bed house, $1.3m, nothing special either), and we accept that is the price we pay. However, when we are able it contribute a little more into our post work lives (pension) and gain a tax break, the IRS say, NO, we'll take any money you just saved and on top tax you for any company contributions you may get! But if you want, please feel free you pay into a US pension fund of what's left!
As we (my wife and I) have no plans on ever living or working in the US, why can we not build a sustainable life here? Why should we live in poverty (hyperbole) because the IRS will not acknowledge that some US citizens may want to live, work and retire abroad.
This is not about being unpatriotic, it's about fairness! We don't skimp on our taxes, we cannot determine what they do with it, but we get some benefit from it, if we paid into the US tax, we get nothing.
Most of the time we are at a break even scenario, apart from the $1000 filing fees from the CPA, but once we started looking into playing catch up here on pension and buying a house then we were advised by the CPA, DON'T!
On the bright side, our kids can stay dual citizens, until 18 then they can make an informed choice.

I'm pragmatic about it once I get angry, calm down and accept, my wife is struggling immensely with this, she has no desire to live in the US, but the fact that that right will be gone is very upsetting to her. On top of that, the bullying by the IRS and State Dept with vague threats.............. Sure, like that will make me favour the US??
Freedom? What is this freedom you speak of? ::009::

 

[Madhatter]

Dogdaze, freedom , I have it , it seems in most areas of life . it is something that most of the world will never see or know. it has a high cost to get and to keep. like every thing of value in life there are thieves waiting to take it. I work where I want , I travel where and when I want , I say what I want , I own firearms , I wear firearms , I openly wear firearms in public , I worship my God at the place of my choice , I gather in groups with others with out permission of any government , speak about our political situation with out fear from the government , I vote , I serve as an elective official in my community, if I don't like what is happening in this state I can move to a state that more my way, I can argue ( carefully and in none threatening way ) with a police officer if I don't agree with the citation ( he or she is an officer doing a hard job ) or just say good day and be on my way ( best to argue in court ) . those are a few things and there are others I'm sure I'm forgetting ....... then there are rules , you need a license to drive , to fish ( unless you own the body of water , say a pond on your property) to hunt , other fees and licenses out there a plenty.... then there are taxes , every freedom loving person hates taxes , having money gives you more choices in life , and taxes takes money out of your pocket that you can use to help yourself. but life being what it is , we have governments and they need money to operate .... as a church going Christian I give part of my income to the church and at times when I talk to someone who doesn't really like church , they have been known to say , all preachers want is your money , or something to that effect , well churches need money to run the lights , air conditioners etc..... and I like air conditioning .... so do governments need money to function.... we have political parties that want more of your money and for once in a blue moon have one who is taking less..... freedom , I am blessed to know it , to feel it , to revere it , to recognize it , and to guard it ..... I would not live any where else but here even with all the imperfections , because our system is such that it can change things for the better , and it has and there is more to do and more to protect , we will go to far and we will not have gone far enough ..... there may be a day when America is no more, the world will tremble in fear and darkness if that day comes.... freedom.

 

[SilverBullet]

Madhatter I'm not saying this is you but something I've personally witnessed many times.

Persons stating that the US (and Texas) is the best place in the world and they wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Upon questioning, majority have never lived outside of Texas their whole life. Many have never even traveled outside the US even to vacation let alone live there or experience an extended stay. One person I know has never even traveled outside of Texas his entire life and he is over 50.

Similar as mentioned in above posts about perception/slant by the media reporting other places. You'll never really know where you truly want to be until you start exploring the world.

Sent from my SM-G860P using Tapatalk

 

[Madhatter]

it was just my thoughts on freedom... i've travelled , I'm well read . the usa is still the best hope for freedom in the world , even with our struggles .... Dogdaze has an impossible choice , one he and his wife must decide , I'm thankful its not something I have to choose between , here or there , has to be nerve wracking... my only advise would be to not rush in this... and I'm betting their not doing that.... I love this country and I love being a Texan most of all , nothing wrong with Oklahoma , Colorado, Arizona, or my 2nd favorite state to live in , Missouri .... born in Texas , will finish my days here. ive not been to Europe yet , it is on the list of places to go after retirement..... I hear its a nice place to visit.

 

[Calboy]

It is advice and not advise, in this particular case...
Well read!

 

[Calboy]

Dogdaze, are you doing this on purpose?
Personal decisions are just that, personal decisions.
Nobody can offer you a real solution. You are the main character in this "independent" movie called life. You are the idol, the hero, the victim, the poet, the genius and the fool, simply irreplaceable.
Everybody else constitutes the supporting cast, at best. They don't really matter to you anyway. The best support possible can only be found inside yourself. Stop wasting your time.

 

[Checkswrecks]

In this forum we've got members who've hung together for years now, many re-meeting here after the sport touring groups (FJR/ST13/C14/Strom/MSTA/etc) for even longer periods. I've gotten to know a number of you just electronically and never face to face, made close personal friends, and my house is open. We have shared the loss of wives, births of kids and grand kids, marriages, and divorces.

While it's true that we all are responsible for our decisions and lives, "No man is an island" is also true. We all want friends and need input to make decisions and get through after those decisions are enacted. Dogdaze shared his thoughts here, knowing he might get flamed for them.



As for "...freedom , I have it , it seems in most areas of life . it is something that most of the world will never see or know..." I am absolutely NOT knocking anybody for loving their home and I'm not saying anything negative about anywhere on the map. I choose to live in the US, but to paraphrase what SilverBullet wrote (another guy I've had the pleasure to get to know), phrases like this reinforce how little so many people in the US know about actually living beyond where they are, especially abroad.

It's not new, as Mark Twain said long ago: “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” But then Twain also much later wrote this one that I'm coming to understand: “I have seen all the foreign countries I want to except heaven & hell & I have only a vague curiosity about one of those.”

 

[nondairycreamer]

Many years ago when I was in college I hoped to live and work in Switzerland. It didn't work out but I'm ok.

As for Swiss independence from conflict she has done ok. A lot of serious belt tightening during WW2 due to independent policy and blocked access to international trade except for some deals with both sides; they still forced down fighters and bombers from both sides and imprisoned the crews. The banks helped hide stolen fortunes from the Jews and others and then stole them for themselves. We have vulture capitalists and other swine here that wreck economies and countries world wide.

It is inspiring that the Swiss can direct vote on foreign policy, and the wisdom of crowds has proven time again to be better than the experts. They don't kowtow to the EU or anyone else. They don't try to rearrange and bully the world for their corporations. They compete as well as any other country and are consistently in the top two of all nations in competitiveness, standard of living, health, etc. Sweden is one of the other top two. USA has some misplaced priorities that keep 30% of all children at poverty level and health near or at 20th place of all industrial countries. I could go on with the statistics but someone will wave the flag and goose step all over the thread. I would like to live in any country that is as well run as Switzerland. And the girls are really cute.