avc flash vs ecunleashed flash

RENOVATOR20

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I got to ride with Oklarider today. We traded bikes and rode some back roads for an hour or so. He has the AVC flash and I have the ECunleashed gen 2 flash.

I can say the AVC improves performance over the stock ecu with my butt dyno. The tourning mode was peppier than stock. The sport mode also was an improvement over stock. I could not tell much difference between the two in the short time I rode it. The CJM super mode was good. It accellerated briskly through the gears and was more powerful then either modes. I liked it.

The ECUnleashed only has sport and touring modes. The sport mode acceleration is really good. AVC seems to accelerate a little better in super sport mode. Touring mode is more docile and I like it in the dirt.

Both are good. I am partial to mine probably because I am used to it and I do not like to use the cjm. The AVC flash is a bargain. I bought mine before it was available. If I had to make the choice today, it would be a difficult one.
I am not an engineer and just enjoy riding and tweaking my ride. It was a enjoyable experience to meet OKLArider today. Thanks Randy
 

avc8130

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Thanks for the comparison.

I be curious to hear OKLRider's opinion going the other way too.

Honestly, it isn't really "fair". Luke's flash was literally the first one I did other than my personal bike. A LOT has changed since then. I am really glad to hear how comparable my 2nd attempt appears to be to the ECUnleashed. Your descriptions of Luke's modes are pretty accurate. His T and S ARE very similar.

ac
 

oKLRider

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I may not be the best judge for all conditions, because I rarely (ok, never) use 'T' mode...but happy to post my thoughts.

I'd never met Randy before yesterday, but we sent a few PMs back and forth, and found a time where we could meet for lunch. After that, we mounted the opposite steed and were off. Total miles? Hard to say as I didn't keep track. ~30? More than just a spin down the road and back, and enough to get a decent feel for the bike(s).

'Testing' conditions? Road type was a good variety on everything from in town riding, paved 2-lane country roads, state highway, and gravel roads. We didn't do a full on drag race or anything, but I rolled into his pretty hard (not as hard as I would my own, mind you...never hit the limiter) and he followed suit right behind me. Don't read into the 'behind me', as he was only following because I was more familiar with the area. :)

These two bikes are probably about as close as you can get for an apples/apples comparison, when meeting at random like we did. Mileage was the only 'big' difference, if you want to call it that. Mine is ~23k, and his ~10k IIRC? Same year range. Same pipe (2Bros, slip-on). Same tire, well, the rear anyway. Both running panniers, though mine were loaded slightly. Both riders roughly the same weight (guessing). Similar farkle weight. Not scientific by any means, but it just conveniently worked out that way. All of my experimenting with his bike were with TCS off, and I believe it was the same for him.

As Anthony said, I've got the original version. Keep that in mind when reading my review. If you want to read my original review of his flash, see here: http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=10522.msg174819#msg174819

I'm sure everyone is dieing to know which is better, so just get to it already....right?! ::024::
.......
...
.
::017::

The short version is that they are very close. They've both got their slight differences, but the overall result is real close. Again, this is with what I'm used to on mine 'S2' (or SuperSport, Hooligan, whatever you want to call the bonus map) vs. Randy's in the ECUnleashed (Gen2) 'S' mode.

Right away I noticed that his throttle response felt 'smoother', where mine is more...what's the word...crisp? Responsive? Sensitive? It's admittedly 'hyper'sensitive, as AVC told me it was one of his experiments, and I've grown to really like it. The power/acceleration is probably about the same, but mine 'feels' 'faster' because of the increased throttle input variable(s). Nothing wrong with his, as it definitely pulls harder than stock, but does so with throttle response in a (only slightly) less reactive manner. Not better or worse, just different. I'm used to mine, so that's what I like. The same for Randy, I'm sure. Mine may have even felt too 'snatchy' for him at first, but I won't put words in his mouth.

I did rolls-ons in multiple gears, on different terrain types, and his pulled well. They both run about the same RPM, at the same speed, just as you'd expect. I also didn't notice any difference in running temps, just as you'd expect. I won't even comment much on 'T' mode, because I don't use it. I did switch his over, but only for one whack of the throttle. That's all it took, and I was back in 'S'. :D

The more I type, the more I find it difficult to describe the two without being completely subjective. But hopefully between both of our inputs you guys can figure out what works best for you. Randy said it best, and that's the point that AVC's version is a bargain. I have no regrets with mine.

Randy commented on something yesterday that I'm sure a lot of people have asked themselves. Paraphrasing, "That's quite a gamble to send off your ECU to a complete stranger half way across the country, not knowing what's going to happen?!" That's true, I suppose, but I didn't look at it much differently than sending it to AF1, or any other vendor. Considering he can fine tune it to work however you want, that makes him better than the big guys in my book. After a few emails I saw a guy who enjoyed his bike, but found a way to make it better, did so, and then was willing to share his knowledge with other owners. As the guinea pig, I guess the same could be said for me.

The reduced rate? That's an internal battle you'll have to deal with on your own. Some people have the "I paid more, it's gotta be better!" mentality. I'm not one of them. Considering that this is a S10 forum, and not some other brand, there are probably a few more like me. I read a post one time from AVC that was in defense of his 'marketing' posts. I think it was on ADV. He said, "...it doesn't matter where you get it flashed...me, Flash-Tune, etc....just do yourself a favor and get the damn thing flashed!" I've never met the man in person, but I'll agree, and if we ever do get to meet the first beer is on me.

::003::
 

oKLRider

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...and what's a post without pics? Here's a shot that Randy snapped before we parted ways.
I enjoyed it, we should do it again some time... ::001:: ::26::

 

avc8130

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oKLRider said:
...and what's a post without pics? Here's a shot that Randy snapped before we parted ways.
I enjoyed it, we should do it again some time... ::001:: ::26::

Randy,

Thanks for the review. It is only proper to have BOTH of you guys spell out your opinions.

I have to admit. I'm proud of myself after reading both opinions. I nailed a flash, on essentially my first try, that appears to be darn close to ECUnleashed Gen 2!

I'm not sure the comparison is valid, though. I know you went through all of the differences in the bikes, but you didn't mention you were cheating starting out with the faster BLUE model!

I'll take that beer ::003::. I've "met" some of the nicest and best motorcyclists through this adventure. It is clear that most of the guys who email/call me have the same sickness and passion for motorcycling that I do. I have more offers for beers, lodging, rides, foods, etc than I could list. If I lose my job I'm going to hop around the country from flashed ECU to flashed ECU for 3 months!

ac
 

snuffcityrider

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Good review's, even though I had come to the conclusion that twice the price between the two flashes didn't equate to twice as good necessarily. Now I have some evidence to back up my opinion. Probably send mine to AVC this August when most of my adventures will require an air conditioner or just hop on one of my other steed's if I feel like riding in a furnace ::26::
 

Dallara

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~


You know, the greatest thing about this entire ECUnleashed vs. AVC re-flash thread is that it points out a truly wonderful situation...

Back in 2011, when the Super Tenere first hit the shores in the USA, everyone knew that the bike had some, shall we say "odd" throttle restrictions programmed into the ECU. No one really knew why Yamaha did it, though there was tons of conjecture... Emissions, liability, reliability, etc., etc. I don't think we've ever actually learned the real reason why the restrictions are there, but AVC's own data pretty much ruled out them being there for emission control reasons. Still the restrictions were there, and for the most part the growing Super Tenere community wasn't very happy about it.

At that time stories started coming out about ECU re-flashes in Europe, first from Off-The-Road.de in Germany then from Diapason in Italy. There were some reports and reviews from Euro owners about the effectiveness of these re-flashes, but no one knew if they would work with USA-model ECU's. There were some who took the chance and sent their ECU's from the States to Diapason in Italy, but very little info about how the re-flash really worked on the USA bikes.

Then ECUnleashed here in the USA began releasing their own re-flash - often referred to as their "Gen 1" flash. Some jumped right on that bandwagon, myself included, and the reviews started coming in. Some were underwhelmed, but they were the folks expecting big power gains. Others were plenty happy, like me, but those seemed to be the people who were simply looking to get those throttle restrictions removed, and the Gen 1 did that. Still, it wasn't perfect... There was very, very little, if any, difference between "S" and "T" mode with the ECUnleashed Gen 1 re-flash, and though it was easy to tell the throttle restrictions were removed the throttle response was still a bit "soft" and leisurely, at least compared to what was hoped for and what was heard from the Euro re-flashes.

I guess the loved/hated/misunderstood CJM, or "clutch jumper mod", should be mentioned... It, too, removed the throttle restrictions, and for want of a simpler way to describe it, did so by invoking the bike's "neutral" map, essentially intended for warm-up and stationary running. I won't go into all the common misconceptions and often wild claims made by some about the effectiveness of the CJM. The fact is many used it, some liked it, others didn't... And some still use it today.

But this is right around where AVC entered the picture. He had been trying to get "Flash Tune" involved in doing something with the Super Tenere, and thanks to his persistence he finally got them to "crack" a Super Tenere ECU, access the factory mapping, and then develop the hardware and software to allow him to start learning what made the Super Tenere ECU tick.

AVC's first terrific contribution was to start telling us all what was going inside the Super Tenere's ECU, and one of the first things he reported was that there were potential problems with the CJM. Many didn't want to hear it, but nevertheless AVC reported the facts, and started working on his own ideas for a "re-flash".

Meanwhile, ECUnleashed had been working to improve their Gen 1 re-flash, and announced they had a newer, better solution... Though ECUnleashed never called it that, it was quickly dubbed the "Gen 2", and ECUnleashed was very gracious in offering it free of charge to those who had purchased the "Gen 1", effectively giving them a free upgrade. And now, if you purchased an ECUnleashed re-flash from their vendors - like AF-1 Racing - you got the newer, and as it turned out much, much better "Gen 2" mapping. Best of all was that this newer "Gen 2" re-flash was indeed a vast improvement, and was (and still is) met with overwhelmingly positive reviews. Rave reviews and comments like "makes the bike run like it should have from the factory" quickly made this re-flash one of the best "farkles" you could get for your Super Tenere, and certainly one of the best "bang for the buck" performance mods out there... Especially if you got it from the better customer service oriented vendors like AF-1, who often had your ECU back out to you on the very day they received it.

Then AVC started reporting on his own re-flashing experiments on his own ECU, and things immediately started to get more interesting. At first AVC was only suggesting that other Super Tenere owners purchase the hardware to do their own ECU tuning for themselves from "Flash Tune", and that he would help them with any questions they might have. But more and more people were asking if he could simply re-flash their ECU for them, and the next thing you know AVC is pumping out fully custom ECU re-flashes for a substantially lower price than the ECUnleashed product...

And now we all start hearing some true "back-to-back" reviews and reports of just how AVC's re-flash compares to the ECUnleashed product, and just how good his work is, too.

So now that we're done with the history lesson, you may be asking why I initially said this was such a wonderful situation?

Because when the Super Tenere first came to the USA it was difficult at best to get any sort of ECU re-flash here, but my how things have changed. Now we have some really great choices. You can still get the proven, well received and reviewed ECUnleashed Gen 2 re-flash from great shops like AF-1 Racing in Texas, or you can get something here in North America that you can't get anywhere else - a truly custom re-flash that is obviously competitive in performance to the ECUnleashed flash (or anyone else's for that matter) and yet is available for half the money! It doesn't get much better than that!

And perhaps most interesting of all... I'll bet that AVC has a re-flash available for the 2014 model Super Tenere long before any of the other ECU re-flash outfits do.

I hope the North American Super Tenere community realizes just how lucky we are. AVC's given us something here that other folks in the world can't get. ::008::

Pretty cool. 8)

Dallara



~
 

ec90t

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Very well written Dallara! Great history lesson for those of us who are newbies to the S-T.

I have Ac's flash and it made a world of difference on my S-T!
 

Raggety

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When I read about the flashing - I get greener and greener.

Maybe must organise an Iron Butt Dirt Ride around South Africa for AVC after we got a lot of flashes for AVC to do here.

I wil later this weekend post on the Wilddog Forum here in South Africa ( that have subscribers in other parts of the world ) under the Super Tenere Techinacal thread and see how mane S10's we can get that want to do flashing ( of the ECU). And still trying to get an South African ECU part number/
 

Rasher

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Just a real shame the Yamaha ECU cannot be externally read by the FT interface and answer all of the questions.

Would FT be prepared to read an ECU-U flash if someone lent them their ECU-u unit :question:

Another comparison I believe can be done in the states is to swap ECU's between bikes, it does not take long and if two people could meet up it allows someone to try the flash without you letting them loose on your pride and joy

With UK (and I assume other European) models this is not possible as the ECU's are tied in with the ignition unit and key - which also means if an ECU fails you need to buy a complete kit with all locks and keys (£1700 / $2500 :exclaim:)
 

avc8130

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Rasher said:
Just a real shame the Yamaha ECU cannot be externally read by the FT interface and answer all of the questions.

Would FT be prepared to read an ECU-U flash if someone lent them their ECU-u unit :question:

Another comparison I believe can be done in the states is to swap ECU's between bikes, it does not take long and if two people could meet up it allows someone to try the flash without you letting them loose on your pride and joy

With UK (and I assume other European) models this is not possible as the ECU's are tied in with the ignition unit and key - which also means if an ECU fails you need to buy a complete kit with all locks and keys (£1700 / $2500 :exclaim:)
I've spoken to Flash Tune about just that. If someone with the ECUnleashed flash were to buy a Flash Tune harness, they would be willing to extract the flash for backup purposes.

ac
 

Rasher

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avc8130 said:
I've spoken to Flash Tune about just that. If someone with the ECUnleashed flash were to buy a Flash Tune harness, they would be willing to extract the flash for backup purposes.
That is a great offer, if they were UK based I would take them up on it, be great to be able to get the last little bit of perfection with some dyno time. the UK ECU-U dealer did actually do a fair few different dyno runs on mine and declared it fairly good, but also said with a Power Commander and dyno time to get the bile setup perfectly they are noticeably better, but to be able to customise the flash would be perfect....

... is there a limit to how many re-flashes can be done to an ECU :question: I know once upon a time many EPROM type electronics could be sensitive to too many write operations or even have re-write limits built in, I would hope the ECU is pretty much limitless non-volatile RAM.
 

avc8130

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Rasher said:
That is a great offer, if they were UK based I would take them up on it, be great to be able to get the last little bit of perfection with some dyno time. the UK ECU-U dealer did actually do a fair few different dyno runs on mine and declared it fairly good, but also said with a Power Commander and dyno time to get the bile setup perfectly they are noticeably better, but to be able to customise the flash would be perfect....

... is there a limit to how many re-flashes can be done to an ECU :question: I know once upon a time many EPROM type electronics could be sensitive to too many write operations or even have re-write limits built in, I would hope the ECU is pretty much limitless non-volatile RAM.
Doesn't your buddy have the ability to do this?

I have heard that the chip manufacturer rates the EEPROMs for 100 writes.

ac
 

jbrown

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avc8130 said:
Doesn't your buddy have the ability to do this?

I have heard that the chip manufacturer rates the EEPROMs for 100 writes.

ac
100 is the spec'd minimum.
From the renesas chip documentation:

Item Symbol Min Typ Max Unit
...
Reprogramming count NWEC 100 — — Times
...
 

avc8130

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Raggety said:
Still trying to get a affordable flasj option here in the RSA

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
WHAT PART NUMBER ARE YOUR ECUs? Until we know that answer, I can't help you at all.

ac
 

Rasher

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avc8130 said:
Doesn't your buddy have the ability to do this?
May get back onto him over the winter, as it now seems opening up these ECU's is not all that risky, and my warranty is now up.

My understanding is most ECU tuning companies use some sort of encryption in their own software which means even if the tuner I know of extracted the raw binary code and decoded it, whatever format he uses would not be compatible with FT, and I suspect he would not want to start handing out copies of the code, currently he does not offer any generic flashes, but does bespoke setup on his own dyno, you drop off the bike and he optimizes fuelling and ignition, removes restrictions and will do any other customizations you ask for.

The other option I mah have is take him my bike with the FT software and let him loose, just that insecurity that at the end I may prefer the ECU-U that has been overwritten, but if I could have that as my start point and just sort the slight surge just off idle caused by the headers and get the fuelling spot on for my bike / exhaust combo I would be very happy.

Plus maybe pep up T-Mode a bit, I sometimes find S-Mode a little too sensitive when pottering around town, but stock T-Mode is just a bit too weak for my liking, I think I would like something half way between the two.


I have heard that the chip manufacturer rates the EEPROMs for 100 writes.
I hope you have been keeping a count on your own ECU with all the dev work you have done :exclaim:
 
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