Yamaha - YES Failure to Stand By the Product - Carbon Bildup Excuse

[amoller]

Dear fellow riders and ST owners,

Would like to report my extremely frustrating experience with Yamaha North America.

The Bike:

- 2012 with 34K Miles
- 2nd owner
- Bike extremely well taken care of and always serviced.

The Issue:

- Morning of 28MAY, upon starting the bike, an unfamiliar, loud metal to metal noise was noticed. The engine stop running in less than 5 seconds. My immediate thought was that the bike failed due to the CCT. I trailered the bike to my local Yamaha dealer that morning.
- the bike is "protected" by YES
- A week and a half passes and I was notified by the dealer that the failure was due to extreme carbon build up. Pictures attached
- Also notified that YES would not cover the repair costs
- I proceeded in contacting YAMAHA. Took a few attenpts to get the representative handling my case. When I finnaly received a call back, I was told that the failure is a rider related problem and not a product issue. The representative told me that I most likely "lugged" the engine or used poor quality gasoline or both. At one point he told me that "additives" available in the market could have helped.

My response:

1- Lugging the engine. Not possible. Quite the opposite based on my ridding style. Not to mention, this bike has an enormous amount of torque and the Yamajha manual itself, shows 37mph on 6th gears as acceptable
2- Fuel quality. Bike always, under my ownership, used premium gas. Also not a valid argument from Yamaha. A bike designed to go around the world, will/should run with low quality fuel.
3- Fuel Additive could have helped. No comments. Could not believe the representative actually mentioned this.

After weeks of debate, Yamaha agreed to pay for the parts and I am still responsible for the labor which will total aprox $1300. I asked to get the CCT replaced while work was being done already and Yamaha refused. This will add another $200, approximately bringing my total, unnecessary expenses to $1500

Today, 24JUL, I still don't have my bike back. Hope to have it by next weekend

My local dealer has been very helpful and patient with my sitation. My challenge was Yamaha

- No calls back. Had to escalated multiple times until a call was returned
- YES program is good until you needed. Other than that, I would not recommend it to anyone. Invest the money on the bike instead
- During the entire process, I was very cordial, respectful. Perhaps should have handled it differently.

To conclude, I truly enjoy the motorcycle. Disappointed to this very early failure and the lack of support from Yamaha. While I will, essentially, have a "new" motor, I wonder if I should keep the bike or move on.

Any comments/recommendations are welcomed.

 

[Dogdaze]

Well that sucks. So to clear things up for me, did the CCT fail or was it something else? And what fuel do they recommend you use? There is a lot of carbon granted, but unless you use very high octane and always run the bike over 4k rpm there will always be this potential issue.

 

[amoller]

Thanks for your note/comment

Dealer claimed the CCT was Ok. I asked for the new part to be installed. I always use premium gas, ride on Sport mode which does rev up the engine higher than Touring. I have been riding since I was 14 and know how to ride and not to "lug' an engine. Ironically, a month prior to the failure, I had a 4500 mile trip out west and also did get the Saddle Sore certification, 1041 miles in 19 hours. No lugging.

Love the bike, not impressed with Yamaha Extended Service.

 

[Dogdaze]

So what was the cause of the loud metallic sound if not the CCT failing, did the valves 'freeze'?

 

[EricV]

I've been around the block with Yamaha warranty before, and had both positive and less than positive experience with the YES managers over different claims on different bikes at different times.

I think what DD is asking, and I am curious about as well, is what was the failure that prevented the bike from starting? Carbon build up doesn't cause metallic clanks. It can hold a valve open, but that has to get pretty bad before it will cause failure to start.

FWIW, the YES specifically does not claim a few things. Piston rings, WEAR, etc. It's very clear what they don't cover.

The additive is called Ring Free and is a Yamaha product. Some others might help as well, but this is known to keep things cleaner, but not necessarily help after the fact.

 

[amoller]

So what was the cause of the loud metallic sound if not the CCT failing, did the valves 'freeze'?

Correct. Explanation given was that the valves froze

 

[Dogdaze]

Correct. Explanation given was that the valves froze

??? ??? ??? thanks EricV, I'll look into Ring Free, as I normally run under 3k rpm, the bike seems happy at these revs and I get to keep some of my money and not send it to the local Police Xmas fund.............

 

[amoller]

I've been around the block with Yamaha warranty before, and had both positive and less than positive experience with the YES managers over different claims on different bikes at different times.

I think what DD is asking, and I am curious about as well, is what was the failure that prevented the bike from starting? Carbon build up doesn't cause metallic clanks. It can hold a valve open, but that has to get pretty bad before it will cause failure to start.

FWIW, the YES specifically does not claim a few things. Piston rings, WEAR, etc. It's very clear what they don't cover.

The additive is called Ring Free and is a Yamaha product. Some others might help as well, but this is known to keep things cleaner, but not necessarily help after the fact.

Hello Eric, when describing the metal noise, this is what I thought it was as it appeared to be metal noise. It only lasted a few second and this is the best I can described. The dealer's explanation was that the valves did freeze. Apologies for the lack of more technical details but I'm not an familiar in how to properly diagnose the problem and also to properly challenge/articulate the claim provided by the dealer which I believe is being honest with his assessment.

Just wonder the perhaps that is another component which could have affected the build up which I would like to make sure that is replaced in order to avoid the problem in the future.

 

[SilverBullet]

So what was the cause of the loud metallic sound if not the CCT failing, did the valves 'freeze'?

This. I don't read anything above on what actually failed. Was your CCT already getting noisy?

Also you praise your dealer and blame YES which is not correct IMO. Your dealer diagnosed problem and presented findings to Yamaha in a way that got your YES coverage denied. Failure due to high carbon buildup at 34K miles is bollocks to me.

_

 

[Kevhunts]

You say the dealer stated the valves "froze", did they freeze in the open position?
Was the metallic sound the pistons hitting the open valve(s)? Did the valve(s) bend?
Lugging the engine might produce some carbon but I would think as soon as you opened her up, the carbon would burn off?
A very rich fuel mix or oil burning is more likely the cause of carbon build up in my opinion.
Have you noticed any poor fuel mileage or oil consumption?

 

[amoller]

This. I don't read anything above on what actually failed. Was your CCT already getting noisy?

Also you praise your dealer and blame YES which is not correct IMO. Your dealer diagnosed problem and presented findings to Yamaha in a way that got your YES coverage denied. Failure due to high carbon buildup at 34K miles is bollocks to me.

_

As stated, I initially thought it was CCT. Ultimately failure was related to "carbon buildup" which by the way was ultimately stated by Yamaha's technician at hq after I requested my case to be escalated. Prior to that no clear answer to my questions related as to why the claim was being declined. Pictures etc were provided by the dealer to Yamaha to make the final determination. Almost like a case of the doctor prescribing you a medication but someone from the insurance company decide what is best for you recommending an alternative.

 

[EricV]

??? ??? ??? thanks EricV, I'll look into Ring Free, as I normally run under 3k rpm, the bike seems happy at these revs and I get to keep some of my money and not send it to the local Police Xmas fund.............

Other products with similar benefits are PRI-G and Seafoam.

Seafoam can be used as an oil or gas treatment and I've used it as both, but it's not as effective as a 'shock' treatment for carbon build up, where you suck it into the system with a manifold vacuum line, shut the engine down and let sit for 30-90 minutes, then fire it up and run hard with a high ratio of cleaning agent in the fuel. The 'shock' method is not for the inexperienced. You can suck too much in and do damage.

The PRI-G is more concentrated and is sold as a fuel stablizer as well as having de-carbonizing properties. Not sure how comparable it is to Yamaha Ring Free Plus.

I did have quite a bit of carbon build up on my pistons and cylinder head when my CCT failed at 82K. I only use premium gas. :question: I should probably use a more regular treatment of one of the products I listed above and/or Techron now and then as well. My FJR also suffered a lot of carbon build up by 100k. Not enough to freeze a valve, which sounds more like a guide issue to me, but I don't know what other things might cause that failure.

@amoller - I understand. It's difficult to describe sounds, especially ones you only hear briefly. A seized valve can be caused by various issues, some mechanical, like alignment issues, others more subtle and user caused. Here is an article that covers some common issues, to give you some ideas. http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar1192.htm

The shop should have been good enough to check for other issues. While carbon build up on Yamaha engines is common, not to the point of a failure at the mileage you have.

Were you using a noticeable amount of oil between changes?

What interval do you prefer for oil changes?

Filter every time? (Yamaha actually implies every other time, which I find odd)

Are you a steady throttle guy, or a brake in, power out of the turns, wind it out down the on ramp, etc. type of rider?

@DD - I have 80 mph speed limits here, so cruising at 3k isn't going to happen.

 

[amoller]

You say the dealer stated the valves "froze", did they freeze in the open position?
Was the metallic sound the pistons hitting the open valve(s)? Did the valve(s) bend?
Lugging the engine might produce some carbon but I would think as soon as you opened her up, the carbon would burn off?
A very rich fuel mix or oil burning is more likely the cause of carbon build up in my opinion.
Have you noticed any poor fuel mileage or oil consumption?

Not able to answer as to what position the valves froze. Valves did bend. Changed the oil every 5k miles and did not noticed an consumption. On my last long trip I did get an average of 42 mpg

 

[amoller]

Other products with similar benefits are PRI-G and Seafoam.

Seafoam can be used as an oil or gas treatment and I've used it as both, but it's not as effective as a 'shock' treatment for carbon build up, where you suck it into the system with a manifold vacuum line, shut the engine down and let sit for 30-90 minutes, then fire it up and run hard with a high ratio of cleaning agent in the fuel. The 'shock' method is not for the inexperienced. You can suck too much in and do damage.

The PRI-G is more concentrated and is sold as a fuel stablizer as well as having de-carbonizing properties. Not sure how comparable it is to Yamaha Ring Free Plus.

I did have quite a bit of carbon build up on my pistons and cylinder head when my CCT failed at 82K. I only use premium gas. :question: I should probably use a more regular treatment of one of the products I listed above and/or Techron now and then as well. My FJR also suffered a lot of carbon build up by 100k. Not enough to freeze a valve, which sounds more like a guide issue to me, but I don't know what other things might cause that failure.

@amoller - I understand. It's difficult to describe sounds, especially ones you only hear briefly. A seized valve can be caused by various issues, some mechanical, like alignment issues, others more subtle and user caused. Here is an article that covers some common issues, to give you some ideas. http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar1192.htm

The shop should have been good enough to check for other issues. While carbon build up on Yamaha engines is common, not to the point of a failure at the mileage you have.

Were you using a noticeable amount of oil between changes?

What interval do you prefer for oil changes?

Filter every time? (Yamaha actually implies every other time, which I find odd)

Are you a steady throttle guy, or a brake in, power out of the turns, wind it out down the on ramp, etc. type of rider?

@DD - I have 80 mph speed limits here, so cruising at 3k isn't going to happen.

Thank you Eric

No noticeable oil consumption. I change it every 5k Miles - oil + filter

I tend to enjoy reving the engine up. Like to get it "happy" That is why I was surprised with the comment surrounding lugging.

I purchased the bike from its original owner wit 16K mile. Only thing I can think of that perhaps during its previous life the bike was not maintained as it should have.

 

[EricV]

Thank you Eric

No noticeable oil consumption. I change it every 5k Miles - oil + filter

I tend to enjoy reving the engine up. Like to get it "happy" That is why I was surprised with the comment surrounding lugging.

I purchased the bike from its original owner wit 16K mile. Only thing I can think of that perhaps during its previous life the bike was not maintained as it should have.

You sound like a pretty normal Yamaha owner. Nothing stands out in what you say as any kind of owner related issue. Makes me wonder about the condition of the valve timing when they took it apart? If you had bent valves and impact marks on pistons, I would suspect CCT issues. OTOH, no impact marks, but still bent valves would discount that and point to abnormal guide/valve stem wear, but if you're still getting 42 mpg and not using oil, that sort of suggests abnormal wear is not and issue, leaving us with carbon build up. WHY you had that carbon build up is a real question, but my experience with Yamaha YES managers is they really don't care why the problem occurred, only if they are going to cover it or not. ::010::

It's worth the peace of mind to just update the CCT now, even with the cost. You'd likely need to do it at the next valve adjustment interval, 26k miles from now, (since they are by default going to have to check/adjust/set the valve clearance now). Sucks that you're getting stuck with the labor costs. The YES managers have gotten a lot tighter over the last few years. Used to be you dealt with someone in Irvine, CA, now it seems to all go back to Michigan and they drag their feet a lot.

 

[Kevhunts]

Not able to answer as to what position the valves froze. Valves did bend. Changed the oil every 5k miles and did not noticed an consumption. On my last long trip I did get an average of 42 mpg

I'm sorry to say but I think your timing chain jumped on startup (like several others have) causing the bent valves and your dealer mis-diagnosed the problem. I have personally opened over a hundred engines and yours did not look like the carbon was excessive. Your valves & guides would have to be really gunked up for a valve to hang open and the hit by a piston. I know you didn't post a pic of the valve ports to confirm this so my best guess is a faulty CCT.

 

[amoller]

You sound like a pretty normal Yamaha owner. Nothing stands out in what you say as any kind of owner related issue. Makes me wonder about the condition of the valve timing when they took it apart? If you had bent valves and impact marks on pistons, I would suspect CCT issues. OTOH, no impact marks, but still bent valves would discount that and point to abnormal guide/valve stem wear, but if you're still getting 42 mpg and not using oil, that sort of suggests abnormal wear is not and issue, leaving us with carbon build up. WHY you had that carbon build up is a real question, but my experience with Yamaha YES managers is they really don't care why the problem occurred, only if they are going to cover it or not. ::010::

It's worth the peace of mind to just update the CCT now, even with the cost. You'd likely need to do it at the next valve adjustment interval, 26k miles from now, (since they are by default going to have to check/adjust/set the valve clearance now). Sucks that you're getting stuck with the labor costs. The YES managers have gotten a lot tighter over the last few years. Used to be you dealt with someone in Irvine, CA, now it seems to all go back to Michigan and they drag their feet a lot.

My YES manager was/is here in Atlanta

Considering to perhaps and upgrade it to a new ES model...I need to convince myself to justify the "need" to upgrade it. My YES manager was/is located right here in Atlanta

 

[SilverBullet]

Pictures etc were provided by the dealer to Yamaha to make the final determination. Almost like a case of the doctor prescribing you a medication but someone from the insurance company decide what is best for you recommending an alternative.

Since apparently photo documented well
I would insist to see the photo showing correct timing. If no photo I would try and speak directly with the mechanic that removed the head. If he admits not checking then your case pushes back to YES or dealer gives free labor to close since YES already giving free parts. But if dealer lies to cover their ass you're screwed. YES can only determine based on facts presented to them. Bad data in, bad decision out.

Did you have any prior CCT related noise happening at cold startup?

_

 

[EricV]

Weird that your YES manager was in Atlanta. Regional Reps can make decisions on YES claims. In my case, I live in the back desert of no where and the Regional rep had just passed thru before my bike went to the shop. I was stuck with the shop shipping parts to MI for the asshat there to leave on his office floor for weeks before looking at them.

Go ride a new Super Tenere. The Gen II bikes have a different flavor than the Gen I bikes. Smoother, you get CC standard, different dash, adjustable windscreen and some other items. Some people love them, others claim they don't have any "character". I've not ridden one. I don't dare, no money to buy a new one and just dropped $3k on new suspension for my '12.

If you like the new one, just do it. No bad blood between you and the '12 and you can just ride the bike and not wonder if something will happen again. Hopefully the dealer will give you some love and a decent trade in on the '12, considering they didn't get you YES coverage.

 

[OldRider]

If you had bent valves and impact marks on pistons, I would suspect CCT issues. OTOH, no impact marks, but still bent valves would discount that and point to abnormal guide/valve stem wear,

What else would bend the valve besides hitting the piston?