Will you take the vaccine

[Wallkeeper]

MAK 10.....no vaccine is 100%. According to the published data, the vaccine does provide resistance in varying degrees to recipients. The range of resistance has been showing everything from full immunity to shortened duration and lighter symptoms with full hospitalization being rare. A telling statistic is the ICU population being disproportionately represented by the unvaccinated.

As I read the numbers Redger posted, I am looking at the per 100K/Week number. There is a definite correlation between degree of vaccination and the risk of infection and hospitalization. While I am not privy with the data collection protocols, the data as supplied supports that the general population resistance is greater for the partially vaccinated and highest for the fully vaccinated

To misquote a TV line out of context "RESISTANCE IS NOT FUTILE"

What is worrisome to me is the longer it takes us to get to the critical population resistance the greater the chances the Virus will mutate into something that the vaccine can no longer address. Polio never had that chance.

 

[Sierra1]

Another issue with covid is that there's that "gestation" period. Where you have it, but can't get an accurate pos/neg result. And, you keep on as normal. . . .but, you're spreading it around. But, y'all are right about the longer people go unvaccinated, the longer it's gonna be around. Think back when the vaccine first started getting deployed, cases & deaths started dropping. Then the mutation(s), and the unvaccinated spreading them around.

If people embrace this vaccine, like we did "way back when", I think it would be gone by now. Of course, polio, smallpox, measles, etc weren't engineered either.

 

[Mak10]

Polio was only 1st identified in 1894. It ravaged and had outbreaks for 75 years after it was identified. It’s had lots of chances. Google the history of polio.

The fallacy and fear that has gripped the world is that “if” we get enough people vaccinated against Covid 19 it will disappear. This has pitted family against family, neighbor against neighbors and politicians against politicians.

Your overlooking the fact that people that have been vaccinated are still hosts to the virus. It’s still there, still viable and can still mutate.

The virus is out of the lab. If the vaccine helps alleviate symptoms or severity of the sickness, great. A smoking gun it is not.

I would like to see some hard data as what breakthrough cases had which vaccine. How long after the vaccine, and how many breakthrough cases of someone who was infected, and reinfected.

Big Pharma has made Billions out of this. They have yours and mines best interest at heart, right? Just don’t think about opioids. Just follow the money. Billions

 

[WJBertrand]

The probability theory works, IF the vaccine kept one from being a host.

But now we are being told, that vaccinated people are both hosts and carriers of the virus. This doesn’t work, stopping the mutation. Maybe it helps with the severity of Covid if you are infected.

Looking at the numbers Redger posted, the case load looks better for the folks who only had one vaccine. Just the bottom numbers don’t add up.

Please show me where Covid is more “infectious” than smallpox for example?

How do we know that the Delta variant is much more contagious than before? Do the people getting tested now get told what strain or variety they are infected with? I’m guessing not.
We all want a fast easy fix, it’s not looking fast or easy.

Given that breakthrough infections are much more rare than infections in the unvaccinated population, and again employing the odds of mutation logic, breakthrough infections are probably not a significant source of new mutants. Also, breakthrough infections tend to be much milder than those in the unvaccinated, so it’s likely the viral load is significantly lower among the vaccinated that suffer an infection, another odds reducing mechanism.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Checkswrecks]

Given that breakthrough infections are much more rare than infections in the unvaccinated population, and again employing the odds of mutation logic, breakthrough infections are probably not a significant source of new mutants. Also, breakthrough infections tend to be much milder than those in the unvaccinated, so it’s likely the viral load is significantly lower among the vaccinated that suffer an infection, another odds reducing mechanism.

WJ beat me to typing this.

Agree that the break through cases in the vaxed population are a REALLY small percentage. Plus, the vaxed people getting any strain are no longer the ones filling hospital beds and dying unless they are pretty darned frail already. The chart below shows this pretty clearly.

The other notable thing about the chart above is that the big gray portion is the smaller and smaller part of the population who have not been vaccinated, since we're now close to only 30% unvaxed as shown below.

Something I've been reading about and even known two people who had happen, are those who got COVID, thought they didn't need a shot, then got it a second time.
As my brother would say, sucks to be them. But look at that big gray area in the first chart and it's pretty easy to guess which group the mutations are happening in.

 

[Wallkeeper]

WJ beat me to typing this.

Agree with Mak10 that nothing is 100% and there are break through cases. But looking at the numbers of vaxed vs unvaxed, the break through cases in the vaxed population are a REALLY small percentage. Plus, the vaxed people getting any strain are no longer the ones filling hospital beds and dying unless they are pretty darned frail already.

Mak10 asked about how the Delta is known to be more contagious and I believe that came from the rate of infection spreading in the unvaxed population but don't have time right now to Google it. Feel free to do so and post the results if you can.

The argument about Delta being more contagious than the original is straight forward. It has out competed the original version and steadily become a larger percentage of the Covid infections in the population. It is more successful spreading itself and that can only be if it is more contagious in some manner such as

1. longer viability outside of a host
2. less susceptible to environmental conditions
a. temp
b. humidity
c. various toxins ( alcohols, amines, etc)
3. not as susceptible to host antibodies

The list goes on.....it is the Charles Atlas Covid version of the Wimpy Covid original.

 

[Sierra1]

Opinion: had everybody received the vaccine(s) when they became available, it would likely be gone. I'm now beginning to think that after this last surge, you're either vaccinated, or you've had the virus. Either way, everybody is going to have antibodies. Some more than others, and that's where the breakthrough cases come from.

Opinion: if politics hadn't gotten involved, everybody would have been vaccinated, and the virus would be a footnote in history. Well that didn't happen, and it's going to be around for awhile. I plan on getting my booster whenever they decide it should be given, along with my flu shot, and continue on with my boring little life.

 

[WJBertrand]

Opinion: if politics hadn't gotten involved, everybody would have been vaccinated, and the virus would be a footnote in history.

Ideally that would have been case, but it would have had to happen world wide. Besides politics there were the initial vaccine supply issues. Recall that the Delta variant was first seen in India, a country where vaccinations lagged behind China, Japan, North America and Europe. Tight travel shutdowns might have contained it but doing that gets really political. My thinking is we'll probably need a new vaccine tailored to the known variants before this is tamped down and the pandemic label can be dropped. The boosters will help span the gap until they are available.

 

[Wallkeeper]

Ideally that would have been case, but it would have had to happen world wide. Besides politics there were the initial vaccine supply issues. Recall that the Delta variant was first seen in India, a country where vaccinations lagged behind China, Japan, North America and Europe. Tight travel shutdowns might have contained it but doing that gets really political. My thinking is we'll probably need a new vaccine tailored to the known variants before this is tamped down and the pandemic label can be dropped. The boosters will help span the gap until they are available.

More likely than not I think. It is impressive and surprising how robust the current vaccines are in resisting the variants. Very different approach from the weakened/dead virus approach. Faster to market and I expect over the long term, much safer.

 

[jbrown]

It seems like some people are expecting simple two state answers to a complicated situation. It's clear to me that we're better off with more people vaxed. It's clear to me that the vaccines are not perfect. It's not clear to me that everyone will get the virus eventually.

BTW, I got the booster and regular flu shot today, with no side effects at all.

 

[Mak10]

Please, show me where vaccinated people have a lesser viral load.

 

[Sierra1]

Please, show me where vaccinated people have a lesser viral load.

This is what I found. Not sure I understand it.


Viral load and COVID-19
Most of the previous research on viral loads has focused on HIV, partly because it is a close link to the disease progression and because HIV is one of the highest-profile viral infections. Recent research efforts have focused on COVID-19 and the viral load of SARS-CoV-2, but this research is still new.

The causative virus of COVID-19 is closely related to SARS-CoV, which caused an epidemic in the early 2000s. SARS-CoV viral loads grew from initially modest viral loads in the respiratory tracts. In contrast to this, SARS-CoV-2 viral loads appear to be higher in the nose than in the throat.

Research on the SARS-CoV virus also showed that viral loads peaked 10-14 days after symptoms first appeared. In SARS-CoV-2, the highest viral load appears to be earlier, within the first week of symptom onset.

This is more consistent with the pattern seen in influenza, rather than SARS-CoV. This also implies that the potential for transmission is high early on in the infection of SARS-CoV-2, which has serious implications for disease spread management.

Viral loads in COVID-19 patients have also been found in asymptomatic patients. These have been similar to those of symptomatic patients, which suggests they have a similar ability to transmit the infection. It has been shown that asymptomatic individuals can pass on the disease, which is part of what has made COVID-19 so easily transmissible.

More data and a better understanding of how viral load correlates with a culture-viable virus are needed to further determine transmission dynamics and advise screening practices.

 

[Wallkeeper]

Please, show me where vaccinated people have a lesser viral load.

I don't know that anyone has been able to develop a controlled experiment to establish the data you are asking about. Not sure they can without deliberately infecting people with the virus. What we do know is the outcomes of vaccinated vs non-vaccinated. That data appears to be very clear.

 

[Wallkeeper]

Mak10 said:
Please, show me where vaccinated people have a lesser viral load.



From the March edition of Nature Medicine

Initial report of decreased SARS-CoV-2 viral load after inoculation with the BNT162b2 vaccine - Nature Medicine

Breakthrough infections of SARS-CoV-2 occurring 12 or more days after the first dose of the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine were associated with lower viral loads than those found in unvaccinated individuals, suggesting that the vaccine might reduce infectiousness.

www.nature.com

This is not a controlled experiment and the authors are very careful to note the short comings of the information available. If you read the full article, it is interesting and in my amateur opinion, well done in the data analysis for what was available. I encourage you to read the full article. I pulled the following excerpt.


"The results show that infections occurring 12 d or longer after vaccination have significantly reduced viral loads at the time of testing, potentially affecting viral shedding and contagiousness as well as the severity of the disease13. This report is based on an observational study, not a randomized controlled trial, and has several associated limitations. First, the group of vaccinees might differ from the demographically matched control group in ways that could affect the observed viral load, such as behavior, tendency to get tested and general health status. Second, the different viral variants, which could be associated with different viral loads, might affect different parts of the population. Third, by including only the first positive test for each patient, we attempted to minimize the effect of long-term, low-viral-load infections, but it is still possible that the association we observed, especially in the early post-vaccination days, reflects infections lasting from pre-immunization transmission events9,10,11,12. The average viral load might, therefore, continue to change in longer post-vaccination times, when infections are more strongly enriched for post-immunization transmissions, or due to change in vaccinee behavior, especially upon obtaining a vaccination certificate. Fourth, given that vaccines prevent symptomatic disease, post-vaccination tests might be enriched for cases of asymptomatic carriage characterized by lower viral load, although we note that the association of vaccination with low viral load remains even when adjusting for symptomatic disease (Extended Data Fig. 7). Finally, the oro-nasopharyngeal test does not distinguish the viral load in the nose from the one in the oral cavity and does not account for virus viability, which would be a better measure of potential infectiousness. Moreover, the infectious dose of SARS-CoV-2 in humans is presently unknown."

I should have realized that the conditions the Israeli's agreed to for early access would have generated a study of this nature.

Also note the date. This is rather early on so we do not know about the effect after time

 

[Don T]

So I’m confused, is this a “vaccine “ or something else like a Flu “shot”?

it seems convenient to blame the ineffectiveness of the original “shot” on a new XYZ variant. I can’t seem to find where any Covid tests tell what strain it is if positive.

We were told to get the shot so that it would stop the “mutation” of new strains.

Then it changed to “you can still be infected and carry the virus but you won’t get AS sick”.

Breakthrough cases are common, and if the vaccine doesn’t work, it is so easy to blame a new ABC strain that is 100 x more contagious than the last strain.

And I’ve had both Phizer shots. So I’m not anti vax.

I’m skeptical, we think we’re so smart and have the science down. And the public hoards toilet paper during a pandemic.

We don’t have herd immunity, we have herd mentality.

You can delete this post as well, as seems to be the case with any others that question the crusade of the vaccine or shot or booster or emperors new clothes.

From where I stand the vaccine works well.

I'm one of approximately 3500 paramedics here in Denmark.
Last year several of us was down with Covid at any given time.
In January all of us got the Pfizer shots.
Since then not a single paramedic have tested positive with Corona virus.

In general people have been positive about the vaccines here in Denmark. 87 % of the population have had both shots and we are now starting round 3.

As a result we now don't have any restrictions - non what so ever - and even though people attend sport events, concerts etc as never before, the virus is well in hand with few new cases each day and the hospitals have resumed normal practice.

 

[Sierra1]

That's how it should be. The doses are available, why are we not dispensing them? Politics.

 

[magic]

From where I stand the vaccine works well.

I'm one of approximately 3500 paramedics here in Denmark.
Last year several of us was down with Covid at any given time.
In January all of us got the Pfizer shots.
Since then not a single paramedic have tested positive with Corona virus.

In general people have been positive about the vaccines here in Denmark. 87 % of the population have had both shots and we are now starting round 3.

As a result we now don't have any restrictions - non what so ever - and even though people attend sport events, concerts etc as never before, the virus is well in hand with few new cases each day and the hospitals have resumed normal practice.

Congratulations to you and the people of Denmark. You are showing the rest of the world how to defeat Covid and get back to normal. All the charts and graphs clearly show what we need to do. I tend to look at the bottom line and the following "here and now" facts.

>The hospitals are full of unvaccinated Covid patients. There are 7 main hospitals in my area. Their ICU beds were at 93% capacity yesterday. All were unvaccinated Covid patients.
>The area schools that have mask mandates are open with in person learning. Those with no mask mandate or a mask optional policy are closed due to hundreds of infections. Yet, parents continue to protest.
>Wisconsin is averaging 2500 new cases daily and 16 deaths. (7 day average)
>A Wisconsin state senator was just released from an area hospital after spending a month on a ventilator. He was a rather outspoken anti mask anti vax advocate. He is 40 years old with 6 kids. His wife issued a statement encouraging people to consider getting vaccinated. Ironic how the healthcare system he condemned had to save his life.
>An area police officer died recently from Covid. He was 26 years old. His second child was born the day before he died.
>The US is closing in on 700,000 deaths.
>Here in Wisconsin the vaccine is readily available yet only about 55% are vaccinated.

As I see it, we have 3 weapons to use in this fight, masks, social distancing and the vaccine...that's all we have. I have not seen or heard of anyone's plan "B". I will gladly get my booster shot as soon as I am eligible and the Moderna is available.

 

[OldRider]

Without Facebook this virus would probably already be gone. Too many people are getting their medical advice from Dr. Facebook.

 

[Wallkeeper]

Without Facebook this virus would probably already be gone. Too many people are getting their medical advice from Dr. Facebook.

Facebook, Twitter et. al.- It does give pause to make me wonder about its impact on recent history in general. Is it parallel to what we saw with Pulitzer and Hearst at the end of the gilded age? If so, is it comparatively hyper velocity? More chaotic? Less?

Do not mean to wander off topic here....."point of order Mr. Chairman!" *L*

 

[SilverBullet]

Without Facebook this virus would probably already be gone. Too many people are getting their medical advice from Dr. Facebook.

New meaning for the term "shit science".
Lol