Two line Front Brake kit

[EricV]

Ok, for the moment this is in Modifications. I am working on a kit to remove the silly cross over the fender brake line and replace both front rubber lines with two stainless steel braided, plastic sleeved, teflon inner line, DOT legal brake lines with steel fittings. When the kits are ready, I'll start a thread in big or little pimping. Full disclosure, I am working on a DBA, business license and tax certificate so I can be a real vendor. Right now, this is progress reports and interest querries. If you like what you see, post up and let me know. If we get some volume interest, the price can go down.

Right now I have a set of brake lines on the ST that are as follows: Clear coated, SS lines with black anodized inserts and steel fittings at the ends. This two line kit replaces your stock lines from the junction under the forks to the brake calipers. A three way steel junction block with a 8mm mounting hole ties into the stock hard lines and mounts as the original equipment junction block did with the same single bolt.

From that three way junction block, (the round fitting in the pictures), two lines come forward to the OE bracket, then go off to each caliper, maintaining the original clips and brackets. The clutch side line is the same exact length as the OE line, the throttle side line is 1" longer to allow it to go over to the side, through the OE bracket, then off to the caliper on the throttle side.

My intention is to order a stock Yamaha bracket for the brake line to the fender bolt, and a stock short banjo bolt so that the kit will use stock Yamaha hardware.

The kits will both eliminate the cross over line, and raise the fender 1" for more mud clearance. Included in the kit will be the following items:

(1) three way junction block with mounting hole.
(1) clutch side SS braided brake line, (available in clear, red or blue plastic coating, with black, red or blue inserts at the fittings).
(1) Throttle side SS braided brake line w/90º fitting, (also available in the above color options).
(1) Short banjo bolt to replace the long one that goes thru two lines on the clutch side with the stock set up.
(1) Brake line bracket, same as the clutch side, to secure the new throttle side line so it won't rub on the fender.
(4) new brake line washers. You can re-use the stock ones, but using new ones reduces the potential for leaks. These are $0.43 EACH. :'(
A set of (4) aluminum adapters to raise the fender 1".

The major cost is the brake lines and fittings. Colors do not add cost, all color options are the same.

The inserts are because the fittings are sized for rubber brake lines. With the smaller SS lines, an insert is necessary to crimp on the smaller line. This insert is available in colors, black, red, blue for now. A no cost option.

Right now, I'm paying $106 for the brake lines and fittings. If I can order some volume, I can get the price down a bit. This does not include the Yamaha parts. I'm not trying to make a killing here, just provide a fix for the bike so we can all enjoy it with less worries and take it where ever we want. Shipping will be actual costs, not inflated or fixed. Probably just a bubble pack envelope mailer.

Projected sale price is $120-$130, but I'd love to drop that down. If I get my business license going, I can eliminate the sales tax on what I purchase and pass that savings on to out of state buyers. In state still get hosed, as usual. No matter what, I'm probably not going to get a break from Yamaha on the OE banjo bolt and bracket.

First pic, note the stock line next to the clutch side line, they are the same length to allow for full travel on the forks!

Second pic just shows the assembly a bit better.

Third pic shows the round steel junction block with the mounting hole. The OE line will go in opposite the 90º bend line.

Forth pic shows the assembly mounted under the bike.

Fifth pic shows lines from the front, routing like the original lines. Note that I have used some fuel line at the clamping points. I hope to have this on the finished product so the clamps have something to clamp on, rather than the new SS lines just going thru them.

Sixth pic shows the clutch side line going to the caliper. Note that it follows the stock path, and that the ABS sensor line is still clipped to it and following the stock path.

Seventh pic is showing the throttle side line. This is coming from the under the fork junction block now and allows raising or full removal of the fender in serious mud conditions, (or calcium chloride in Alaska), so packing will be less of an issue. And a broken fender will not cause a F800GS Endo!!

FYI - I priced stock like rubber brake lines to see if that could be a lower cost option and it lowers the price by only $10-15, so I am not going to offer it. Also, Do NOT think that this kit will firm up your brake lever like a full race SS line kit will. It will feel the same as stock. Even the $300 Galfer full SS line kit, (which still doesn't eliminate the cross over line), will not feel like that rock hard race kit since we have a ABS block in our system. It may be better, or may not, but don't count on it.

This two line front brake kit is about allowing you to raise or remove the fender and preventing problems when running in mud and avoid fender packing. More durable, less worries, lets you decide remove or raise the fender w/o issues in the field or at home.

 

[markjenn]

Nice work. Pricing sounds about right. I like how you're getting all the details right - it is a PITA with many mods to have to fiddle getting the details right.

Personally, I'd prefer rubber lines for a more stock appearance and because, as you say, I don't think SS braided buys you enough in this application for the cost, but I understand some folks want the more trick look.

Unclear how you plan on raising the fender. I'd leave that optional - some may not want the raised look and removing the fender when the going gets rough is always an option for those where fender-challenged conditions are infrequent.

Have you thought about producing a variant of this kit for the F800GS? This is the bike has a demonstrated catastrophic failure mode due to the crossover design (for the S10, the problem is more theoretical) as well as a much larger installed base of bikes in the field.

- Mark

 

[JonnyCinco]

They say SS lines to not expand as much as stock rubber. I use SS on the racebike and could tell the difference after a long day of practice sessions. however, I would want a complete 2 line system with no junction and prefer black color coated.

Side note: what is the point of going SS if you are going to use the OEM rubber from MC to junction?

like the idea of raising the fender...will be watching this

 

[EricV]

Nice work. Pricing sounds about right. I like how you're getting all the details right - it is a PITA with many mods to have to fiddle getting the details right.

Personally, I'd prefer rubber lines for a more stock appearance and because, as you say, I don't think SS braided buys you enough in this application for the cost, but I understand some folks want the more trick look.

Unclear how you plan on raising the fender. I'd leave that optional - some may not want the raised look and removing the fender when the going gets rough is always an option for those where fender-challenged conditions are infrequent.

Have you thought about producing a variant of this kit for the F800GS? This is the bike has a demonstrated catastrophic failure mode due to the crossover design (for the S10, the problem is more theoretical) as well as a much larger installed base of bikes in the field.

- Mark

I understand about the rubber lines. I originally intended to offer that, but the price is so minimally different that it seems not worth the effort and hassle, but I am listening to input.

Likely yes, a variant for the F800 will be available. However, there is a GB in progress on the GS list already, so not wanting to step on that. But more is always better for pricing.

 

[EricV]

They say SS lines to not expand as much as stock rubber. I use SS on the racebike and could tell the difference after a long day of practice sessions. however, I would want a complete 2 line system with no junction and prefer black color coated.

Side note: what is the point of going SS if you are going to use the OEM rubber from MC to junction?

like the idea of raising the fender...will be watching this

The SS is more for durability at this point. A full SS kit is currently available from Galfer for $300 USD. But not with a two line front kit.

The SS starts at the steel oem line and moves forward. Rubber lines are still at the ABS block and rear brake.

Still working on the fender raise, which could be a separate offering or optional addition. Pretty strait forward with four aluminum spacers. Pics on this when I have something to show.

 

[cosmic]

They say SS lines to not expand as much as stock rubber. I use SS on the racebike and could tell the difference after a long day of practice sessions. however, I would want a complete 2 line system with no junction and prefer black color coated.

Side note: what is the point of going SS if you are going to use the OEM rubber from MC to junction?

You're apsolutely right. There is no sense leaving any rubber hoses, coz there will be no difference in feel, like we don't feel that oe steel junction. My T-max has the same callipers as s10, and by changing the hoses + fitting Brembo SA brake pads, the difference was huuuuge...straight away. When the guys from T-Max club gave it a try, they could not belive the difference. Some even said, it become too agressive for the slippery city pavement.
So, i dunno how is this going to work off road, but on the road is amazing. I had Galfer kit on my TDM & Gixxer. Not the best kit around. Installed also one on Tmax. It was like fitting lego's. Combination of ss and oe steel line. Bs. I replaced it with Frentubo ss lines. Straight line form top to bottom + rear one piece ss line. Cca 150$.
They don't offer kot for s10...yet.
I'am in for the kit, but full SS, excluding any oe junctions.


©

 

[Brntrt]

Good work, looking forward to your next step. I'm planning on mounting a high fender on Miss Piggy. My only question is would the brake side be long enough to loop over a fender right below the lower triple tree?

From your pix it looks possible with an attachment near the horn.


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Mark

 

[EricV]

Good work, looking forward to your next step. I'm planning on mounting a high fender on Miss Piggy. My only question is would the brake side be long enough to loop over a fender right below the lower triple tree?

From your pix it looks possible with an attachment near the horn.


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Mark

The attachment at the horn is where the stock bracket for the brake line and ABS sensor wire are located. I re-use that, but you don't have to run both lines through the bracket if you're going to do a high fender. You could run the clutch side line through the bracket, along with the ABS sensor wire, then run the other one to the throttle side out of the bracket. It would be advisable to secure it somehow for strain relief if you did this, but I don't see why it wouldn't work fine. The lines should be long enough as is, but if you gave me some measurements of where your fender was going to be mounted, I could add some length to the lines, if needed, for your set.

 

[colorider]

Looks darn good Eric! I'll be watching this thread for sure!!!

Rod

 

[EricV]

A couple more comments to the great feed back so far.

I can do rubber line kits. Not a big deal, just different hose. One aspect of the rubber line kit that I don't like is that the OE lines have a protective sheathing on them to avoid damage from debris. I can't offer that at the moment. That may mean that a rubber line kit would be more susceptible to damage that either the stock lines or SS braid. I can get some black SS line ordered in if there is enough demand.

@JonnyCinco - I understand what you mean about a full two line kit. You're talking about the kits you see that run from the master cylinder to the calipers. This is not possible for the ST due to our ABS system. The ABS block is in between the master cylinder and the caliper.

@Cosmic - I don't think there is a market for a kit that eliminates all the factory lines, both steel and rubber. Mostly due to the cost and it's a real headache to do that kind of install with an ABS block in the system. 9 lines and there is no real good reason to replace the factory steel lines other than fewer junctions. The steel doesn't expand any more than the SS braid.

 

[stevepsd]

I personally would like the option to also replace the brake line from the master cylinder with a SS line.

 

[JonnyCinco]

@JonnyCinco - I understand what you mean about a full two line kit. You're talking about the kits you see that run from the master cylinder to the calipers. This is not possible for the ST due to our ABS system. The ABS block is in between the master cylinder and the caliper.

huh....didnt know that

 

[Brntrt]

A couple more comments to the great feed back so far.

I can do rubber line kits. Not a big deal, just different hose. One aspect of the rubber line kit that I don't like is that the OE lines have a protective sheathing on them to avoid damage from debris. I can't offer that at the moment. That may mean that a rubber line kit would be more susceptible to damage that either the stock lines or SS braid. I can get some black SS line ordered in if there is enough demand.

I was originally thought black rubber was the way to go. The high fender definitely will expose the hoses to debris. Will the SS sheathed provide adequate protection?


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Mark

 

[HoebSTer]

Eric,

Isn't there a reason for the cross-over line up front? I thought it had to do with proportioning and the Linked Braking we have on this bike. Is this in conjunction with them saying to perform a proper sequence of bleeding due to this? Curious????

Thanks

 

[markjenn]

Isn't there a reason for the cross-over line up front? I thought it had to do with proportioning and the Linked Braking we have on this bike. Is this in conjunction with them saying to perform a proper sequence of bleeding due to this? Curious????

I think crossovers are done to get a cleaner look up front - only one line running from the steering head down. May save slightly on weight/costs too.

I've seen talk on forums that perhaps swapping stiffer lines or changing the total line volume might mess up the ABS system by changing pressure propagation characteristics through the system, but sounds far-fetched to me and there have been a ton of ABS bikes modified with different lines so pretty good installed based without problems. Like you say, LBS is a system of proportioning pressure front to rear and I don't see a mechanism where this change would affect this.

- Mark

 

[GrahamD]

...replace both front rubber lines with two stainless steel braided, plastic sleeved, teflon inner line, DOT legal brake lines with steel fittings.

Well firstly, If you are going into business with these, I would be coming up with some kind of acronym for these.

That there is going to cost you big bucks for print space.

Now I will read the rest of the post and consider saying something useful.

 

[GrahamD]

I've seen talk on forums that perhaps swapping stiffer lines or changing the total line volume might mess up the ABS system by changing pressure propagation characteristics through the system, but sounds far-fetched to me....

- Mark

Have to agree with that one. The whole point of having fluids is the non compression and the propagation times are around 1500m per second. Or about 600u/s for the length of hose. Thinner lines won't change the speed in theory only the "weight" of fluid being compressed or shifted. My guess is the increased "drag" on the smaller diameter hose may have a bigger influence, assuming there is much internal change, and the stiffer lining would make for a more "perfect" transfer preventing the lines volume increasing with pressure to as large an extent.

I think the placebo effect would be magnitudes greater, regards the "propagation " times.

Anyway Eric, now I have read the post, I say it looks sweet.

But just in case...Test test test.

Cheers
Graham

 

[cosmic]

Eric,

Isn't there a reason for the cross-over line up front? I thought it had to do with proportioning and the Linked Braking we have on this bike. Is this in conjunction with them saying to perform a proper sequence of bleeding due to this? Curious????

Thanks

No reason at all. Both ABS and non ABS T-max have it. I took it away and replaced it with two full lines.
I DON'T have the abs version, so i didn't have any issues with that.
I'll definitely check with a local guy who made tons of custom SS lines using Goodridge lines, and come back with some useful info.

@Eric
I don't mind oem steel tubes as long as i take off all of the rubber ones.
Oh, i would like the red ones.


©

 

[EricV]

I was originally thought black rubber was the way to go. The high fender definitely will expose the hoses to debris. Will the SS sheathed provide adequate protection?

I believe so. The SS braid is very durable and far less susceptible to damage. The inner teflon hose carries the brake fluid and the outer SS braid, with an additional sheath of plastic is exceptionally strong, but with the plastic sheath, won't saw through items it contacts. My hope is that with the included brackets, there will be no rubbing issues on the new line kit and it will provide protection of the lines, and less potential for the type of catastrophic failure and crash that we have recently seen on the F800GS. Even if we encounter debris and brush, the SS line can take it and at worst, we lose or remove the fender and still have no issues with the potential for catching debris with the brake lines since they will now be off to the sides, not right over the tire in the area of debris toss.

In looking at a new F800GS today I was appalled at the not one, but two lines that cross over the fender. One with out any real reason to do so. Impressed that they are SS braid from the factory, but I just can't see why they crossed over twice to still do the same slave cross over low on the fender.

 

[EricV]

Have to agree with that one. The whole point of having fluids is the non compression and the propagation times are around 1500m per second. Or about 600u/s for the length of hose. Thinner lines won't change the speed in theory only the "weight" of fluid being compressed or shifted. My guess is the increased "drag" on the smaller diameter hose may have a bigger influence, assuming there is much internal change, and the stiffer lining would make for a more "perfect" transfer preventing the lines volume increasing with pressure to as large an extent.

I think the placebo effect would be magnitudes greater, regards the "propagation " times.

Anyway Eric, now I have read the post, I say it looks sweet.

But just in case...Test test test.

Cheers
Graham

Exactly! The whole point of brake fluid, like most hydraulic fluids, is that it does not compress. That lack of compression is why brakes work so well, it's essentially like a solid from the lever to the caliper. The compression we mostly feel is from the rubber lines expanding, not from fluid dynamics. There is an additional factor in ABS systems in the hydraulic valve in the ABS block that needs to have movement to function. Because of this, and partly the sheer volume of lines, that rock hard feel is seldom possible with an ABS system, even with all steel and SS braided lines. The valve need some 'give' to function. That allows it to be more than just an on/off switch.

FWIW, the inside diameter, (I.D.) of the SS braid is comparable to the OE rubber line. The rubber lines are larger in the Outside Diameter, O.D.) because the rubber is not as strong or durable as the SS braid. Therefore the volume of the system remains essentially the same. The cross over line has more to do with manufacturing costs than any real usefulness or function. Because hydraulic fluid, (brake fluid), does not compress, actual volume is not really a factor, but as Graham notes, viscosity can be. We are still using the same brake fluid as recommended, so no worries there. While I concede that there is potential for experimentation with various fluid densities, I honestly don't think most of us would be able to tell the difference, especially on the street.