tip sensor - bike won't start

[EricV]

My Triumph Tiger uses OBD II with the standard OBD II connector under the seat. In fact my car code reader works on it just fine! I wish the bike mfg's would standardize.

WOW, just WOW. ??? What a great idea. I had no idea.

 

[stevepsd]

Do you have a CA or 49 States model?

All Tiger 1050's have OBD II, both 49 state and CA versions.

 

[3putt]

Yep, still have my reader, but not the Tiger1050.

A link to the diag mode and error codes: http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=2720.msg46598#msg46598

 

[Jgillary]

bike won't start

I just retuned from a 10,000 mile trip and no problems. Washed my bike, drove it into the garage and next 4 days NO-START. Put bike on a charger. A week later opened throttle all the way and kept trying. Noticed faint firings but still no-start. Opened gas tank hatch, jostled bike, closed hatch, opened throttle and tried again AND THE ENGINE CRANKED TO LIFE. I am concerned that the cause is still unknown.

 

[EricV]

Re: bike won't start

I just retuned from a 10,000 mile trip and no problems. Washed my bike, drove it into the garage and next 4 days NO-START. Put bike on a charger. A week later opened throttle all the way and kept trying. Noticed faint firings but still no-start. Opened gas tank hatch, jostled bike, closed hatch, opened throttle and tried again AND THE ENGINE CRANKED TO LIFE. I am concerned that the cause is still unknown.

The cause is not unknown. You washed the bike, then fired it up and rode it into the garage, shutting it down before the full warm up routine finished. The next time you attempted to start the bike, it flooded. It's the single most common cause of a hard start occurrence, not letting the bike fully warm up before shutting it down, then coming back several hours to several days later and trying to start it up.

So, don't wash the bike.

Or, next time just push it into the garage, or go for a short ride to fully warm up the bike before shutting it down.

 

[markjenn]

Re: bike won't start

The cause is not unknown.

Aborted warmups and washing are contributing factors, but I wouldn't call them the "cause" because we've had lots of non-starts incidents when these factors are not involved. And we still don't have the slightest idea what is happening in the motor that is truly the root cause of why it is flooding.

- Mark

 

[EricV]

Re: bike won't start

Aborted warmups and washing are contributing factors, but I wouldn't call them the "cause" because we've had lots of non-starts incidents when these factors are not involved. And we still don't have the slightest idea what is happening in the motor that is truly the root cause of why it is flooding.

- Mark

You've not been listening Mark. It's an over-rich condition created by the cold start software for the ECU.

Bottom line remains the same, you don't need to know what's happening, you need to know what not to do to create the condition, which has been stated many times. The washing is incidental. It's the short duration start and park that is the most common cause. i.e. incomplete cold start process that is re-initiated on the next start up and floods the engine, making it a hard start.

 

[markjenn]

Re: bike won't start

You've not been listening Mark. It's an over-rich condition created by the cold start software for the ECU.

I've been listening just fine, thank you, and I don't think we have the slightest idea of the root cause.

- Mark

 

[EricV]

Re: bike won't start

I've been listening just fine, thank you, and I don't think we have the slightest idea of the root cause.

Let me try again Mark. The root cause is moot. You can't, and Yamaha will not, change the root cause. Your dealer, and every other dealer will examine any bike with this issue and declare there is no problem with the bike. This will happen every single time. The reason is that they use the Yamaha shop manual and Yamaha resources to determine if a problem exists. No problem exists, it's operating exactly as Yamaha has designed it to.

We know the sequence of events that creates this problem. The simple answer is to not do that.

We know that if you do have a hard start, WOT or nearly so and cranking it will start the bike. Depending on how run down the battery is, it may require a charge of the battery first, but eventually it will start this way.

It's like you're complaining you get wet when you go out in the rain, then declaring that we need to know why it rains and correct that problem.

What you need to do is put on some rain gear or grab the umbrella. And learn how to dry off if you do get wet.

Understanding the preventative measures and what to do if you experience the problem is the only "answer" you will ever get on this issue. Those answers have long ago been given, yet you still proclaim the desire to understand why you get wet when you walk out in the rain. :

 

[bonzer2u]

Re: bike won't start

I just retuned from a 10,000 mile trip and no problems. Washed my bike, drove it into the garage and next 4 days NO-START. Put bike on a charger. A week later opened throttle all the way and kept trying. Noticed faint firings but still no-start. Opened gas tank hatch, jostled bike, closed hatch, opened throttle and tried again AND THE ENGINE CRANKED TO LIFE. I am concerned that the cause is still unknown.

The last sentence sure sounds like fuel vapor lock to me......

 

[EricV]

Re: bike won't start

I just retuned from a 10,000 mile trip and no problems. Washed my bike, drove it into the garage and next 4 days NO-START. Put bike on a charger. A week later opened throttle all the way and kept trying. Noticed faint firings but still no-start. Opened gas tank hatch, jostled bike, closed hatch, opened throttle and tried again AND THE ENGINE CRANKED TO LIFE. I am concerned that the cause is still unknown.

The parts in red are the key issues.

 

[bonzer2u]

A week later opened throttle all the way and kept trying. Noticed faint firings but still no-start. Opened gas tank hatch, jostled bike, closed hatch, opened throttle and tried again AND THE ENGINE CRANKED TO LIFE. I am concerned that the cause is still unknown.

Hmmmmm, he already suggested a WOT without a start until he opened and closed the fuel tank, again would suggest vapor lock.....

I drive my bike into the garage after a wash, aka, a non complete warm-up and never had an issue with restarting later that day or the next.

If I had the issue I might be inclined to check if my tank vent line was blocked/restricted/pinched and if not, the tank fuel delivery setup (which I'm unfamiliar with), but thats just me.

 

[markjenn]

Re: bike won't start

No problem exists, it's operating exactly as Yamaha has designed it to.

You're saying that Yamaha has designed a motorcycle that randomly floods and won't start. And that's how it is supposed to work.

I understand that you're a fan of the motorcycle and that's fine, but to take this sort of behavior and attribute it to operator error is just stupid silly. And let me say it again - I've had the non-start problem three times and didn't wash the bike nor did I not let it warm up completely on the previous start. It just randomly wouldn't start when I wanted to go for a ride.

- Mark

 

[EricV]

Re: bike won't start

You're saying that Yamaha has designed a motorcycle that randomly floods and won't start. And that's how it is supposed to work.

Sorry, but that's just silly.

And you're still getting wet and blaming the rain.

A. It's not random. It never was.

B. They didn't design it to flood and not start, they also didn't design it for you to fire it up and ride 10' and shut it down either. We simply discovered a scenario that they didn't account for in their programing of the software for the system. But it's a folly to expect to get a new ECU or a recall for something like this too. So accept it as an idiosyncrasy and move on. You know what not to do and what to do if it happens. So stop whining about it already and put up the umbrella.

Again, this is nothing new with Yamaha EFI bikes. It's been happening on FJRs all the way back to 2000. Obviously Yamaha didn't spend a lot of time worrying about it or any effort to correct for this scenario.

 

[tc9988]

I frequently start mine cold and need to shut off before it warms up. Never had a starting problem. Why would that be Eric?

 

[markjenn]

Another one for the ignore file.

- Mark

 

[EricV]

I frequently start mine cold and need to shut off before it warms up. Never had a starting problem. Why would that be Eric?

Me too, but I don't let it sit for a couple of days after that either. A commonality that I notice is that this issue occurs much more with people that do the short run, then park the bike and leave it for more than a day. I've had it happen to me when I have done that. I've also had it happen on a really cold day at high altitude when I stalled the bike a couple of times on a steep uphill driveway. It fired right up the first time, but refused to start w/o WOT the second time I killed it.

How about you Elwood? Do you shut down before full warm up, but re-start sometime fairly soon, or days later?

 

[EricV]

Another one for the ignore file.

- Mark

Funny! You can't enter the discussion with anything meaningful, so you'll just stick your head in the sand and not read my posts? No skin off my back, do everyone a favor and limit your posts to topics you have a clue about. You have some really good posts on this forum, just not in this thread.

 

[tc9988]

Me too, but I don't let it sit for a couple of days after that either. A commonality that I notice is that this issue occurs much more with people that do the short run, then park the bike and leave it for more than a day. I've had it happen to me when I have done that. I've also had it happen on a really cold day at high altitude when I stalled the bike a couple of times on a steep uphill driveway. It fired right up the first time, but refused to start w/o WOT the second time I killed it.

How about you Elwood? Do you shut down before full warm up, but re-start sometime fairly soon, or days later?

Sometimes fairly soon, sometimes several days later.

 

[Dallara]

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I don't want to toss in a whole new variable into this, uh... *discussion*...

Nor do I want to hi-jack the thread into heading unnecessary directions, but...

First off, I tend to agree with EricV. The problem does seem to be limited, most often, to some rather specific parameters. I even experienced the "hard start" issue a couple of times early in my Super Tenere ownership, but fortunately each of those two times I got the bike started without exhausting the battery.

That said, there is something else that points toward the "problem" (and I use that word only because some see it as one) being a software issue. You see, ever since I had my ECU re-flashed with the ECUnleashed programming I have *NEVER* experienced the issue. In fact, it has always seemed to start up much easier, with fewer turns of the crank, since the ECUnleashed re-flash.

Now, does that say that the ECUnleashed re-flash *cures* the problem, or that something in their re-flash somehow corrects an issue the stock OEM Yamaha software has? Or does it just say I had gotten so used to avoiding the problem that it hasn't reoccurred?

Honestly, I can't readily answer those questions. All I know is that my bike starts easily all the time, period.

One thing to note here... The ECUnleashed does completely away with the "closed-loop" operation of the Yamaha ECU, and operates entirely "open-loop". In fact, you can completely remove the O2-Lambda sensors without a problem. Who knows, but perhaps this has something to do with why the bike starts so readily with the ECUnleashed re-flash.

Just FYI...

Dallara





p.s. I should also say I am a *HUGE* fan of the ECUnleashed re-flash, and of the shop who did it for me, AF-1 Racing in New Braunfels, TX. It simply makes the bike run better throughout the rev range, eliminates any and all stumbles or drivability hiccups, gives smoother throttle response both getting on and off the throttle, and has a myriad of other positive improvements over stock.


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