Thoughts about bike longevity....

[RCinNC]

Hello all....I have a 2014 Super Tenere (non ES), with just 100 miles shy of 53,000 miles on it. Obviously I ride it a lot, but it hasn't seen anything more "off-roady" than gravel roads (and the Shafer Rim Trail). Everything on the bike is original except for the rear shock, which was replaced last year with a rebuilt 2012 shock by Norwest Suspension. I've done all the maintenance as per the service manual (oil changes, final drive, fork oil replaced, brake fluid flushed and replaced, clutch fluid flushed and replaced, coolant, etc etc). I had the initial valve check done, and I'll be getting the second one done soon.

Big question is, is there any preventative maintenance that should be done on an S10 with this kind of mileage that might not be specifically addressed in the service manual? Things like wheel bearing replacement, CCT, cam chain, etc? I've always been a believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but I do a lot of traveling on this bike, and I'd hate to ruin a trip with a parts failure that could have been averted.

Another more open-ended question would be, what sort of longevity can you expect from this bike, with decent maintenance and not being punished on a lot of off-road riding? I know there are select guys out there with six figures on their odometers, but I doubt that's the norm (for any bike, not just the S10). Is there a time when you look at the odometer and think, "yeah, maybe now is the time to get something newer before the problems start"? It's a good possibility that I'll put 10,000 miles on the bike before this time next year; is 100,000 miles a reasonable goal with good maintenance?

 

[loftybob]

Read all about Long Haul Paul's exploits on his 2 x Super Tenere's, I think he has clocked up a quarter million miles already.

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/paul-pellands-2013-yamaha-super-tenere#page-2

 

[2daMax]

I would consider the abs pump to require some attention. Besides the bleed once every 2 years or 20k km, the pump needs to be actuated to prevent valve jam. I do the actuation every quarter.

I am not sure if the Gen2 or Gen3 CCT requires replacement after X miles. Hope someone can chip in this info.

 

[AVGeek]

You’re definitely at the mileage where a valve check and possible CCT replacement would be prudent.

 

[RCinNC]

That was one of the things I was considering. I've gone back and forth between an OEM CCT and something like a Graves unit, and I tend to lean towards just going with OEM. I have no idea if there's any consensus about replacing the cam chain at a certain point, though doing so at a CCT replacement would be a good time to do it.

 

[Dogdaze]

Hey RC, as you know already, a mechanical failure could occur anytime. It's not about how new it is, it's more about fatigue. You could put a new CCT in and that could fail within 1000 miles, so no garauntees, including frame failure. Having said that, I concur with the previous post, replace the CCT as that is also wear item. Check wheels for stress fracture but as you don't go off road that should not be an issue.
Keeping fuel lines clean of varnish is probably a good idea, not sure the quality of fuel or additives where you are. Rubber caps/ lines also get brittle so keep an eye on those. Otherwise ride.

 

[RCinNC]

That's why I'm surprised that there's no replacement interval specified for things like the CCT or the cam chain; they're wear items*. The same thing happened on my Road King; HD had no inspection interval for the cam chain tensioner in their pre-2006 88 inch Twin Cam, so it wasn't getting checked. Turned out that the Delrin shoes on the spring loaded tensioner were disintegrating. I only knew about it from other guys on an HD forum, and sure enough when I had mine checked, they found bits of orange Delrin in the oil pan. HD replaced the old part with a hydraulic one.

It's true, I could replace a CCT or something and the new one would fail; that's always a possibility. Going by the parts numbers though, the 2014 CCT that was supposed to be a fix for the earlier one has been superseded by yet another part number. I don't know if that's an indication that some problem has been identified with the 2014 model or not, but in any event, replacing it at 50,000 plus miles doesn't seem like a bad idea, especially if I'm having the valve check done anyway.

* I'm talking out of my ass again. They aren't wear items as a wear item would officially be designated. I should have said that they seem like items that would wear out over time, especially the cam chain. But after considering that the cam chain in my '07 Camry (it's a chain, not a belt, thankfully) has no recommended service or replacement interval, it may not be so far fetched to think that the chain can last for the life of the bike.

 

[RIDEMYST]

I’m the original owner of a 2015 with a similar riding history (mainly on road) and closing in on 85,000 miles with no problems.
I change my oil on a regular basis and have all of the fluids flushed at the two year mark. I have not done the valve inspection but other than that I do all recommend maintenance. I do carry a full set of front & rear wheel bearings and seals as I have had problems with past bikes with bearings.....live and learn.
I plan on replacing my Tenere in a year but by that time I should be well over 100K and anticipate no problems. -JEP-


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[SilverBullet]

These bikes will do 100K miles without a worry or missing a beat. At your mileage you have nothing to think about. I haven't heard of a single Gen 2 CCT failure but am also interested in what the expected life of one might be. I have already purchased a new cam chain to install at my next valve check (will be somewhere around ~130K miles). Wasn't even considering replacing my Gen 2 CCT with 90K miles at that time though.

Your other question on longevity...I would say 200K+ miles is a very conservative and reasonable expectation.

 

[HeliMark]

I think this engine is good for the 200K+ mileage also. A number of years ago, on a 2012 bike, they cracked open the engine at 60K miles to see how it was doing. It was still within production specs. Crap can happen, but taking care of the bike like you are, I wouldn't worry.

Not sure with your bike being a Gen 2, on how long the CCT will go. I have the Gen 2 CCT on my Gen 1, and I am not even considering replacing it unless I hear something.

 

[WJBertrand]

Another more open-ended question would be, what sort of longevity can you expect from this bike, with decent maintenance and not being punished on a lot of off-road riding? I know there are select guys out there with six figures on their odometers, but I doubt that's the norm (for any bike, not just the S10). Is there a time when you look at the odometer and think, "yeah, maybe now is the time to get something newer before the problems start"? It's a good possibility that I'll put 10,000 miles on the bike before this time next year; is 100,000 miles a reasonable goal with good maintenance?

Actually I think expecting 100,000+ miles durability is a norm these days, not that many people reach that mileage but almost any modern water cooled bike is more than likely able to reach that landmark without issues given normal maintenance. I reached 150,000 miles each on my Honda ST1100 and ST1300. The 1300 developed an electrical problem or I'd still have it but the engine was sound with compression and leak down numbers meeting requirements for a new motor.

Regarding the CCT, the part that has given trouble in the Gen 1s is the device that applies a load to the chain guide. Sounds like the problem with your Harley was with the plastic material on the chain guide and not the tensioner per se. Replacing the CCT on the Tenere does not replace this guide. Having said that, I've never heard of a timing chain guide having any failures.

 

[RCinNC]

Hi WJ. I phrased that badly as far as 100,000 miles not being the norm. I think I made it sound like I didn't think modern bikes were capable of that, but that isn't how I meant it. I meant that I didn't think that it was the norm for most motorcycle riders to put six figures of mileage on a bike. Most guys just don't ride them that much. When I sold my '04 Road King it had 50,000 miles on it; every other Road King of that approximate age that was for sale on Chopper Exchange and Cycletrader at the same time I sold mine had no more than half that mileage. Lots of them were in the 10,000 mile range. I've seen that same characteristic when I've window shopped for used bikes from other brands; older bikes with really low mileage. That's why the actual capabilities of how long a bike engine can be expected to last is kind of an unknown to me. I have an '07 Toyota Camry with 110,000 miles, and it's not difficult at all to find other Camrys from that model year that have 150,000 miles or more that are still running good. With bikes, since there are so fewer examples of six figure mileages, it's a little harder for me to form an informed opinion.

With the Harley CCT, it was a combination of factors, if I recall correctly. One was the unexpectedly premature degradation of the Delrin guides and the other was the amount of pressure applied to the cam chain by the spring driven tensioner. When I had mine replaced, it was replaced with a newly designed hydraulically actuated tensioner, and the spring powered ones were phased out in the 2006 model year Twin Cam 88's.

Like SilverBullet, I can't recall ever reading about a CCT failure on a 2014 S10. I may just be having mechanical paranoia, compounded by confirmation bias. I start reading posts on forums about a couple people having an issue with something like a CCT with catastrophic results, and I start thinking that it might be commonplace. Without knowing how many Super Teneres are out there compared to how many have actually had a specific mechanical problem, it's easy to convince myself when reading individual accounts of failure that the issue might be more widespread than it is.

 

[EricV]

Get the valves checked. Flush and bleed the brake/clutch systems. If you don't engage ABS fairly regularly, cycle the ABS during the Flush/bleed process with an extra flush. Check your bearings when you get new tires. People have had bearings fail, but my personal experience is 100 to 150k miles for Yamaha wheel bearings. I'd preemptively replace them at 100k, IMHO.

If the cam chain is getting noisier than it used to be, get the CCT replaced. You do get plenty of warning before most CCT failures, we just have to be aware enough to listen to it on cold start ups. I heard mine getting noticeably louder and rattling for longer periods on cold start up for ~4k miles before it failed. Had I not been in the middle of a 8k mile trip in Alaska/Yukon, I'd have gotten it looked at before it failed. I also had the previous experience of CCTs getting noisy on my FJR, (3 replacements in 100k miles, last one was still good 60k later). On the FJR, the cam chain would rattle badly, then get quieter as the CCT finally adjusted out a step. My bad for not understanding that the Super Ten had a much, much longer cam chain and a different design CCT that would create catastrophic failure rather than just get loud.

 

[RCinNC]

Thanks Eric. I'm coming due for the next flush of the brake/clutch system. When I do the brakes, I change the fluid, bleed the brakes, then take it out in my gravel driveway and activate the front and rear ABS. I then bleed them one more time. I bought a couple big syringes a while back, so this will be my chance to play around with reverse bleeding them instead of using the vacuum pump. I'll schedule the valve check in the next month or so (I did do the initial one at 26,000 miles).

Maybe you can clue me in on how the CCT functions. Does it totally retract when the oil pressure drops to zero (such as when the bike is shut off)? And does the amount of pressure it exerts on the cam chain guide vary with the amount of oil pressure present? Is the noise it makes when it's starting to fail caused by the fact that the chain is loose because the plunger isn't extending completely until the oil pressure builds up to the point that it overcomes whatever resistance is in the CCT that's preventing it from extending? Would a catastrophic sudden failure be basically because the plunger failed to extend and the loose cam chain slips on the camshaft gear, causing the valves to be in the wrong position and whacking the cylinder head? What causes the CCT to fail? Is it a blockage of some sort that prevents the oil pressure in the unit from reaching operating level? Not that any of that helps me decide to change it or not, but I'm curious what happens in the CCT that actually causes it to fail.

 

[ballisticexchris]

I have a question on the ABS. I have been activating mine on almost every ride. I run about 1/2 mile on the local dirt horse trail. I hit the rear brake a bunch of times then the front brake, and then rear and front. When I do a fluid change I would assume I won't have to cycle the ABS. Or is it still a good idea just to get out the old fluid.

FWIW, I change my fluid 1-2 times per season and use the Motul or Maxima 600/660 series dot 4.

 

[EricV]

Maybe you can clue me in on how the CCT functions.

I'll try my best. Others please correct if I state an error.

Does it totally retract when the oil pressure drops to zero (such as when the bike is shut off)?

Not to my knowledge, it just stays in it's last position. I suspect it slowly pulls away slightly or relaxes a little, thus the extra noise on cold start up. It has both a spring and is oil pressure assisted. The cold start up noise may be more about oil pressure building up slower than on a hot start.

And does the amount of pressure it exerts on the cam chain guide vary with the amount of oil pressure present?

Yes, as I understand the design. I don't think it's a dramatic change though. At high rpms the oil pressure when warm isn't hugely higher than at low rpms. It's normal to see higher oil pressures at cold start up than at warmed up temps, for example. You would think that might help, but the long chain and I'm just guessing that the time for the oil to move up to the CCT passages is more the reason for initial rattle.

Is the noise it makes when it's starting to fail caused by the fact that the chain is loose because the plunger isn't extending completely until the oil pressure builds up to the point that it overcomes whatever resistance is in the CCT that's preventing it from extending?

That's exactly what I believe occurs. My Gen I CCT failure occured, in part, because I changed the oil immediately prior to the failure. I had an appointment to take it to the dealer for the noisy CCT and a normal valve check/adjust. I didn't want to pay the dealer to do something as mundane as an oil/filter change, and it was over due. I didn't think at the time, but due to the dry sump design that first start after the oil change would have a slightly longer delay before oil pressure came up to normal. (due to draining the sump and engine, but the oil fill only goes into the sump.) As the CCT wore out on my bike, the noisy clatter of the loose cam chain lasted longer on start ups, especially cold ones. Since I was on an extended trip, the bike was being parked outside over nights, so possibly compounding the problem. I now suspect that those colder than usual morning starts may have also caused faster wear of an already worn CCT.

Would a catastrophic sudden failure be basically because the plunger failed to extend and the loose cam chain slips on the camshaft gear, causing the valves to be in the wrong position and whacking the cylinder head?

Exactly that. If you hear a metallic 'snap' sound, and the bike doesn't start on the first attempt, STOP. At that point, a few others have had no damage and only needed a new CCT and re-setting of the cam chain to correct slipped teeth.

What causes the CCT to fail? Is it a blockage of some sort that prevents the oil pressure in the unit from reaching operating level?

I don't know, not having seen failure analysis on the Gen I CCT. I think it's more mechanical, rather than blocked oil passages. I have seen other CCTs that had broken springs, but do not know if mine did.

Not that any of that helps me decide to change it or not, but I'm curious what happens in the CCT that actually causes it to fail.

As are many of us!

 

[EricV]

I have a question on the ABS. I have been activating mine on almost every ride. I run about 1/2 mile on the local dirt horse trail. I hit the rear brake a bunch of times then the front brake, and then rear and front. When I do a fluid change I would assume I won't have to cycle the ABS. Or is it still a good idea just to get out the old fluid.

FWIW, I change my fluid 1-2 times per season and use the Motul or Maxima 600/660 series dot 4.

I cycle my ABS in a similar manner, just using it. Not as often as you do, but I believe enough to keep the fluid from getting stagnant in the ABS pump. IMHO, I don't think you need to worry about cycling out the fluid when you do fluid changes due to your usage pattern meaning that the fluid in the pump isn't very old. Especially if you just did this on your last ride before doing the fluid change and the fluid does not appear to be contaminated.

A main cause of failure with ABS pumps/solenoids is the stale brake fluid in the pump has too much water content and it causes a ring of corrosion to develop. Then when you activate the ABS, the valve is pushed past that ring, but can't retract and seizes. You can see similar damage on brake caliper pistons for both the same reason and pistons that got wet and the bike was parked for very extended time. The ring of corrosion doesn't prevent the piston from being pushed out by normal hydraulic pressure, but it can't retract. Makes for lots of smoke when that happens on a brake caliper!

Worth saying again is that brake fluid is hygroscopic. Meaning it absorbs water.

From the web: "Hygroscopic is the ability of a chemical compound to absorb or adsorb water."

 

[Sierra1]

Opinion: Bikes that don't make to 100K miles were NOT maintained like they were supposed to. The Tenere will easily make it to 100K miles.

Fact(s): Regular/proper maintenance on any machine is mandatory. !00K miles on cars, back in the day, was considered high mileage. Some cars don't require major maintenance until 100K. Some engines require timing belt/chain replacement at certain mileage; some don't. The ones that do are called "interference engines"; when the belt/chain goes, it takes out the engine. With non-interference engines, there is no REQUIRED replacement, until it breaks. Because when it breaks, you replace the belt/chain, and the engine is fine. And, the same car, depending on trim level, could have one or the other engine. Follow your manual.

 

[WJBertrand]

I think manufacturers still specify a timing belt replacement interval even in a non-interference engine. If the belt snaps in such an engine you are correct there would not be any mechanical damage, but the engine will immediately stop (DAMHIK). Depending on the driving conditions at that moment, that could be quite dangerous.

Engines with timing chains or gears don't normally have a specified replacement interval for those drive methods as they are expected to last the life of the engine.

 

[Blind Squirrel]

Interesting article on brake fluids that I believe fits well with this conversation:

DOT Brake Fluid vs. Mineral Oil - and the Winner is...