The ST/GS Internal Debate

snakebitten

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Go read how freaking amazing the 2014 GSA is.
Although it's kinda funny that 575lbs dry is not complained about if it's a GS. And now they even defend ABS offroad, because it just works. Irony. Lol

That has got to be the wickedest Big Pig ADV bike on the planet. Simply capable of everything I hold dear in this genre.
And the $21,000+ would be completely warranted, in my opinion, if it had 1 simple guarantee that it doesn't.

It will take you (and your lovely wife) anywhere you dream, and then get you back!

I'll have one, when I really believe that. Just kills me that I don't. It's BMW's job to change that.
 

adventurelounger

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Who've thunk that a few questions about heated grips, a goofy nippled kickstand design, and the actual potential for pant-snagging would've precipitated such a...a...opinion-storm! Second update from OP, which would be me. I sold my bike (F800GS) to a really good guy, who was so happy he was practically giddy. Fair square deal, and both of us are happy. But now one of us is bike-less (well, sorta). Still have my trusty Vespa GT200 which--for whatever you think of Piaggio or Italian engineering--has been BULLETPROOF. Never a hiccup. Just change oil, tires, and ride.

I'm trying to get a dealer in the area to give me any info on a 2014 Tenere. But tough to get them to return emails even. I suppose I might have to show up and plunk down a deposit to get them moving. But so far I haven't even seen a
2014 Tenere, much less demoed one. But when I can find one, I'm 90% sure I will buy it. I'd also like to ideally get it from one of the dealers closest to me, where I will (rarely, according to you all) service it.


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Jonezn

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Big Blu said:
Me, I'll ride anything that puts big smile on my face and care less what other have to say. Luv my R12R, luv my Vespa 300GT, life is good! I'd rather wine then whine.....

Paul
I'm the same way. I think this is really evident, and I'm sure you'd agree, here in Florida where seeing adventure bikes of any type is a rare occurrence. The look is always the same from both cruisers and speed bikes: "what is that thing?" It doesn't bother me though. The ST is best bike I've ever ridden!
 

Big Blu

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Jonezn said:
I'm the same way. I think this is really evident, and I'm sure you'd agree, here in Florida where seeing adventure bikes of any type is a rare occurrence. The look is always the same from both cruisers and speed bikes: "what is that thing?" It doesn't bother me though. The ST is best bike I've ever ridden!
A couple of my riding buds have adventure bikes, several with Tigers, a few KLRs, and a few WeeStroms.... but the only adventure riding they do is on RT 41. Down my way RT 41 is a major N/S roadway and is always packed with old retirees(like me!), young grasshoppers with a cell phone in one hand and a steering wheel in the other hand. I've been all over this country and most of Eastern Europe and can say, without a doubt, RT 41 is second only to Italy, and yes I been on the LA Freeway(and had a car load of Mexican throw beer cans at me in bumper to bumper traffic at 70 mph and no where go)! Everyday on the highway here is an adventure!

Jeeeezz, OK Dallara you win, all BMWs are a piece of shit, and I wish you gute fahrt! :-* ::025::
But I know a guy, actually several, that have well over 200K miles on their piece of shit boxer motors, the motors with the cheap ass parts in them. One of them is from Vancover, he rode his old airhead around the world in 2 six months segments. ::26::

The picture below is Frank, the guy from Vancover, and airing up in my driveway. His bike was shipped from Europe into Orland and he spent a few days with me exploring the best of SW Florida, the Keys, Kennedy Space Center, etc... You can see from the picture the cheap ass metallurgy has taken it's toll.... or maybe it was the salt on the roads in Siberia or Mongolia or maybe the yak urine in Tibet! He'd be amused by you blathering. ::025::

Paul
 

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toompine

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Big Blu said:
Yeh, I know. we all like our bikes cause were smart and always make the right decisions..... ::025::
But why did you make that decision, exactly what is it that makes the Yamaha a better bike? We can point to the past and see the reliability issues that plagued BMW but the new GS is a total new design, maybe more reliable maybe not, the clock is ticking, so let's set that aside for this discussion.


Paul
I road Observed trials for decades. I road raced. I road a lot of lot of commute miles. At the annual San Mateo motorcycle show in 2010 I happened to ride the Tenere. It was the first ADV bike that I had been on that I had a chance to get my feet down, most of them gave me a nosebleed from the seat height. Bonus 1. ::008:: Test ride was a mix of freeway, street and goaty road. The Tenere did them all really really well. Bonus 2. ::008:: Back into the parking lot and stood up on the pegs, solid, easy full lock turns, perfectly balanced weight down low. Bonus 3...done, sold. ::008::

Ordered, waited, waited and got to know all these fine folks as we salivated over the bike and dreamed farkle dreams.

After I got the bike I took an off road class for big bikes at an OHV park I had known for 40 years. I knew every inch of that place and in my mind I had a list of all the places I would not/could not ride the Tenere. Somehow the instructor did not have the same list and we rode all the trails I had ridden my trials bike on. Trails mind you, not sections. Regardless I came away from that day knowing I had bought a great big trials bike capable sport touring.

Next was Death Valley and two days off road; gravel;some fast, some deep, sand, rocks, steps. All no problems. Big smiles. Then it was Prudhoe Bay and back. 9,000 miles. No issues, took it all in stride.

36,000 trouble free miles now, lots of dirt, (still dirty from a recent Death Valley trip with even more and tougher trails this time ( and a gravel road/two track that we were hitting 65 mph on ???). I bought this bike to do medium length trips (200 - 300 miles), long trips (thousands of miles), and dirt riding. This bike excels in the dirt, way better than ever anticipated and it does all those other things very well.

Expectations exceeded in capability, reliability and fun factor. All that and it was (and remains) a reasonable expense ::001::
 

Rasher

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In the UK some of the latest BMW's have had engines, and in one or two instances the entire bike has been replaced due to ongoing issues they could not fix.

They have also had several recalls for oil pumps with too high a pressure blowing oil out, Engine Management problems, Forks not tightened from the factory, not to mention the stability issues they do not have - but for no reason whatsoever the 2014 model now has a steering damper ::)

The original bikes were shipped with dodgy electrical switches' so all the indicators would randomly come on / go off at will - BMW shipped bikes knowing these were iffy and waited for customers to have problems before replacing them.

It also seems many bikes have clutch and gearbox problems and BMW are back to their old tricks of changing their minds about oil levels every few minutes in a vain hope of getting the clutch / gearbox to work without swapping out the entire engine.

Not bad for a bike in its first year, and I know the BMW fans will say "oh but they sell so many", even so I doubt in the first 3 months there were more new 2013 GS on the road than there were S10's that were already in their fourth year of production.

Look back to the previous 1200GS when it was first launched in 2004 with FPC / EWS and Final drive problems, I expect very few people who bought one of these got more than a few lamp posts from the dealers before something went wrong, in 2008 they produced the MU version (this was model upgrade) which was supposedly a "fixed" version - I bought a 2 year old one with 6k on the clock and within 12k and 18 months it had needed over £2,000 of repairs (luckily most was under warranty) and the Final Drives and Fuel Pump controllers were still dodgy.

2010 saw the last version, this had a few problems with cam position sensors on early models and fuel gauge senders with many owners reporting several replacements during warranty period, but it seemed the FD issues were pretty much over (only 6 years to sort, well done BMW) and I was tempted by one of the last ones of these in 2012 as after 9 years of production BMW had pretty much got it to the point most Japanese bikes are before they start tooling up the production lines.

Most people with "reliable" BMW's if pressed will give up a whole load of issues, often they do not see this as unreliable as it is almost expected, and in the UK BMW do a lot of "Goodwill" repairs which gives owners a warm fuzzy feeling and makes them loathed to slag BMW off, and I must admit it is quite impressive the level of post warranty support owners in the UK do receive - and one of the reasons for the BMW success.

If a BMW FD explodes a year out of warranty in the UK, with a full dealer service history there is a very good chance BMW will fix it for free, I am pretty sure if the same happened to an S10 Yamaha would tell you to piss off.....

....just look at the couple of people who have had the clocks fail (or trip reset button to be precise) this is the sort of thing BMW would most likely do under goodwill, this keeps the customer happy in the long term, and also ensures owners are more likely to stick with the main dealer servicing.

The problem I had was more of trusting a BMW, I get a good bike trip every 1-2 years and could not chance this being ruined by a BMW foible regardless of if they would fix it for free or not. If I won the lottery and did not have a day job and could ride whenever I liked maybe I would go and test a GS, but for now on limited finds and with limited riding time available to me the Yamaha is a far better proposition.

I assume by the moaning here that BMW US is not quite so generous
 

Dirt_Dad

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Rasher said:
The problem I had was more of trusting a BMW, I get a good bike trip every 1-2 years and could not chance this being ruined by a BMW foible regardless of if they would fix it for free or not. If I won the lottery and did not have a day job and could ride whenever I liked maybe I would go and test a GS, but for now on limited finds and with limited riding time available to me the Yamaha is a far better proposition.
That about sums it up for me. I've never owned a BMW, and at the current rate, I never will. I have owned an unreliable bike in the past (CanAm Spyder), and I do not enjoy being 1500 miles from home and searching for a dealer to take care of whatever issue popped up this time. I'd much rather spend my time thinking about weather conditions, road conditions, or where I want to go vs. worried about is this machine about to breakdown...again.

The GS looks nice. I hear it handles nice. I'm glad BMW sells a ton of them. But if I need to worry about what is going to break next, it will not be in my inventory.
 

creggur

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Dirt_Dad said:
The GS looks nice. I hear it handles nice. I'm glad BMW sells a ton of them. But if I need to worry about what is going to break next, it will not be in my inventory.
This was a major factor that steered me away from a GS and toward the Tenere when I made the move from Sport-Tourers to Adv Tourers.

I'm guessing most people riding Teneres have the means to ride pretty much whatever they like. What I don't have is a lot of time. And the precious little time I have to ride, I want to ride (not wrench) on the bike.
 

Jonezn

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WOW!!! Why does every question involving both the GS and ST always turn into a heated debate? I know everyone is passionate about what they ride (or not) but why do we have to bash on what somebody else decides to ride? The first vehicle I ever bought was a CJ7. My Dad told me not to because they were known for their reliability issues but I didn't care. I loved that Jeep and drove it for years but sure enough, Dad was right. It was constantly breaking down and I spent more money on it repairing it than I would have done just driving a 4runner. I didn't care though. My Dad never did understand why I kept pouring money into it but it's hard to explain to someone how you can love an inanimate object so much. Even with its reliability issues I couldn't see myself driving anything else. I've owned two other jeeps since that first one and every time my Dad has asked "you didn't learn your lesson the first time?" I don't own one now because bikes have taken their place. However, every time I see one going down the rode with the top off and some dirt on it there's a little part of me that wishes I still had one.

My point is this: get the bike that "moves" you. If the ST doesn't move you, you'll always be looking at the GS wondering "what if?"
 

Koinz

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Jonezn said:
WOW!!! Why does every question involving both the GS and ST always turn into a heated debate?
I think you answered your own question with your Jeep Story. It comes down to reliability for me. If the Tenere didn't come out when it did, I'd been riding a GS. I know several people that have one with very few issues, but there are some with catastrophic issues that simply shouldn't happen and would cut into my ride time. Reliability is #1 to me. Oh and........You should've listened to your Dad. :D
 

Jonezn

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Koinz said:
Oh and........You should've listened to your Dad. :D
Yeah, you're probably right. I'm 35 now with 2 kids of my own (6 and 3) and every year I get older, my Dad gets that much smarter.
 

snakebitten

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Technically, you were "bashing" the jeep every bit as much as some of us are the BMW. :)

Although bash was your word.
I don't think you bashed. And I sure dont think everyone is bashing BMW.

And it's only natural for the 2 bikes to be compared. Especially in a thread that was designed for comparisons to be made. Lol
I will never skip a GSvsST thread!
Pure entertainment for this junkie.
 

HoebSTer

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Well, I haven't read through this whole thread, but since I just rode a new WC GS 40 miles on hwy, I will throw in some thoughts as compare.
GS. Pros: Lifted front wheel easy, wasn't even trying!
Easy clutch pull.
Smooth down shift feel on gear lever.
Great low end and mid range.
Good wind protection, seemed quieter then even my tall shield on Tenere.
Great feel of brakes both front and rear with application.
I don't own it!

Cons: Size 14 shoe barely extended far enough for a good solid shift ( missed shift 4-5 times)!
Side stand knob didn't allow foot to rotate inward to enhance a proper movement of shift lever.
Foot pegs not long enough and felt pressure on inside ball of foot. Foot pegs mounted too far rearward.
No free play in the fly-by-wire throttle grip. As soon as it moves, you are opening throttle, almost seems dangerous coming from an experienced long time rider.
Engine buzzy at road speed 75-80, felt through bars.
Top end power seemed to fall flat past 5500rpm.
Low tone grumbly growl felt through final drive, engine was quiet.
Steering required higher level of effort to turn into a corner.
Sure are spindly looking top fork sliders where mount to top near handlebar.

Overall, i am glad I own a Tenere. Sure I have tweeked it to be my own, but my complaints were about ergos which for most part can't be moved or adjusted. I remember the same feeling years ago when Ducati first came out with ST2 or something like that where the side stand and shifter location impeded with shifting, something I couldn't of lived with if I had owned. I think the throttle lack of free play is an issue, whether we notice it or not on our bikes which do have it. 5-8mm of travel sure makes a difference.

Jeff
 

TXTenere

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HoebSTer said:
Engine buzzy at road speed 75-80, felt through bars.
I noticed that from my first test ride, nearly two years ago. You are only the second person that I have heard acknowledge it.

Since my initial test ride, I've taken out several more GS-W's, and they've all had the buzz. To me, every other issue aside, the buzz/vibration is enough to not purchase the bike. I do a fair amount of freeway riding, and the buzz is to the point that my hands are numb after fifteen minutes on the highway. Not OK for me, especially since its right at cruising speeds, and I have no idea how I could fix it, if at all...
 

Salmon Sam

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I feel compelled to add something else to this discussion with respect to the reliability issue. To me, that is why I tend to be a Japanese bike fan. They just seem to know how to design and build reliable vehicles. I am not one who has a lot of time to work on bikes, so I want something that I can get on and ride when I get the opportunity: no muss, no fuss. There is NO QUESTION that Japanese bikes like Yamaha are more reliable than Beemers, H-D's, Ducati's or Triumphs. Just the way it is. No exactly sure why, but there are many theories. Some may say that that same mentality makes Japanese vehicles boring. Fine. If reliability is boring so that I can ride more, then give it to me.
Anyway, the real point that I want to make is that reliability is an odds game. It doesn't mean that every GS will break down and referencing someone that has rode 250,000 miles on one means little (degrees of freedom = 0). It also doesn't mean that every Super Tenere won't encounter a major problem, but as a whole, Yamaha is a more reliable motorcycle than BMW, again based on percentages of problems in ownership surveys.

Now, moving on to fact: I still think that the duck bill is butt-ugly. ::025::
 

FJRacer

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Salmon Sam said:
I feel compelled to add something else to this discussion with respect to the reliability issue. To me, that is why I tend to be a Japanese bike fan. They just seem to know how to design and build reliable vehicles. I am not one who has a lot of time to work on bikes, so I want something that I can get on and ride when I get the opportunity: no muss, no fuss. There is NO QUESTION that Japanese bikes like Yamaha are more reliable than Beemers, H-D's, Ducati's or Triumphs. Just the way it is. No exactly sure why, but there are many theories. Some may say that that same mentality makes Japanese vehicles boring. Fine. If reliability is boring so that I can ride more, then give it to me.
Anyway, the real point that I want to make is that reliability is an odds game. It doesn't mean that every GS will break down and referencing someone that has rode 250,000 miles on one means little (degrees of freedom = 0). It also doesn't mean that every Super Tenere won't encounter a major problem, but as a whole, Yamaha is a more reliable motorcycle than BMW, again based on percentages of problems in ownership surveys.
I approve this message! ::026::
 

Andylaser

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Big Blu said:
But I know a guy, actually several, that have well over 200K miles on their piece of shit boxer motors, the motors with the cheap ass parts in them. One of them is from Vancover, he rode his old airhead around the world in 2 six months segments. ::26::

Paul
Actually, I would agree that the air head was a decent motorcycle. Back then, BMWs were built well, had a reputation for quality and the twin sided swing arm was a solid bit of engineering. Then they got technical. made everything complicated and had to make it cheaper to cover the cost of the complications. Thats where it all goes tits up.
 

Dallara

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~




Looks like he's accustom to the position all long-time BMW owners who do their own work know too well, Blu! ;)

I can just hear him saying - "Oh, bloody hell! What the f*ck has gone wrong now?" ::025::

But ya' know... Andylaser may be on to something there. All too often manufacturers forget what got them there and start screwing the pooch when they start out-tricking themselves! :D

Dallara



~
 

dcstrom

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Hey Dallara... at 67,000 miles through all sorts of conditions, I love my Super Tenere, but yes... it did crack the frame. Disappointing, but I think I'm operating at the outer edges of the design envelope, in terms of types of roads and weight carried. $100 worth of welding and all is well now. If I was in the US the frame would have been replaced under warranty.

This is on the right side swing-arm pivot, top one normal view, and second one with Magnaflux





Dallara said:
But let's be real here... How many Super Tenere's have you seen, in person, with any kind of major failure? Have you seen that cracked frame, for instance, up close and personal, where you can lay your hands on it?

~
 
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