Safety - Lighting and Visibility

[Frenchfries]

During day light hours I ride with the high beams, even on bikes that have extra riding lights, it just a habit I've developed. My theory is, you can never have too much money, get too much sex, or be too safe! ::013::

Paul

This is an interesting topic. I have seen such behavior, using high beams during daytime in traffic, getting more frequent. Even within the group I am riding with. In my opinion, this is not only illegal, but counterproductive. Using high beams does not only blind the incoming traffic, it prevents from evaluating the distance, therefore the car motorist cannot tell how far you are. So (s)he may as well dismiss the fact that the motorcycle is nearby. No scientific study to back this up. But get in your car, and I doubt you can tell a blinding high beam from a motorcycle is 20 or 100 yards (meters) away.
My 2 cts.

 

[Ramseybella]

This is an interesting topic. I have seen such behavior, using high beams during daytime in traffic, getting more frequent. Even within the group I am riding with. In my opinion, this is not only illegal, but counterproductive. Using high beams does not only blind the incoming traffic, it prevents from evaluating the distance, therefore the car motorist cannot tell how far you are. So (s)he may as well dismiss the fact that the motorcycle is nearby. No scientific study to back this up. But get in your car, and I doubt you can tell a blinding high beam from a motorcycle is 20 or 100 yards (meters) away.
My 2 cts.

This new topic has been moved>> http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=13572.msg214807#msg214807

 

[Big Blu]

This new topic has been moved>> http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=13572.msg214807#msg214807

That was only the turn signal discussion, thank you very much! ::018::

Paul

 

[Big Blu]

This is an interesting topic. I have seen such behavior, using high beams during daytime in traffic, getting more frequent. Even within the group I am riding with. In my opinion, this is not only illegal, but counterproductive. Using high beams does not only blind the incoming traffic, it prevents from evaluating the distance, therefore the car motorist cannot tell how far you are. So (s)he may as well dismiss the fact that the motorcycle is nearby. No scientific study to back this up. But get in your car, and I doubt you can tell a blinding high beam from a motorcycle is 20 or 100 yards (meters) away.
My 2 cts.

I agree for night time riding but during daylight hours I don't think it will interfere with the vision of oncoming traffic. It seems to me that I notice a
brighter light of oncoming vernicles easier then the low beam during daylight hours. Studies do show that daytime headlights in fact reduce accidents and many insurance companies offer rate discounts if your car is so equipped and they are mandatory on motorcycles in many states.. I'm speaking of the headlight high beam, not aux driving lights. Those after market LED driving lights on motorcycles do indeed seem bright enough to affect vision of oncoming drivers, even during daylight hours. It seems to be an adventure rider thing, he with the most LED lumens is the most adventurous of adventurer riders. ::025::

Paul

 

[Firefight911]

I agree for night time riding but during daylight hours I don't think it will interfere with the vision of oncoming traffic. It seems to me that I notice a
brighter light of oncoming vernicles easier then the low beam during daylight hours. Studies do show that daytime headlights in fact reduce accidents and many insurance companies offer rate discounts if your car is so equipped and they are mandatory on motorcycles in many states.. I'm speaking of the headlight high beam, not aux driving lights... Those LED driving lights do indeed seem bright enough to affect vision of oncoming drivers, even during daylight hours/

Paul

Why do DRLs work? IMO, it is simply because they are, or at least they weren't, the norm. The idea is to be different and not blend in with the surroundings. Since almost every car out there now has DRLs standard, you are just another vehicle to drop in to the landscape.

Don't rely on anything but your own slef to keep you safe. I do not drive defensively on a motorcycle. I am an offensive driver. This is a tactic, NOT an attitude. I never go the same speed as traffic, I never allow myself to remain in a blind spot, EVERY other person on the road is out to kill me, I am constantly moving my position within a lane, etc.

Hey, I might be "right" with a light but I'd rather not be dead and right. I'll just expect them to take my space and adjust to provide myself an alternative when they do take the area I planned occupy and smile as I go by.

 

[Big Blu]

Why do DRLs work? IMO, it is simply because they are, or at least they weren't, the norm. The idea is to be different and not blend in with the surroundings. Since almost every car out there now has DRLs standard, you are just another vehicle to drop in to the landscape.

Don't rely on anything but your own slef to keep you safe. I do not drive defensively on a motorcycle. I am an offensive driver. This is a tactic, NOT an attitude. I never go the same speed as traffic, I never allow myself to remain in a blind spot, EVERY other person on the road is out to kill me, I am constantly moving my position within a lane, etc.

Hey, I might be "right" with a light but I'd rather not be dead and right. I'll just expect them to take my space and adjust to provide myself an alternative when they do take the area I planned occupy and smile as I go by.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that high beams lights were a substitute for good judgment.

Paul

 

[Big Blu]

Some interesting information on the cause of motorcycle crashes.
The move conspicuous I am to drivers coming toward me, the safer I'm likely to be.

http://www.ridergroups.com/1447/the-top-3-reasons-why-motorcycles-crash/

Paul

 

[OldRider]

There can be no argument about it, high beams will blind oncoming drivers on two lane roads to the point that I don't think it's safe, not to mention damn right rude. Don't even get me started on HL modulators.

 

[2112]

I think additional lighting is fine as long as it is there to make you more obvious, the high beam is a no for me as I think it does make it difficult to judge distance as has been mentioned earlier in the thread. Every little advantage we can get helps us stay safe, right ?

 

[Dogdaze]

I like LED's, I tend to have them pointing downwards a few degrees, so they can be seen but not blinding, I don't need them for night riding. I was also toying with the idea of a emergency vehicle (recovery) type, flashing white LED strobe mounted up front, it's annoying enough to catch the eye and not being blue or red should not fall foul of the law, any thoughts?

 

[Big Blu]

There can be no argument about it, high beams will blind oncoming drivers on two lane roads to the point that I don't think it's safe, not to mention damn right rude. Don't even get me started on HL modulators.

Your motorcycle high beams are WAY brighter then mine.... ::024::

If being rude makes me more safe on the roadway, I'll take it everyday. ::018::

What do you recommend to make you more conspicuous to oncoming drivers?

Paul

 

[OldRider]

Your motorcycle high beams are WAY brighter then mine.... ::024::

If being rude makes me more safe on the roadway, I'll take it everyday. ::018::

What do you recommend to make you more conspicuous to oncoming drivers?

Paul

Low beams and defensive riding should work.

I've met a lot of bikes with their brights on and I couldn't see anything else.

You may use the "my high beams aren't that bright" excuse to defend your use of them, but in reality, high beams are too bright. Plus rude, illegal and annoying.

JMHO

 

[Frenchfries]

What do you recommend to make you more conspicuous to oncoming drivers?

I think the Super Ténéré is already quite well equipped with 2 low-beam front lights and front-side lights (blinkers). If the motorist can't see it coming, this is probably because (s)he is too busy texting with one hand while holding the coffee mug with the other. Nothing will make her/him pay any attention to the world around. Not a Hi-Beam, not a LED full power stuff, or whatever. Maybe a screaming siren will do. And still, I have witnessed a bunch of morons unable to see a fire-truck coming with all lights and siren on.
Let's face it, we are surrounded by a bunch of retards, politically corrects but totally inconsiderate to the rest of the world. They would occasionally kill you, calling this an accident for which they are not responsible. They are NEVER responsible for whatever. If you want to stay alive, take this in account, and NEVER count on them to act properly.

This being said, my fear is to be rear-hit by some inattentive motorist on freeways, while I respect the speed limit while she/he is not. Is there a way to have the same system in the back as we have on the front (tail lights in the blinkers)?

 

[EricV]

If being rude makes me more safe on the roadway, I'll take it everyday.

What do you recommend to make you more conspicuous to oncoming drivers?

Two flaws with your thinking. And no, I don't expect to sway you to a new paradigm. First, you're no more conspicuous than before, just another annoying vehicle on the road among thousands. Second, (pay attention, this is important), nothing you do makes you more conspicuous to oncoming drivers.

You're only fooling yourself with that line of thinking. It's not their responsibility to see you, it's yours to see them first. All the people that will see you, see you. The ones that don't, never will, regardless of anything you do. That's why people pull out in front of fire trucks, because they didn't see them!

Now, I'm not suggesting if you go for a ride at night with no lighting, that you'll be safe. But you are not somehow invisible during the day with or w/o lights either. The safest thing on your motorcycle is YOU.

@Dogdaze - Be careful with the strobing lights. Most states and the federal law specify what duration of flashing, or differentiate between lights like modulators that regulate power to a lower level, then brighter and actual strobing lights that go on/off/on/off. Modulating is legal with the correct cycle, but strobing is usually not.

 

[mrpete64]

Day driving running have been, from what I know, standard on all new Canadian cars. Some American cars also have them. I know that my insurance company gives a discount if your car has them. I assume that day running lights must do something for any insurance company to give a discount. All I know is that my 6 inch Rigid led bar is very bright and hopefully makes my bike "stick out" during the day from ordinary cars/trucks/etc. It could be wishful thinking on my part but I will continue to leave them on.
Mr. Pete-------->
aging hippie

 

[2112]

I like LED's, I tend to have them pointing downwards a few degrees, so they can be seen but not blinding, I don't need them for night riding. I was also toying with the idea of a emergency vehicle (recovery) type, flashing white LED strobe mounted up front, it's annoying enough to catch the eye and not being blue or red should not fall foul of the law, any thoughts?

I was talking to a feller who had a Goldwing trike a while ago and he had them fitted inside the mirror mounted indicators. They were very bright and he has used them to filter through traffic, gawd knows if they are legal though ?

 

[Big Blu]

.....
.....

You may use the "my high beams aren't that bright" excuse to defend your use of them, but in reality, high beams are too bright. Plus rude, illegal and annoying.

JMHO

With all due respect out "realities" seem to differ. I can stand in front of any of my bike and look into the head lights, with properly adjusted head lights, during day light hours, and with their high beams on and I'm not blinded. PIAA Super White Plus are my head light bulb of choice and usually the first upgrade I make to my bikes.

I feel my use of high beam make more visible to oncoming traffic, I think you'll agree, no?

Greater visibility improves my safety, especially from those intending to make a left hand turn, simple really. ::008::

Paul

 

[Big Blu]

Two flaws with your thinking. And no, I don't expect to sway you to a new paradigm. First, you're no more conspicuous than before, just another annoying vehicle on the road among thousands. Second, (pay attention, this is important), nothing you do makes you more conspicuous to oncoming drivers.

You're only fooling yourself with that line of thinking. It's not their responsibility to see you, it's yours to see them first. All the people that will see you, see you. The ones that don't, never will, regardless of anything you do. That's why people pull out in front of fire trucks, because they didn't see them!

Now, I'm not suggesting if you go for a ride at night with no lighting, that you'll be safe. But you are not somehow invisible during the day with or w/o lights either. The safest thing on your motorcycle is YOU.

@Dogdaze - Be careful with the strobing lights. Most states and the federal law specify what duration of flashing, or differentiate between lights like modulators that regulate power to a lower level, then brighter and actual strobing lights that go on/off/on/off. Modulating is legal with the correct cycle, but strobing is usually not.

With all due respect Eric, it IS the responsibility of other drivers to see me, all driver training education teaches that. My responsibility is to make myself as conspicuous as possibility, that includes lighting, clothing, road position, ect....

We are in agree that the rider has responsible for his safety,. I preached that for many years as a MSF instructor/rider coach when living in upstate NY. Though I haven't been involved with MSF for about 12, every 2-3 I take the ERC to keep my skills fresh.

 

[EricV]

With all due respect out "realities" seem to differ. I can stand in front of any of my bike and look into the head lights, with properly adjusted head lights, during day light hours, and with their high beams on and I'm not blinded. PIAA Super White Plus are my head light bulb of choice and usually the first upgrade I make to my bikes.

I feel my use of high beam make more visible to oncoming traffic, I think you'll agree, no?

Greater visibility improves my safety, especially from those intending to make a left hand turn, simple really. ::008::

Paul

Again, flawed thinking Paul. Sure, you can stand in front of your bikes with the high beams on and not be blinded. You're standing. Sit down at driver level and look again.

NO, NO, NO, you're not more visible to oncoming traffic, you're blinding them and making it more difficult for them to judge your distance and closing rate. AND, you're remain poorly focused on the mindset. Them seeing you is a fallacy. Its YOU that need to see them. If you want to be seen, pimp out your bike with neon and go hang out in the parking lot of the local Starbucks, that's the only place being seen is helpful.

If you want to get a driver's attention, the one thing that does work is CHANGE. Nothing static on you or your bike will make a driver see you better if they don't see you at all. Again, the drivers that are aware of motorcycles will see you anyway, regardless of what you're wearing or have on the bike or high beam/low beam. Those are not the problem, it's the drivers that are not aware of motorcycles that you need to worry about, and nothing static rolling down the road is going to get their attention.

So, if you're coming up on an on-coming vehicle, watch they behavior and if you suspect they are going to do something that puts you at risk, CHANGE something to get their attention. But regardless, BE PREPARED TO AVOID THEM or stop, take evasive action, etc. And flashing the headlights is not a good option, because it can be mis-construed as giving them the OK to do what ever they were going to do. A weave in the road a couple of times has worked for me on two lane roads, visibly catching the driver's attention. I have hit the high beam briefly from a ways back as well during the day, but don't leave it on because it disrupts their ability to judge speed and distance.

 

[AVGeek]

I have the Baja Designs OnX light bar under my headlights, and last year on the way to Colorado for the Rally, I tried running them (at both 50 and 100%) during the day. The guys I rode with all said the same thing, the lights were damn bright! This was during daylight hours, with me behind them. I also used my high beams during the day for many years, but have recently switched back to low beams, plus the extra 10w LEDs on my handlebars (running at 50% during the day, but I also have the option of 20 and 10%).

I think trying to make myself as conspicuous as possible, along with defensive riding habits, improves my risk profile more than just one or the other. I know there are some studies on situational blindness (think the basketball passing and the gorilla), but I'd be interested in seeing one as it applies directly to driving.