Rough idle, struggles at <12 mph on uphillls

[Eville Rich]

I tested trying to run at 10 to 13 mph in first gear this morning on my way to work. It was odd how hard that actually was to maintain. I had a bit of herky jerky. Not terrible, but it also pointed out to me that I just don't ride it like that much. A few thoughts:
1) I've got an Anthony reflash. While much improved over stock, there's still that on/off feeling to the throttle. At low speed, you are right at the throttle on/off threshold. Might be experiencing some of that.
2) I tend to use my clutch in those conditions to smooth things out and help manage the throttle threshold.
3) The stock tune would have been way worse. I've been toying with trying the Power Commander system and tunes available on the forum. The Anthony one was a vast improvement for Touring or Sport mode, so it's not a priority, but I feel there are some incremental changes I want to play with.
4) I think the engine braking on the S10 may impact these light throttle conditions. That can be addressed through a reflash. I like some engine braking, so Anthony kept some in my tune. But I may dial it back further if I go with another tune.

No answer for you here, other suggesting that you may be experiencing a "feature." But I don't really know. Just guessing.

Eville Rich
2016 S10

 

[SkunkWorks]

• Questions / Possible areas of improvement
  • The service manual indicates the normal idle speed of 1050 - 1150 RPM. Mine is more 950 - 1050 RPM. How can I adjust that up so it idles even smoother?
  • In THIS VIDEO he also used a Carbtune Pro and his readings were around 25-26 cmHg, whereas mine ended up around 18cmHg using the same tool?
  • I've read the 3/4 turn approach may differ depending on which Gen of bike you have. Mine is a 2013. Is the 3/4 turn the recommendation for my year as well?
  • On the slow uphill, while better, it still feels like it's "lurching' from time to time (not continuous / smooth)?

Air density has an effect on the vacuum readings an engine can achieve.
At your altitude, the vacuum readings that you get will be around 75-80% of what they would be at Sea-level.
Air temperature will also have an effect. If the air is really hot, it will achieve less vacuum than if it was cold air.

Engine idle speed will also affect vacuum readings. If you raise the engine idle a bit, the vacuum readings should also increase slightly.

It's hard to say exactly if there is anything wrong with your bike or not?
Using mine as an example (2014-model), if I am trying to go up a steep incline or up a rocky trail only going 12-13 mph in 1st gear it doesn't like it.
At that speed the engine is barely off "Idle" and will definitely chug a little until I increase my speed to a more reasonable level.
These bikes like a little more momentum than that.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[WookinPaNub]

I tested trying to run at 10 to 13 mph in first gear this morning on my way to work. It was odd how hard that actually was to maintain. I had a bit of herky jerky. Not terrible, but it also pointed out to me that I just don't ride it like that much. A few thoughts:
1) I've got an Anthony reflash. While much improved over stock, there's still that on/off feeling to the throttle. At low speed, you are right at the throttle on/off threshold. Might be experiencing some of that.
2) I tend to use my clutch in those conditions to smooth things out and help manage the throttle threshold.
3) The stock tune would have been way worse. I've been toying with trying the Power Commander system and tunes available on the forum. The Anthony one was a vast improvement for Touring or Sport mode, so it's not a priority, but I feel there are some incremental changes I want to play with.
4) I think the engine braking on the S10 may impact these light throttle conditions. That can be addressed through a reflash. I like some engine braking, so Anthony kept some in my tune. But I may dial it back further if I go with another tune.

No answer for you here, other suggesting that you may be experiencing a "feature." But I don't really know. Just guessing.

Eville Rich
2016 S10

I was actually curious as to other folks experiences at those speeds, so that is a good frame of reference thanks!

I was also actually curious about flash options and what they can do (set the idle higher, etc), so I may DM you on some of your experiences / thoughts if you don't mind. With the feedback I'm getting I'm starting to lean this way...

 

[WookinPaNub]

Air density has an effect on the vacuum readings an engine can achieve.
At your altitude, the vacuum readings that you get will be around 75-80% of what they would be at Sea-level.
Air temperature will also have an effect. If the air is really hot, it will achieve less vacuum than if it was cold air.

Engine idle speed will also affect vacuum readings. If you raise the engine idle a bit, the vacuum readings should also increase slightly.

It's hard to say exactly if there is anything wrong with your bike or not?
Using mine as an example (2014-model), if I am trying to go up a steep incline or up a rocky trail only going 12-13 mph in 1st gear it doesn't like it.
At that speed the engine is barely off "Idle" and will definitely chug a little until I increase my speed to a more reasonable level.
These bikes like a little more momentum than that.

Hope this is helpful.

That helps fill in a piece of the puzzle regarding the TBS readings and why they may have been so off from the one in the video, appreciate the details on that.

And also good to know about your bike in comparison at similar altitudes and how it struggles a bit at the lower speeds. I might be in better shape after the valve clearance project and TBS than I thought I was. The ECU flash may be the final piece to bring up the idle threshold and possibly smooth some other areas out. Many thanks for the inputs

 

[RCinNC]

Here's an off the wall suggestion: pull the new plugs you bought and make sure all of them are the right ones for the bike.

I once put in a replacement set of plugs I got from O'Reilly Auto. I checked the boxes when I got them to make sure they were the right ones, but I took it for granted that the plugs in the box were the same ones that the label on the outside of the box said they were. They weren't. One of them was the wrong plug. It didn't cause a performance issue, and I didn't notice it until I posted a photo of the plugs on this forum and another member saw it, but it does illustrate the point that it's possible to have a mismatched plug. If you have a plug that fires differently than the other three, it might be more noticeable at low speed., since engine momentum won't be masking the problem.

Checking the plugs is a good idea anyway. The condition of the plugs can tell you some stuff about what might be happening. I guess it's also possible that one of the plugs might have a defect, like a cracked insulator, that's causing an intermittent misfire.

 

[WJBertrand]

I couldn’t ride my bike (2015 ES) smoothly at low speeds (1st & 2nd gear) in S mode. Having the ECU re-flashed totally solved that for me.


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[Fennellg]

I have a 15 es. Can be a bit choppy or abrupt In S mode. I have adapted to it. Does not bother me. Every now and then after a long day in the saddle it will happen. Guess being tired and fatigued I am not on my A game. If it’s raining or the situation warrants it I will put it in T mode. Problem solved, sort of that is.

I will start out my next day forgetting I put it in T mode, thinking there is something wrong with my bike it’s anemic. Then I figure it out sooner or later. I rarely use T mode.

 

[WookinPaNub]

ECU Mapping Details
Researching S10 ECU mapping options here in the states here's what I've found thusfar and would appreciate any other thoughts / inputs:

• Self Flash Options
  • FT ECU: Includes hardware and license for mapping, map as many times as you like. ~$460
  • 2 Wheel Dyno Works: Same setup as FT ECU and actually looks like a reseller? ~$500
• Mail in Flash (one time)
  • Anthony (Forum Member out of NJ): Mail in, flash and return. $275 plus initial insured ship
  • 2 Wheel Dyno Works: (Out of Washington state): Mail in, flash, and return. $275
• My Perception from Initial Contact with Detailed Questions (Mail In)
  • Anthony: Prompt response, very pleasant and thorough in answering questions
  • 2 Wheel Dyno Works: Relatively prompt as well, professional, had to send a followup as not all questions were answered initially.
• My Perception of Reviews / Experiences on this Forum (Mail In)
  • Both Anthony and 2 Wheel Dyno Works have a significant number of very positive reviews on this forum. Anthony's seems to get the nod for not significantly nerfing the engine braking (which I like for my off roading) while 2 Wheel Dyno Works seems to have a bit of a nod for performance as the maps are generated in conjunction with dyno testing.

Anyone have other *specific / related* thoughts to the above?

 

[Jlq1969]

Power Vision 3 (Dynojet)

 

[Madhatter]

at 10 to 13 mph , you are going to need the clutch to control the bike . that would be about idle speed with the clutch released , just above a stall ... use your clutch and all this drama is solved .

 

[WookinPaNub]

I can't edit my original thread, but wanted to post up what the issue was and the ultimate fix:

Issue: Many of the intake and exhaust valves were in bad condition and there was a 15% leakage occurring. Piston rings were also starting to show wear.
Reason: Theory is that dirt was getting past the air filter and caused the damage
Repair: Replacement of all intake and exhaust valves, rebuild the head.
Note: The piston rings are no longer being manufactured by Yamaha, or by third parties. So when they go, unless something changes, the bike goes with it....

 

[Checkswrecks]

I can't edit my original thread, but ...

But then you did edit the original thread...

This thread is locked because of starting parallel threads. Go to the other thread here:

Recently started stuttering at low RPMs, loss of power in high gears over 4k RPM

You do not have to remove the Clutch-cover, the CCT, or the Camshafts to "CHECK" the Valve-Clearances. You DO have to remove all of those things to "ADJUST" the Valve-Clearances, as the adjustment Shims are underneath the Valve-Buckets. You cannot remove the Valve-Buckets without removing the...

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