rear spring replacement on 2014 ES

[WJBertrand]

I wonder if the stiffer rear spring will overload the ES preload adjustment motor?

 

[Karl]

I guess I will find out soon, no one has any advice or seems to have done this on the ES.

I think if I only do the preload adjustments sitting on the centre stand, the pre-load should be manageable. I am marginally worried about running out of damping tho.

K

 

[WJBertrand]

I guess I will find out soon, no one has any advice or seems to have done this on the ES.

I think if I only do the preload adjustments sitting on the centre stand, the pre-load should be manageable. I am marginally worried about running out of damping tho.

K

I've started a conversation with Race Tech, they don't seem to have much information on the Super Tenere ES version. As Matt at Race Tech explains, if the bikes are pretty well suspended, they don't get much in the way of requests early on. On the other hand if a new bike is way off, they begin to hear about them as soon as they begin hitting the streets. I guess this is some testament that most folks aren't all that dissatisfied with the Super T's OEM ES suspension.

Matt was very interested in the ES Tenere though, and promised to look into it and get back to me. If they haven't done anything yet they will need to borrow a bike for a week or so to do their development. I'm about 120 miles from Race Tech, so not super convenient for me. Anyone live close to Corona, CA that has an ES if need be?

 

[Karl]

That is good news.

I am surprised they have not heard much about the rear shock yet on the ES. Perhaps ES people are afraid to mess with it.

K

 

[tubebender]

I have to say this subject has been bothering me.

I find it real hard to believe that the ES version has a spring that has 55% less support then the standard model.
I mean, how is that possible? The bike is actually a few pounds heavier. The shock isn't magic, it just has a couple of motors to change preload and damping.
The linkage ratio hasn't changed.

I think there has got to be a error in the published figures.
I know for a fact the book on my 2012 was wrong because I actually measured the spring and found a 12% (less) difference.

I could be wrong but it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Karl]

The linkage ratio has changed. The dog-bones and the three point pivot thing (sorry, I don't have a name for it) have a different part number between ES and non ES according to the parts fiche.

 

[fredz43]

I have to say this subject has been bothering me.

I find it real hard to believe that the ES version has a spring that has 55% less support then the standard model.
I mean, how is that possible? The bike is actually a few pounds heavier. The shock isn't magic, it just has a couple of motors to change preload and damping.
The linkage ratio hasn't changed.

I think there has got to be a error in the published figures.
I know for a fact the book on my 2012 was wrong because I actually measured the spring and found a 12% (less) difference.

I could be wrong but it just doesn't make sense to me.

I think someone else posted some info about the linkage ratio being different. EDIT: While I was typing, Karl posted that it was he that originally pointed that out. In looking up the part numbers under the tab "rear arm suspension" it shows that there are different part numbers for "Arm 1" which are the dogbones and Arm Relay which is the pivot piece for the linkage. I am lookign at the parts on a 14 standard compared to a 14 ES ,parts # 11 and 12.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/opinion/the-concealed-carry-fantasy.html?emc=edit_th_20151026&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=62144290&_r=0

http://www.niehauscycle.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=4821679&category=Motorcycles&make=YAMAHA&year=2014&fveh=206251

I don't know if it really magic or not, but I know that the system works much better FOR ME than my Penske and later Ohlins equipped 12. I think Karl is experimenting because the measurements for rear sag on his ES are not within the guidelines that we have all been accustomed to on suspension. Personally, I don't know nor do I care what the measurement of sag is on my ES, because I know that I have found what I had been searching for on my 12 and that is a compliant ride on rough surfaces and a great handling ride on fast, smooth roads and the ability to return to previous settings with the push of a button. I know that my wife is very happy that I'm not always bothering her to come out an measure the sag on my bike every time I change load or forget how many turns I twisted on my hydraulic preload know last time.

It seems that most that have gone with the ES are very happy with it. I don't know how Yamaha did it with the ES system, but they made me a very, very happy S10 owner and I was pretty darn happy before.

BTW, if you get a chance, push down (carefully) on the rear of a ES when it is parked on the sidestand. It cost me some $ in parts when I once did that in my garage and tipped it over. A pretty weak spring back there.

 

[Checkswrecks]

ooooh a basic engineering question -
::015::


For those I can add a little on the how they did it part, because it comes out of basic spring theory.

There are basically 3 ways to make a spring. A straight-rate is the blue #1 line and since ideally the spring works best from mid-range, a proper spring is selected so that in the middle of the range the suspension is compressed roughly 30% of the total travel when we sit on the bike, ready to go.


A progressive rate is the red #3 and the difference in coils at the ends of the ES springs are a clue that this is a progressive. Because the bike makers have to be able to sell to a wide range of users, they select progressive springs. As the compression increases the resistance of the spring does too, but it does so faster than the straight-rate would. Unfortunately, if you are for example a heavier person and start in the middle, the suspension will be great on the highway but too soft everywhere else. Or you may crank up the pre-load, putting you at the right end of the curve, where the suspension is too stiff if you are not on a rough road or carving through tight twisties.


My own playing around with the 2012 and the 2014 non-ES makes me think that the OEM Yamaha spring selection is probably ideal for customers in the 180-200 lb range, give or take. I happen to be in that range and my passenger is pretty small, so we just don't get far from where it was designed for.


With the ES, Yamaha could pick a softer progressive to give that nice cushy highway ride. You start toward the left end of the red line and the linkage ratio is a big part of how fast you go up and down the curve. When you push the button, the motors in the shock simply add pre-load to move where you begin on the red line. That's why in the soft setting, the bike can be pushed down easily and could fall over. And how the firm settings simply move you to the right end of the red line when you want the stiffer suspension.

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Is the OEM pick for an ES spring ideal? The ability to push the button doesn't cancel the basic physics, it just allows you to more easily adjust the pre-load (and the associated damping inside the shock, which is another part of the story). So a light solo person or a heavily loaded couple could easily be close enough to an end of the red line that even the OEM progressive ES spring too often begins near an end of travel for that individual. [/font]

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]And that's where this thread began.[/font]

 

[Defekticon]

Here's my two cents to the OP after going through this recently with my non-es. I also weight 220, carry a pillion and bags and the rear of my bike was sagging and either bottoming out or so hard it compressed vertebrae . Absolutely get a spring matched to your weight and all the weight you would normally carry on the bike.

Heres what I did - and what I would do next time.

I bought a Cogent Shock - mainly due to their reputation with the KLR crowd. Also because I had a non-es I wasn't losing any functionality. It's a full replacement custom built shock (for your riding style and weight) at half the cost (~700) of the more expensive name brand solutions. This is a great setup. Absolutely no complaints. - But, if I were going to do it again I would only swap the spring. The stock tenere shock is a really great unit, but the spring is the weak link. Spring swaps are inexpensive and a great way to keep the bike in the optimal first 1/3 of suspension travel with all your touring/adventure gear on the bike.

 

[Spaggy]

I just emailed Wilbers to see if they have anything in the works as far as a replacement ES shock. They do a replacement set for the BMW ESA so maybe we should let them know we're interested. The full Beemer replacement is $1350 for 2 shocks so 1 won't be too bad....I hope.

 

[Karl]

So I did the spring upgrade today, everything went pretty soothly. The 2.5inch spring is pretty tight but works OK.

So rider sag of 83mm with full preload (2up plus luggage setting) is now:

70mm (1up setting)
65mm (1up with luggage setting)
56mm (2up setting)

I did not measure it at 2up plus luggage.

I cant get out to ride it yet, will do a proper write up then.

 

[Tupperware]

Matt was very interested in the ES Tenere though, and promised to look into it and get back to me. If they haven't done anything yet they will need to borrow a bike for a week or so to do their development. I'm about 120 miles from Race Tech, so not super convenient for me. Anyone live close to Corona, CA that has an ES if need be?

120 miles? That's practically in your backyard! I'd be there in a heartbeat.

 

[WJBertrand]

120 miles? That's practically in your backyard! I'd be there in a heartbeat.

Trouble is their hours and my hours and not there on Saturdays.


-Jeff

 

[Rodge]

So I did the spring upgrade today, everything went pretty soothly. The 2.5inch spring is pretty tight but works OK.

So rider sag of 83mm with full preload (2up plus luggage setting) is now:

70mm (1up setting)
65mm (1up with luggage setting)
56mm (2up setting)

I did not measure it at 2up plus luggage.

I cant get out to ride it yet, will do a proper write up then.

Hi Karl,
Congratulation! Always risky to go into the unknown but seems like you did your homework, kudos.
I'm curious on how you manage to address the spring tapering and the spacer, I might tackle that mod if my jack up kit does not meet my needs.
My only concern is the servo motor loading against the higher rate spring, no idea if it will be compromised.
Looking forward for your ride report
Cheers
Rog

 

[Karl]

Could not get out to ride last night...

The spring taper is addressed at the top by packing out the inside edge of the existing seat. This is just to make sure the spring does not wander around (because it is loose on the seat), however the top seat is plenty big enough in outer diameter (see the picture). The taper is addressed at the bottom by the spacer, creating a new seat 10mm higher than the old seat but retaining the old seat inside. I have the CADD for the spacer design, which I will put in my write up. The pre-load servo motor did not seem to struggle through its entire range of motion, however I will be making adjustments on the centre stand I think.

More when I get a ride, hopefully after work today.

 

[Rizzo]

I'm interested in the progress of this thread. How is the heavier spring working in the es? This is something I may have to consider. Although I'm losing more and more weight, I will never be a light guy. I usually go the Ohlins way with my bikes right away but, for some reason, I went with the es version of the Tenere. I'm wondering if I'll regret that decision as time goes on. Hopefully not as there are heavier riders that seem to be happy with the es but I'm a little spoiled when it comes to suspension. I like it set up for me.

 

[iClint]

I'm a heavy guy at currently 130kg. I don't have any issues with the ES. I lifted the bike 1" for some more sound clearance off-road but otherwise find the suspension adequate for a large variety of riding.

I don't understand the need for a spring to match your exact weight on this type of bike unless you only use the bike in a very limited fashion which kinda defeats owning such a bike.

As for ES being a gimmick or not is debatable, but I find myself using the ES a lot. typically the preload gets adjust before every ride for what I am carrying, and the Rebound/compression gets adjusted several times on every trip, because i can.

No need to simply compromise with your settings when you have ES. Cruising down the smooth motorway, enjoy a soft cushy ride. get to a tight twisty road stiffen up the suspension for much better handling doing a combination of twists on a not so great road set the bike for the middle ground.

Is ES a distraction? I don't think so it's no different to using your indicators and a quick glance at your instruments.

My advise to someone looking at buying any bike is forget about all the rubbish you read in print or on the internet and go and ride one of these bikes before forming any opinion that you "need" to change or upgrade anything.

After some time living with the bike you may find that you "want" to change or upgrade something. but rarely does anything "need" to be changed before you even ride the bike off the dealers lot.

 

[WJBertrand]

I'm interested in the progress of this thread. How is the heavier spring working in the es? This is something I may have to consider. Although I'm losing more and more weight, I will never be a light guy. I usually go the Ohlins way with my bikes right away but, for some reason, I went with the es version of the Tenere. I'm wondering if I'll regret that decision as time goes on. Hopefully not as there are heavier riders that seem to be happy with the es but I'm a little spoiled when it comes to suspension. I like it set up for me.

I followed Karl's example and fitted the 550 lb/in (96 N/mm) Eibach spring and have been pretty satisfied with the results. Ride quality is not degraded and the damper seems to be able to handle the stiffer spring without any problem. I'm using the middle +3 damper setting for most preload configurations. I was going back and forth in my head about fitting a 525 lb/in spring (91 N/mm) instead until I got around to checking sag with no luggage mounted and the preload set to one-up. I got about 2.1" or 28% of travel which is right in there with the general rule of thumb to shoot for 25-33% sag. At this point I'm probably going to leave it as is. Now I can use the preload setting that reflects the actual loading condition of the bike. With the OEM spring I was running one to two settings above the actual loading configuration, i.e. using the 2-up setting when I was running one up with only partially filled luggage. Filling the luggage fully had me using the 2-up + luggage setting.

 

[regulator]

Hey Jeff,

Would you make any changes to the spacer now that you've used it, or is Karl's original design adequate?

 

[Karl]

Ill let Jeff answer that but I think the spacer works fine as is. It would be good to have a matching top shock mount because there is sideways slop, which I took out with a packer, a real top mount would be better. Then again the spring may never move sideways....

I am really happy with the rear now, just need to look at the front going forward.

K