R1200GS pricing

[KCW]

My good friend is in the process of deciding whether she wants a R1200GS or a Super Tenere. As you may have assumed, I am encouraging her to pick up a Super Tenere.

Yesterday while on the web, she, her husband, and I looked at the BMW website and built a R1200GS to the spec that she'd like. The price was something like $20,500. If she finances traditionally, via a four year loan, her payments were calculated to be $458/month! Do use BMW's 3 Easy Ride program, where you make 48 payments, then are left with a balloon payment in the end, it would be $250/month. But at the end of the 48 months, she'd still owe about $10,000.

I could not help but to realize that one could buy a 2013 leftover for $8500; $1500 LESS than the balance owned on what would then be a 4 year old bike, after having already paid $12,000 in payments. Or, if financed over 48 months via a traditional loan, her payment would be $194/month, $264 less than the BMW. With that $264 leftover, one could insure, gas, and maintain the motorcycle, and still have money leftover.

I am certain that the R1200GS (water cooled) is a wonderful bike. But is it $264/month -or- $12,000 better? Apparently some think so. I have a difficult time swallowing what could make it that much better.

 

[kurt1305]

I don't see a 2013 leftover as a fair comparison to a 2016 GS. I sold a 2015 GS and bought a 2015 ST. It was still several thousand dollars difference.

 

[TXTenere]

I don't see a 2013 leftover as a fair comparison to a 2016 GS. I sold a 2015 GS and bought a 2015 ST. It was still several thousand dollars difference.

Kurt ... I reviewed your previous posts, but didn't find an answer to this question.
It appears that you owned a 2012 ST that you sold? Then maybe went to a GS and back to a '15 ST? If so, what caused you to switch back and forth?

 

[kurt1305]

I still think the GS is a more refined bike and I prefer the more relaxed ergonomics. I went back to the GS because it is incrementally better in many ways than the ST, but the local dealer retired and sold the dealership to a big box Japanese all-brands retailer. BMW's are expensive to own and maintain and this new dealer seemed intent on squeezing every dime out of me for service. When it became apparent they were also trying to charge for things previously covered by warranty under the original owner, I had enough. Add the shrinking dealer network to the mix and no longer felt like paying the BMW tax. The ST was just too close in every respect since the upgrade in '14. I bought a non-ES leftover on close-out, put on an Ohlins rear shock, added heated grips, taller screen, winglets and a rear rack and haven't looked back.

 

[Calboy]

I still think the GS is a more refined bike and I prefer the more relaxed ergonomics. I went back to the GS because it is incrementally better in many ways than the ST, but the local dealer retired and sold the dealership to a big box Japanese all-brands retailer. BMW's are expensive to own and maintain and this new dealer seemed intent on squeezing every dime out of me for service. When it became apparent they were also trying to charge for things previously covered by warranty under the original owner, I had enough. Add the shrinking dealer network to the mix and no longer felt like paying the BMW tax. The ST was just too close in every respect since the upgrade in '14. I bought a non-ES leftover on close-out, put on an Ohlins rear shock, added heated grips, taller screen, winglets and a rear rack and haven't looked back.

So, you buy a BMW car (1200GS) because is much more refined than a Toyota (Tenere) and after that you realise you couldn't afford maintenance cost for the beemer. You decide to give up on refinement for a cheaper machine to which you add a few after market parts to make it your own. The machine is now "transformed", and so is your take on the whole thing (you never looked back after all). I don't know, but it doesn't make any sense to me. You can do whatever you want to do to a Toyota and it will never be a Beemer and viceversa.

 

[kurt1305]

Well, I wasn't seeking anyones approval.

 

[shrekonwheels]

If money is no issue, then buy what your heart desires, if you are the typical Merican with 500 dollars savings who is maxed out on payments, you have problems to not learn how to compromise.

I do not get the modern logic on Beemer cars bikes etc. In today's world all motorized vehicles are so incredibly nice and dependable all that is really left is price point and what is in your budget, what's suits your needs, that simple.

First world problems ::010::

 

[2112]

Well, I wasn't seeking anyones approval.

Like it Kurt ::008::

 

[Dogdaze]

This sounds a little like a 'Lidl' advert; " I this one, but............ I also like this one!"

 

[Big Blu]

Yep, it's been a few day since the last BMW vs ST discussion.... what took so long!


GSA vs Super Tenere, two great bike but with totally different character and characteristics. Sure the BMW costs more, it's marketed as a premium product and it has more technology that differentiates it from the Super Tenere. For me then technology enhances the riding experience with better handling, fuelling, power, comfort, etc... No need for ECU updates, suspension updates, or additional farkles on my GSA. There is also a very competent and fair BMW dealer network in my area.

Cost of ownership is less for me on the BMW because I'm able to do all the service. Basic service on both bike is about the same, so easy even I can do it. Major service with valve inspection/adj. is also very easy on the BMW boxer motors. Sometimes I do that myself and sometime I'll throw a bone to the dealer to help him keep his lights on. JVB Productions has excellent videos that are very helpful( http://www.jvbproductions.com/). On the ST I didn't have the confidence in my skills to attempt the major service and the Yamaha dealers in my area just plan suck.

Does that mean the BMW is a better bike, nope just different. Both will get you to your destination

It's kinda like the "up town girl" vs "the down town girl", either can get down and dirty, and if you're lucky, you'll be able to try them both. ::024:: You pick the one that floats your boat, ticks your boxes, lights your fuse, etc...

Ride the one that makes ya smile. ::021::

Paul

 

[shredmeister]

"No need for ECU updates, suspension updates, or additional farkles"

Well, I don't feel the need for any of these on my '14 non-ES. And, I'm sure there are hundreds of Gen 1 Teneres out there that people are riding the wheels off of without these "upgrades". Sometimes I read on this forum and think..I need this or that but, not really. Of course, this is my opinion.
Also, I own two BMW cars (not the latest and greatest) and they are nice. Would I pay the price for a new one over a fancy Toyota...No way. I'd take a new FJ 40 to the rough country way before a BMW SUV. OK I'm getting off subject. I will say I considered a GS before my Tenere purchase but, the Tenere is hard to beat (especially for the price) and Yamaha is at the top for motorcycle reliability. Peace of mind when going way off the pavement.
Always respect your opinions though Big Blu! You are true to the GS as many of us are to the Tenere.

 

[HeliMark]

Both bikes are great. I think what would help first is understanding that she needs to ride both and see which she likes better herself. Then, look at the cost of buying both and see what they are willing to afford. Add to that, all bikes are going to have some maintenance and or repairs, and BMW if repairs are needed are going to be more expensive. Just a fact of life. If you have a BMW that has not had a problem, than they are pretty equal.

I had a BMW RT (same engine as the GS) and loved that bike. Would love to own another, but the maintenance cost did me in. I never could agree with the people that kept telling me "you own a premium bike, expect to pay a premium price".

If she loves the GS, then tell her to go for it, and enjoy it. They are really good bikes.

Mark

 

[Big Blu]

"No need for ECU updates, suspension updates, or additional farkles"

Well, I don't feel the need for any of these on my '14 non-ES. And, I'm sure there are hundreds of Gen 1 Teneres out there that people are riding the wheels off of without these "upgrades". Sometimes I read on this forum and think..I need this or that but, not really. Of course, this is my opinion.
Also, I own two BMW cars (not the latest and greatest) and they are nice. Would I pay the price for a new one over a fancy Toyota...No way. I'd take a new FJ 40 to the rough country way before a BMW SUV. OK I'm getting off subject. I will say I considered a GS before my Tenere purchase but, the Tenere is hard to beat (especially for the price) and Yamaha is at the top for motorcycle reliability. Peace of mind when going way off the pavement.
Always respect your opinions though Big Blu! You are true to the GS as many of us are to the Tenere.

I consider myself to be a motorcycle enthusiast, true to the sport not to any one brand. I only mention ECU & suspension upgrade because some here have argued they can add those upgrades, along with a full exhaust system, and their ST performs as well as the BMW. If they believe that it's fine with me.

My experience with reliability is different then what I offen hear. After about 1,000,000 road miles and I've been left stranded by mechanical failures at roadside twice. Once on a Guzzi 1200 Sport( one of my all time favorite bike) and once on my Yamaha FJR. The situation with the Yamaha had me stranded for five days. It was a defective ring antenna ring antenna in the ignition switch, no spares were available in the USA. There was a nos FJR AE on the floor but the dealer refused to remove that switch to get me on the road, even when I agreed to pay for the switch and the labor cost to remove/replace the switch on my bike. Finally, after threatening legal action, he begrudgingly died the job. A few weeks later Yamaha issued a recall notice for the ignition switch because of this common fault. Yamaha did reinburst me for the cost of the switch and labor but not for 5 days food, lodging, and rental car. It was that experience with with a shit head dealer that helped me understand the importance of strong customer support. All modern motorcycles are pretty damn reliable but none are bullet proof. Not a all dealers provide good service, and warranty customer service vary by brand. Just wanted to share my actual experience so you know why dealer support is so important to me.

No doubt the ST is an excellent value for the price. ::009::

Paul

 

[Big Blu]

Checks......

I'd like to hear more about the two failures you had on the BMW's, not your "friends".
Year, model, miles?
Bikes new to you?
About the failure?

On the '14 RT shock problems:
Issue was during very early production and identified as a vendor issue, not an excuse but an explanation.
BMW recognized the problem and immediately issued a "top ride".
Sent notice to dealers and to owners.
Many dealers provided owners other bikes to use during the stop ride.
Fix was quickly developed and made available.
Owners in the US were given a choice. 1) BMW would buy back the bike at full purchase price. 2) BMW would apply the fix and reimburse the owner $2000 cash for their inconvenience.

According to my dealer principal, the vast majority of US owners chose to keep their RT and take the $2000 cash.
The limited number of RT's that were bought back were sold as used with deep discounts if permitted in the state they were purchased. It was a good time to buy an almost new "14 RT if you could find one.

If you subscribe to the fact that manufacturing errors can occur and shit does happen then this is just one of those situations.
I believe the response from BMW was suburb, it exceeded my expectations, that of most owners, and the dealer were satisfied. It's a response that we should all expect from our manufactures and dealers. I think many Yamaha owners would have like to had that kind of response to the early CCT issue and the clutch vibration issue.

Certainty BMW's reputation for reliability during from about 2008-2011 was suffering, there were a few issues and BMW failed to acknowledge them. The Consumers Report survey and a near revolt by BMW dealer seem to have awaken the mothership. They issued recalls for a few nagging problems, for a fuel pump flange leak, a rear wheel flange issue, extended the warranty on switch gear, and extended the warranty to 12 years on fuel strip. These were not new problems but they had been ignored by BMW and it was welcome relief to see them FINALLLY step up!

The LC's are a total and complete new design and focus was put on quality during the development process. One example final drive, it's been beefed up and is now very similar to that used on the K models. Their effort seem to be paying off. So far the reliability of the LC's appears to be excellent with no failure trends reported. Only time and miles will tell if BMW has returned to producing products with quality worthy of being labeled a premium product.

Sure, they'll be occasional failures, that happens with all thing produced by man, no?
Sure, you may hear more about BMW failures. Remember, BMW produces a shit load of boxer powered motorcycle way way more then Yamaha produces ST's.
Sure, BMW owners pay a premium price and expect a premium product, premium service, and premium support... and they whine a lot!
Sure, owners of other brands take great pleasure in bashing BMW's and BMW owners, ferreting out every BMW failure and plastering it all over the interweb. I've seem that BMW final drive fire dozens of times, it become legend! It's been posted a few times here and comes up in almost every discussion about BMW's here.

I waited 2 years after the introduction of the LC motor before deciding to order my '15 GSA with a low suspension. I wanted to feel confident in the quality of the new LC products. After 13 months of ownership and 15k miles I'm delighted with the GSA, so mush so that last month I traded my '11 R1200R for a'15 R12OOR! Nut'n like ride'n a boxer, they really really make me smile! ::024::

Paul

 

[Checkswrecks]

In the words of AvGeek on a previous and nearly identical thread:

I said keep this thread civil, and I had to remove posts that violated that, so this thread is once again closed, and I will not re-open it. I will also remove any more BMW threads that are started here, as they seem to be the ones requiring the most action.

This thread's gone down the rabbit hole and is now locked, with a number of posts removed.