Re: Pet Peeves
snakebitten said:
Can I ask something though?
First, as a service department manager, AND a forum reader, you are in a unique position to see both sides of the equation.
As a forum reading customer, there have been times that I was way more versed on an issue with my bike or my truck than the actual folks that were being asked to fix the problem. For example, I bought a 2004 F350 truck that had a recently introduced motor in it. Because of a forum, I knew exactly what was causing the problem and also knew which sensor needed to be changed. But the service department staff completely ignored the "all knowing customer", that I am sure they were thinking I was, and tried all kinds of wasted attempts to diagnose the problem. They even gave up and sent me on the road with their very expensive diagnostics hardware plugged into the ODB connector. They were hoping to have a record of the next time the truck "stumbled".
All along, because of the forum, I was almost 100% sure I needed an egp sensor. And it had been the fix for lots of other folks on the forum with the same motor and symptoms.
I drove around a couple of days and returned the diagnostic tools. Because they couldn't isolate the issue themselves, they had no recourse but to say sorry. Bring it back if it acts up again.
I just lived with the stumble. I had no choice. A few months later I get a notice for a recall on my egp sensor.
Drove that truck for 7 more years. Never had another stumble after they replaced the sensor.
My point is this.........
I realize that an educated customer can be a pain in the butt sometimes. But so can the uneducated. Which do you prefer?
Glad to respond, Snake...
First and foremost, I said I cringe when a customer says, "I was reading a forum and..." - I didn't say I ignore them. Let's be real for just a second though - and I've been around forums for cars, trucks, and bikes since the mid 90's - there is way more misinformation on many forums than there is tangible, reliable, hard data. In the service and repair business we are bound to deal with the real data - if not - major tail-chasing will ensue wasting everyone's time.
Quite simply there are too many variables in play here for me, whose only want is to fix your car, to really deal with forum-diagnostics.
Let me name a few:
- The technical knowledge of the customer. Do they remotely understand what they're reading on the forum and does it even apply to their car?
- Is the car actually having an issue, or did they read about someone else having the issue and now think they are? It happens...
- The technical knowledge of those doling out advise on the forum. I've got technicians with more training, knowledge, and experience than you can imagine. Three of my guys are ASE Masters with L1, and are Platinum level factory trained (it takes years to get there) and hour upon hour every year to maintain that level of certification. In other words, it's not just a nice plaque - these guys are the real deal (and I'll admit I'm damn lucky to have them) most shops don't have one. Do I trust them or some kid with a laptop diagnosing his car?
- Is the problem the customer is reading about - and now having - a regional issue that doesn't affect cars in the south? Yep...heat, humidity, and salt air at sea-level, etc. will create a whole host of issues someone in Denver will never see and vice versa. But it is a Worldwide web.
- The manufacture requires that we duplicate the problem before performing a repair. I can't throw a $1500 control module in your car on the advice of a forum (or anyone else for that matter) if I can't see that the control module is bad. If I do - I just bought a $1500 control module (and the labor to install it) because the manufacture isn't going to pay for it. If it's a non-warranty situation, you're paying for it and insist, I'll advise against it because I can't refund you for the labor nor take the part back if it doesn't work.
- This may sound jaded, but I have neither the time nor inclination to sift through hundreds of pages of a forum thread to determine the technical merit of the advice being given.
- And why would I? I've got a library of well-sorted technical information that goes way deeper than any forum ever could - and a field engineer on speed-dial that has access to the stuff that hasn't been released to the dealership level yet.
Okay that was the Service Manager answer to your question - onward to the forum reader guy that I am.
If a customer is dealing with an issue that could possible be a safety-related or potentially stranding issue, and they've found information online that could be helpful I'll take the time to read it. So will my technicians. Again, our only want is to fix your car. If it looks viable to me and my technician I'll call the engineer I spoke about earlier, plead my case and ask to give it a try. Most times he will authorize the repair (if he's not already familiar with the problem and knows a fix) and request a lot of data from our scan tool before and after the attempted repair. This helps build his database and can help others across the country to get a solid fix for sometimes extremely intermittent problems.
I'm certainly not 'anti-forum' - but the reality of the situation is they rarely have it right. Certain problems can present very closely to others, but have completely different causes. Here's an example of one we fixed but didn't get paid for:
Customer is experiencing a stumble at highway speeds when applying steady, light throttle. No warning lights, but a definite stumble. I went for a ride with the customer to see for myself what was going on (we hadn't had this complaint on this model before) so I could show the technician what was happening. The customer was able to duplicate the problem, and sure enough, it was a stumblin'. I drove next so that I could be sure to duplicate the stumble consistently like the customer did. I put the customer in a loaner car and sent him on his way.
My technician hooked up the scan tool and went for a ride with me so we could get some live data shots of what was going on. There were multiple, random misfires registering when the stumble occurred, but not enough to set a code (which would trigger a check-engine light), but you could definitely feel it happening. My tech called 'techline' who advised him to check a couple of things and replace the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). My tech didn't like the answer and asked me to take him for another spin. While monitoring the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) he noticed under those exact conditions an irregular signal coming from the TPS that was out of specified range. He called techline back and told them his findings, and suggested we replace the TPS instead of the PCM. "Nope", they said. "The TPS isn't the cause, you should replace the PCM."
My tech disagreed and came to me. I told him to replace the TPS (about $800 less than the PCM) and we'd take it for a spin and see what happened. The new TPS eliminated the stumble - no misfires - and a clean signal throughout the throttle range. Car fixed, tech happy, customer happy, Creggur happy. Until...
Three weeks later I got notified that the Warranty Test Center had requested and tested the TPS we'd replaced and determined it to be in fine working order - warranty claim denied and charged back. I fought that thing for six months to no avail. We lost about $900 on that repair.
I know this story has nothing to do with forums, but I share it as an example of what dealerships run up against in warranty situations. We fixed the car, but got charged back because the TPS passed a bench test in a warehouse somewhere even though we had data showing the irregular signal in that certain situation. Now imagine replacing parts with no data to back us up... we just can't.
Hope that answered your question, and I hope I didn't come across as "Anti-Forum" because I'm really not - it's just that in 99.9% of the cases it's not an effective tool in diagnosing a problem.
**Quick Edit**
I just realized I didn't answer the last question of your post. I have no preference on whether a customer is educated or not - I can deal with either just as effectively. I also have to take into account the quality of the customer's education ( I think I alluded to that in my Service Manager answer) - but it really doesn't matter to me. I'm happy to talk shop, problems, or technical information with anyone at any level. I'll admit if I'm wrong, or if the customer knows something I don't (I certainly don't know everything...not even close). I'm also happy to share and show our customers exactly what we're looking at and doing to repair their car anytime.
If you have any more questions, or if I didn't answer something adequately, ask away...
