Overall Gearing

[Dazza]

Hello Everyone,

Excuse my silly questions, I'm only a newbie and am thinking of buying a S10, but I am concerned about the overall gearing being too tall for Australian conditions. A lot of out tracks here are slow, slippery fire trails littered with loose rocks and a low 1st gear would be important, as slipping the clutch all the time would not be ideal.
Can anyone answer these questions please: 1. How slow can you go in 1st gear without slipping the clutch (I mean at idle)? 2. I've noticed the bevel gears (inside the gearbox) at the gearbox output have a different number of teeth on each, does any Yamaha technician know if these can be changed around to lower the overall gearing please? Thanks in advance!

 

[markjenn]

The S10 seems geared pretty high to me. I'd guess it is about like a standard GS and geared higher than a GSA.

I don't know what the vehicle speed is at idle, but I doubt that is a useful number anyway as the engine will not take any kind of load at idle. I've done some slow running and my experience is that the engine seems reasonably happy and will take load nicely at speeds above about 15 mph. From 10-15 mph, you may need to slip the clutch depending on load. Below 10 mph, you pretty much have to slip the clutch all the time.

So I'd surmise to say that if you think you're going to have to be consistently be navigating terrain at speeds below 15 mph, you may want to look at a different bike. Of course, if the terrain requires speeds below 15 mph it is likely pretty challenging and there may be other reasons why you need something other than a 600-lb adventure touring bike. IOW, I think the S10's gearing is consistent with its mission and that mission doesn't include rock-crawling.

From what you're saying, I'd be looking closely at chain-drive bikes that allow you to easily adjust gearing.

I'm now aware of any options for fitting lower gearing to the S10 and I'd be surprised if anybody in the after market is doing anything. If this would happen, I would bet it would come from Yamaha as an element of a more off-road oriented version of the S10, like BMW has done with the GSA.

- Mark

 

[rem]

Howdy, Dazza, and welcome to the Forum. I hope you make the plunge and end up with a Super Tenere. I can't answer your question in any intelligent fashion, but there are those who lurk amongst us who can. They will chime in soon and will offer you more info than you probably require. Good luck to you and again, welcome. R

 

[colorider]

Welcome to the forum Dazza! Years ago when the first R1150GS was introduced, a common complaint was the high gearing on them. Later it was discovered that the gear set in the rear drive could be swapped out with one from the older R1100GS which had lower gears. I did this on mine and it made a nice improvement, at the expense of running at higher RPM's at any given speed. It would have been better if the first gear in the tranny could have been changed, as I think you are describing.

I doubt there is enough demand for any after market offering for either the tranny option or the rear drive.

Rod

 

[Ron_Luning]

After changing the CO setting and airscrew position, I have found the bike to idle smoothly with only me onboard, even uphill, at a steady 8mph. Before making those changes, the fuel delivery at low rpm was too poor to idle in gear without slipping the clutch.

 

[stevepsd]

The bike is geared to high overall. In my off-road experience with the ST, anything under 8 MPH or so you will be using feathering the clutch all the time. However I have not had one issue with the clutch overheating or misbehaving at all after extensive running (hours & hours) at very low, crawling speeds.

 

[tomatocity]

The Super Tenere continues to remind me of the KLR. Wanting a lower 1st gear and a higher last gear or another final gear.

With the wide powerband the Super Tenere has you would think they could have spread the gearing out more than what it is. 4,000 RPMs at 80 MPH is not too bad except the gas mileage drop off after 3,500 RPMs (at least on my Tenere).

Tomorrow I am setting the CO and syncing the TBs.

 

[markjenn]

The Super Tenere continues to remind me of the KLR. Wanting a lower 1st gear and a higher last gear or another final gear.

You want a higher 6th? Wow, the thing is already extremely tall - it almost feels like you're lugging the engine at speeds less than 80 or so. I can't think of another bike that is geared any taller.

- Mark

 

[Dazza]

Welcome to the forum Dazza! Years ago when the first R1150GS was introduced, a common complaint was the high gearing on them. Later it was discovered that the gear set in the rear drive could be swapped out with one from the older R1100GS which had lower gears. I did this on mine and it made a nice improvement, at the expense of running at higher RPM's at any given speed. It would have been better if the first gear in the tranny could have been changed, as I think you are describing.

I doubt there is enough demand for any after market offering for either the tranny option or the rear drive.

Rod

Hi Rod (and others!),

Thanks for your replies, I guess we have some odd trails out here, a you can be riding on fire trails for hours, then turn off onto a secondary trail and there will be one section that you look at and think 'I wish I had a lower 1st gear'. I imagine (as not owning an S10 yet!), that they would go anywhere my 4WD would go??Or is that being too optimistic??

Yes, from my understanding, BMW released the R1200GS with a lower overall gearing, which was done in the rear differential and also I believe that their R1200 GSA (Adventure model) also has a lower 1st gear set in the gearbox.

Now in respect of the S10 transmission (or gearbox) I am NOT refering to the 1st gear gearset, but the set of bevel gears that transmit the power at right angles to the shaft drive. Somewhere in this forum is a picture of the gearbox pulled apart and if you look at the photo you will see 2 bevel gears, one is on the gearsahft and one is on the output shaft. These bevel gears are arranged so that the output shaft is in an 'overdrive' configuration, that is to say that there are more teeth on the drive gear than on the driven gear.

If you look in your owner's manual, it says something about the "secondary gear ratio" which is a combination of BOTH the final rear drive ratio AND these 2 bevel gears ratio.

Now this is my line of thinking - if these 2 gears could be reversed, this would reduce the overall gearing instantly. I'll see if I can get some specific data and do a 'proper' post with all the numbers.

In Australia, our legal limit on most open roads is 62 mph (100kmh) so in theory at our (legal) top speed limit, the engine would only be doing around 3000 RPM, so you can see why a reduction in gearing might help with slow speed work without raising the revs too much at cruising speed.


Regards Dazza

 

[macca]

After getting some longer rides in on mine I think that top gear is spot on for the bikes capabilities, and that 1st is probably just about right once you have some confidence in the bikes balance, lower would bring into question the terrain the bike is going over, as said rock crawling probably isnt its forte and certainly not with a stock placcy or ally sumpguard.

 

[colorider]

After getting some longer rides in on mine I think that top gear is spot on for the bikes capabilities, and that 1st is probably just about right once you have some confidence in the bikes balance, lower would bring into question the terrain the bike is going over, as said rock crawling probably isnt its forte and certainly not with a stock placcy or ally sumpguard.

I agree. If I come up on some terrain that makes me want a lower first gear, I probably shouldn't be trying it anyway on this bike. 20 or 30 years ago yes, but not today.
::26::

 

[Koinz]

::004::

You want a higher 6th? Wow, the thing is already extremely tall - it almost feels like you're lugging the engine at speeds less than 80 or so. I can't think of another bike that is geared any taller.

- Mark

The Dl1000 is pretty tall, especially noticeable since the engine doesn't have any get up and go until you get above 4k

At least our ST's can run in the lower rpm range.

 

[markjenn]

Now this is my line of thinking - if these 2 gears could be reversed, this would reduce the overall gearing instantly.

I'd be flabbergasted if this was possible. It would have to be designed in from the beginning to do this and I doubt it was. And I doubt we're going to see anything in the after market - too much engineering and expense for extremely limited market.

The S10 is a bike where you find the stock gearing acceptable or you buy a different bike. Again, I'd recommend you look first at chain-drive bikes.

- Mark

 

[Dazza]

Hi Mark,

It appears to me from the photos on this site (sorry I'm only a newbie and don't know how to copy/past them yet) of the gearbox internals, that the 2 bevel gears (that send the power to the driveshaft) could be altered (were designed by the Yamaha engineers??) to change the final drive ratio. It is possible in theory to swap them over (I did say in theory!!) but the overall reduction in gearing would be too great (at around 41.5%) that is why I thought there might be a Yamaha factory option??

I did some number crunching, here is what I found:


Primary Ratio: 85/58 = 1.466 (that's the number of teeth on the clutch drum gear/crankshaft drive gear

Gearbox Ratio; (1st gear) 36/13 = 2.769 (that's the number of teeth on the driven gear teeth/drive gear teeth

Secondary Ratio: 21/25 x 32/9 = 2.987 (that's the number of teeth on the bevel drive gear (next to the torque spring) /number of teeth on the bevel driven gear (on the output shaft) multiplied by the number of teeth on the hypoid crown wheel/hypoid pinion gear

So for reference, the overall gear ratio in 1st gear is:

Primary x secondary x gearbox ratios = 1.466 x 2.769 x 2.987 = 12.13:1

If I had the diameter of the rear drive wheel (anyone help please??) I could figure out the theoretical slowest speed in 1st gear.

It is also possible in theory to change the final hypoid pinion gear, standard has 9 teeth, dropping a tooth to 8 teeth would lower the gearing by 12.485%

But what does all this mean I hear you say? Well in my mind, if 1st gear is too tall, it is the difference between riding for hours, then having to turn back around and find another way to where you are going. I'm not joking, there are videos on Youtube showing other bikes (K*M's that are nearly as heavy) going ANYWHERE you can ride an off road bike!!!

Because the GPS doesn't take into account rough roads, you only find out when you get there. I suppose that is part of the fun of Adventure bikes though- just find another trail!


Darryl

 

[GrahamD]

This will give you an idea Dazz what standard will do off road if you watch it all. (Depending on the size if your nads size of course)

You can see it taken to about its limits. Now if you want to do nothing but dirt from QLD to WA over dunes, I would be looking at DR650's or 400 class bikes but you know what you will be doing.

XT1200z First Birthday Part2 HD

You may also want to have a talk to Wasp (same handle on ADV and here) Bargenator (Adv) Edog200 (KTM Man) regards off road.

Cheers
Graham

 

[markjenn]

I'm curious why you're so set on making the S10 work. There are better choices if highly-technical, slow-speed, off-road riding are important to you. The difference between a KTM950/990 and the S10 are night and day in this regard.

If the difficult sections are just occasional bumps in the road with the rest not so challenging, then just slip the clutch. That's what it is there for and wet clutches will generally take a lot of abuse and are easy to replace.

- Mark

 

[GrahamD]

I'm curious why you're so set on making the S10 work. There are better choices if highly-technical, slow-speed, off-road riding are important to you. The difference between a KTM950/990 and the S10 are night and day in this regard.

If the difficult sections are just occasional bumps in the road with the rest not so challenging, then just slip the clutch. That's what it is there for and wet clutches will generally take a lot of abuse and are easy to replace.

- Mark

Because he is an Auzie and we don't let little things like a couple of cogs get in our way if everything else is fine, Do we Dazz.

Secondly, if he does pop in a few mods, I am sure that he will probably be able to unload a few to a few others around the joint. We need a Dazz around here.

 

[Koinz]

This will give you an idea Dazz what standard will do off road if you watch it all. (Depending on the size if your nads size of course)

You can see it taken to about its limits. Now if you want to do nothing but dirt from QLD to WA over dunes, I would be looking at DR650's or 400 class bikes but you know what you will be doing.

XT1200z First Birthday Part2 HD

You may also want to have a talk to Wasp (same handle on ADV and here) Bargenator (Adv) Edog200 (KTM Man) regards off road.

Cheers
Graham

Great Video ::012:: ::012:: ::012:: Where's part 1 and 3 ??

 

[GrahamD]

Great Video ::012:: ::012:: ::012:: Where's part 1 and 3 ??

Part 1

XT1200z First Birthday Part1 HD

Part 3 is not around YET. But it is coming.

 

[markjenn]

we don't let little things like a couple of cogs get in our way if everything else is fine, Do we Dazz.

Good luck changing out your "couple of cogs" on a shaft drive bike. Knock yourself out.

- Mark