It isnt the panniers, its us putting our foot out from habit. I have done it on the Tenere with OEM bags, and on my KLR with ammo cans. It sucks either way, but have been lucky, only bruises. Bad habit from riding dirt bikes and bicycles, hard as hell to break( no PUN intended).
OEM Panniers = Ankle Breakers in fall?
- Thread starter Bushyar15
- Start date
For me I didn't put my foot out/down…It all happened too fast for me to do that. One second upright, the next on my back with the pannier on my ankle. I spent way too many years roadracing where you don't put your foot out/down when things start to go bad cause when you do you've lost some of the control of your bike and if the pavement "grabs" your boot its gonna be way worse. Putting your foot down roadracing doesn't help you in any way…
When Carl went down I was looking right at him as he was coming towards me. I didn't see him make any attempt to put his foot down. The bike "snaked" in the sand and he fell to the right and rolled off.. Not saying he didn't, but I didn't see it...
I think MX boots are a good idea and had considered them. Here are my two concerns regarding them; They don't appear to have a very aggressive tread pattern. How do they work if you have to pick up or push your bike in mud? sand? snow? rocks? I would think with the lack of tread, you'd be slipping. Then there is what I call the "ski boot" injury aspect. Ski boots do a great job of keeping your lower leg/ankle from twisting or the like. But ski boots do tend to move the twisting point or injury point up to the knee. So, I'm thinking it becomes 6 of one, half a dozen of another… You are only moving where the injury would occur?
I appreciate all the responses...
When Carl went down I was looking right at him as he was coming towards me. I didn't see him make any attempt to put his foot down. The bike "snaked" in the sand and he fell to the right and rolled off.. Not saying he didn't, but I didn't see it...
I think MX boots are a good idea and had considered them. Here are my two concerns regarding them; They don't appear to have a very aggressive tread pattern. How do they work if you have to pick up or push your bike in mud? sand? snow? rocks? I would think with the lack of tread, you'd be slipping. Then there is what I call the "ski boot" injury aspect. Ski boots do a great job of keeping your lower leg/ankle from twisting or the like. But ski boots do tend to move the twisting point or injury point up to the knee. So, I'm thinking it becomes 6 of one, half a dozen of another… You are only moving where the injury would occur?
I appreciate all the responses...
Bushy,
The tread on the adventure boots is for just what you mentioned. The earlier poster referring to the thread and it being a problem in a fall is correct but you can't walk around on a trail very well let alone pick up a bike on a slope.
I'm not sure any of the MX bikes are water resistant as well, but they will work better if you drag your foot due to the sole.
Everything is a trade off, just like tires. Pick a point on the spectrum where you want to be and go for it. If protection is your priority then and MX boot is the way to go. If you go that route rest assured someone will question your choice and say there are 'better options' out there. Just do your own thing......
The tread on the adventure boots is for just what you mentioned. The earlier poster referring to the thread and it being a problem in a fall is correct but you can't walk around on a trail very well let alone pick up a bike on a slope.
I'm not sure any of the MX bikes are water resistant as well, but they will work better if you drag your foot due to the sole.
Everything is a trade off, just like tires. Pick a point on the spectrum where you want to be and go for it. If protection is your priority then and MX boot is the way to go. If you go that route rest assured someone will question your choice and say there are 'better options' out there. Just do your own thing......
Just yesterday I was riding some dirt/gravel roads and while rounding a slow 90 degree corner I had the front wash out. I put my foot down (didn't even know that was bad) and for all intents and purposes, saved the bike from going down, but paid for it by getting the crap knocked out of my calf by my panniers. Hurt for a while and I realized that it would be easy to snap something in the right circumstances.
Yesterday I needed my bags on because I was hauling stuff up to the lake but in the future I'm going to be more conscious of removing them regardless of the anticipated roads I'll be riding. Just leave the top case in place for incidentals. I guess in the past I always considered them great sliders that'll protect the bike and me.
Yesterday I needed my bags on because I was hauling stuff up to the lake but in the future I'm going to be more conscious of removing them regardless of the anticipated roads I'll be riding. Just leave the top case in place for incidentals. I guess in the past I always considered them great sliders that'll protect the bike and me.
Hey trikepilot, you can use my hard panniers for a footstool anytime! (see, he actually DOES think they have a good purpose after all) Yes, I remove them when riding off road. Leave em at camp. (thus seats or footstool) But for on road, they are an awesome luxury. Waterproof containers for everything. Laptops, groceries, rain gear.........
The OEM panniers may ding easily but they are certainly plenty strong enough to break a leg. I've seen the OEM boxes survive a Tenere high side and land on one.
Since writing the WebBikeWorld article, (ref. http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycles/yamaha-super-tenere/) it now appears to have been wrong in saying that the boxes may have prevented further injury. After going through additional reports and meeting other riders who've broken their lower legs in a similar manner, the injuries that Tenere rider fit well with what we now know happens when a foot goes under a box.
As Trikepilot wrote, unless the boxes are in active use, I've been leaving mine off the bike.
Since writing the WebBikeWorld article, (ref. http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycles/yamaha-super-tenere/) it now appears to have been wrong in saying that the boxes may have prevented further injury. After going through additional reports and meeting other riders who've broken their lower legs in a similar manner, the injuries that Tenere rider fit well with what we now know happens when a foot goes under a box.
As Trikepilot wrote, unless the boxes are in active use, I've been leaving mine off the bike.
I knew someone would bring up the Rossi leg wave....There is a good story behind it and it has nothing to do with actually/physically helping the rider... this is one of many articles debunking/explaining it;
https://motomatters.com/opinion/2009/07/22/the_truth_behind_the_rossi_leg_wave.html 'nuff said lets save that discussion for another thread
I won't argue with you regarding peg and body steering off-road, I agree
https://motomatters.com/opinion/2009/07/22/the_truth_behind_the_rossi_leg_wave.html 'nuff said lets save that discussion for another thread
I won't argue with you regarding peg and body steering off-road, I agree
FredBGG said:Hmmm. Racers often put their foot down as well as sometimes stick it out way backwards to stabilize somewhat like a dogs tail.
If you watch current races you will see racers put their foot out and even drift the back wheel.
https://youtu.be/HusniLw9i68
I also use my feet on the ground when on dirt. You just have to do it the right way. You need to put your foot down way forward,
heel to the dirt and toes up. As you make contact open up the throttle.
I actually find that I sometimes bonk the engine guards with the front of my shin when I throw my foot forward for some foot ground work.
Not a problem as I always where hard shell dual axis knee/shin guards. Leatt are really good.
However nearly all the time I'm standing on the pegs on the balls of my feet. Heel low ready to push down on the correct peg
using the large calf muscle. It's how to keep the bike up and gripping as well as how to steer the beast in dirt.
The S10 has quite wide pegs and as such foot peg steering is actually remarkably effective despite the mass of the bike.
The low center of gravity also helps.
On street you would be amazed at how well using your foot peg steering makes the bike really responsive..... you can flick the big S10 around.
I find that bar counter steering alone does not cut it with the S10. Shifting weight on the pegs is also loads of fun. However you must have your feet
on the ball of your feet so as to have a longer and more modulated control of your feet. It does mean that sitting you will have your
legs bent more, but you benefit from moving the whole leg around by rocking your ankles up and down to make all your leg joints more around.
A great way to practice peg steering is you find a nice big straight road with not through traffic and get to the point that you can
steer the bike just with your feet barely touching the bar with your palm. Avoid the temptation to stick your hands in the air
I fought a friend of mine how to do this. About Six months later he was hit by something that flew out of a truck. It sacked his hand really badly and broke three fingers. He told me that he is convinced he would have crashed if he did not know how to peg steer his bike. Not that he steered it to a stop with his feet, but that he recovered the bike by shoving the right weight on his pegs after the hit.
The best thing about peg steering is that your legs due to the fact that they are developed for walking, running, balance, standing etc etc your legs and nervous system
are very good in execution of muscle memory movement.
What a GREAT article Bushy -Bushyar15 said:I knew someone would bring up the Rossi leg wave....There is a good story behind it and it has nothing to do with actually/physically helping the rider... this is one of many articles debunking/explaining it;
https://motomatters.com/opinion/2009/07/22/the_truth_behind_the_rossi_leg_wave.html 'nuff said lets save that discussion for another thread
I won't argue with you regarding peg and body steering off-road, I agree
Thanks!
::008::
I’m with Fred on the need for highly protective MX boots which have smooth soles when on an MX track, when somewhere dry like southern Cal, or somewhere rocky. Or at least the smooth sole is not the negative in those limited uses, so please don’t take this as a knock on Fred for writing from his perspective. As a kid, I used to race 250s (poorly ) at Indian Dunes in SoCal, and played in the desert when I worked at Palmdale, so can relate to the perspective.
However, what makes total sense in Southern California makes no sense for most of the US or Europe. The rest of the world has rain and mud and leaves in the woods and people are not on motocross tracks. The AlpineStar Toucans Gaernes, and other high end ADV boots with cleated soles were purpose bred for where most of us live. Our world looks like this:
Anybody who has lived with relatively smooth soled boots in muddy environments knows that smooth soles are going to constantly slip when off of the bike. Pushing or steadying a bike when on a muddy slope or climbing hills is normal for most of the year in most of the country, and you just can’t do it well with smooth soles. You end up on your knees. Think about which the average person does more in mud - Simply stand and maneuver the bikes? Or slide a foot in some motocross-style cornering?
Smooth soles for us are somewhere between a pain in the ass and suicidal in asking for a sprains from falling constantly. Further, when on the bike, the cleated soles do a FAR better job of not slipping on footpegs carrying wet leaves or mud.
Discussing protection and continuing to use the Toucans as an example, they ARE high-end hard-shell motocross boots above the tread, right down to the hinged ankle with hard stops to limit how far the ankle can be displaced up/down. Compared to leather boots and the old style MX boots, I have no fear of footpeg impalement or twisting an ankle. PLUS the Gaernes and Toucans are comfy enough to wear all day and walk in for longer distances.
Sorry for the tangent about potential injury from hard boxes vs soft. I guess the bottom line about both the boxes and boots is to pick the right tool for the job.
) at Indian Dunes in SoCal, and played in the desert when I worked at Palmdale, so can relate to the perspective.However, what makes total sense in Southern California makes no sense for most of the US or Europe. The rest of the world has rain and mud and leaves in the woods and people are not on motocross tracks. The AlpineStar Toucans Gaernes, and other high end ADV boots with cleated soles were purpose bred for where most of us live. Our world looks like this:
Anybody who has lived with relatively smooth soled boots in muddy environments knows that smooth soles are going to constantly slip when off of the bike. Pushing or steadying a bike when on a muddy slope or climbing hills is normal for most of the year in most of the country, and you just can’t do it well with smooth soles. You end up on your knees. Think about which the average person does more in mud - Simply stand and maneuver the bikes? Or slide a foot in some motocross-style cornering?
Smooth soles for us are somewhere between a pain in the ass and suicidal in asking for a sprains from falling constantly. Further, when on the bike, the cleated soles do a FAR better job of not slipping on footpegs carrying wet leaves or mud.
Discussing protection and continuing to use the Toucans as an example, they ARE high-end hard-shell motocross boots above the tread, right down to the hinged ankle with hard stops to limit how far the ankle can be displaced up/down. Compared to leather boots and the old style MX boots, I have no fear of footpeg impalement or twisting an ankle. PLUS the Gaernes and Toucans are comfy enough to wear all day and walk in for longer distances.
Sorry for the tangent about potential injury from hard boxes vs soft. I guess the bottom line about both the boxes and boots is to pick the right tool for the job.
navynuke
Well-Known Member
While heavy boots help, and MX boots can be had with good tread, usually look at ATV versions, hard boxes add another damage point to off road get offs at both high and low speed.
Look at boots similar to this
http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/moose-racing-m12-ce-boots-atv-sole
where they replace the sole with a more appropriate one. Thor/Moose/MSR all do this, I believe Alpinestars used to as well.
I enjoy the hard bags for mostly highway trips, riding with the wife on trips, or some easy graded roads, anything else and I start looking at other options. I like the Giant loop bag I was able to borrow for my last trip, although it scuffed up the plastic exhaust cover pretty good during the journey.
Or something similar to this overnight camping setup I took to Death Valley a while ago.
Look at boots similar to this
http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/moose-racing-m12-ce-boots-atv-sole
where they replace the sole with a more appropriate one. Thor/Moose/MSR all do this, I believe Alpinestars used to as well.
I enjoy the hard bags for mostly highway trips, riding with the wife on trips, or some easy graded roads, anything else and I start looking at other options. I like the Giant loop bag I was able to borrow for my last trip, although it scuffed up the plastic exhaust cover pretty good during the journey.
Or something similar to this overnight camping setup I took to Death Valley a while ago.
No way in heck can Bushy or me kick a notch into one of these hard packed clay trails with shale or decomposing granite on them in the mountains of Colorado west of Denver. The soil and trails are even different west of Fort Collins to boot.FredBGG said:
This goes to the different conditions depending upon where you are. Tires also jump to mind here too. What works where you call home most likely will not where where I call home.
I don't know how to say this again, but there is no muck, dirt or other substance to remove here in 95% of the instances I ride in.FredBGG said:
Anyway, back to the original topic. It seems many folks have had trouble with hard cases.
What I'm not sure about is it due to the 90 degree corners on most boxes or is it just the hard case? I can go with soft bags but will lose some storage space.
low drag said:
The answer is that it is whichever can place and hold (even for just a moment) a load on the back of your leg, which is not the situation that the BMW rider is in when the photo was taken. (It is amazing how far joints can move before bones break!)
If the soft bags have tools and cans of beans at the bottom then they probably are not much better than the hard boxes of identical shape. The South African I mentioned (Peter) had Wolfman soft luggage with his heavy hard stuff at the bottom and said the bags were pretty rigid. But common sense is that rounded edges are more likely for you to slide out like in the BMW photo and softer materials can distribute loads better.
After a long talk about it with the South African rider and then a lot of research (hey checking wrecks is me
), the injury pattern when panniers are involved is very repetitive. First, lower extremity injuries are a large portion of injuries categorized as worst in an accident, so lower leg injuries are more likely to keep me from being able to continue riding. Riding is one of my passions so I'm interested in minimizing my risk.
Association For The Advancement Of Automotive Medicine
On to pannier involvement and here is how Ted Simon wrote about his fall in Hubb:
[quote author=tedsimon]
...Hello everyone, from the comfort of an armchair in Lorraine's convalescent home where we have an excellent view of giraffe and occasional visits from baboons. Yesterday was my birthday, and we made the most of the occasion...
However, what broke was the fibula at last I know what that is? and it's not so serious. The professor screwed a bloody great plate across the break, and I plan to be back on the bike by the end of the month. If Barry Sheene can do it, so can I...
What happened? Well, it was supposed to be dry, and it rained. The first part of the road south of Moyale is dirt, which translates into mud. Me, my bike and my tyres were simply not at their best in these conditions. I fell over a couple of times before the break, but that was just inconvenient. The main problem, it seems to me, is that the boxes are just a bit too long and come too far forward. I defy anyone not to put a leg down when the bike is obviously going over, and the mud dragged my foot back under the box. Even so, it was an unlucky fall. I still remember the crack ? first time in my life I've heard it ? and the rest is history which you will read about in full detail on my web site as soon as we catch up...
Thank you all for keeping confidence in me. Ted Simon
[/quote]
What was eye-catching was that Ted, Peter, and others reported breaking the fibula in pannier-related injuries. While most also break the tibia, as somebody who pays attention to crash results it was very conspicuous that fibulas alone are being broken, and the number of reports describing less damage to the bigger stronger shin bone (tibia). To show how unusual this is and why it was eye-catching, note the lack of a line for fractures of only fibulas in motorcycle accidents:
(World Health Org study, based in Pakistan data after removing head injuries.)
.
In other words, the pannier-involved accidents seem to be breaking the thinner rear long bone in the lower leg, as opposed to an impact which typically breaks both or just the thicker shin bone (tibia). It was South African Peter who got me to researching after we talked because I'd caught my own boot a couple of times and he said the doctor was surprised that his fracture was from the rear, forward. I knew that was odd, spoke with a PhD in impact kinetics (how people break), an ER doc, and did a bunch of research. The chart above is only from a magazine article but it visualizes what the other sources convey, in that fibula fractures are unusual for a motorcycle impact, which typically comes from the front. The other clue was that both Peter and OzRob said that they could walk right after, since the tibia is the weight bearing bone in the lower leg.
.
At this point and since it related to my own health and my bank account, the result is that I'm fairly confidant that the OP and all of those ADV posts about this subject aren't just smoke or "I think" conjecture and I've changed my behavior. While I'm keeping my big aluminum boxes for road trips, I bought a set of soft bags for times when I won't need as much space as the hard boxes on road trips, or if I anticipate going off of pavement.
Dirt_Dad
Well-Known Member
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This has been an interesting thread and has caused me to contemplate my next move as I anticipate setting up the next Tenere in my life. I hung the side cases on my last (deer-ly departed) Tenere, and they never left that position if the bike was rolling. I had my reasons, and for over 50K miles of Tenere riding, I was very happy with my setup.
It's funny how seemingly unrelated things can have an influence on this decision. In the last 2 months I have twice hit my skid plate so hard that I had to stop the bike to see if I punctured the bottom of my case. This led me to the idea I would get a more substantial skid plate on the next bike. A more significant skid plate means I may be more likely to take the bike deeper off road. Deeper off road means I could find a leg or two behind me on occasion. Mixing that with the side case does not seem like a great idea.
Like I said, interesting thread. It made me think.
... and I'm sure spend money.
It's funny how seemingly unrelated things can have an influence on this decision. In the last 2 months I have twice hit my skid plate so hard that I had to stop the bike to see if I punctured the bottom of my case. This led me to the idea I would get a more substantial skid plate on the next bike. A more significant skid plate means I may be more likely to take the bike deeper off road. Deeper off road means I could find a leg or two behind me on occasion. Mixing that with the side case does not seem like a great idea.
Like I said, interesting thread. It made me think.
... and I'm sure spend money.
triman11427
Member
One of the advantages of soft bags is their flexibility with mounting on the bike. Many brands allow you to mount them as high or low as practical and offer a variable volume. I use Edurostan Monsoons and really use these variables to my advantage. The idea of the heavier objects at the bottom of the bag being as firm as a hard bag just doesn't ring true for me unless its a stove or something that won't move around on impact. Cans will shift and will move around during impact. So a leg caught underneath a bag might have the contents shift to a less damaging position.
The argument that a hard bag may save damage to your bike is a misplacement of priorities when we are talking about injuries to our bodies while in a remote location. Let the bike get damaged vs a leg. The one advantage that is difficult to argue its that hard bags offer more security of your valuables.
Soft bags have come a long way in the last 5 to 10 years and I think there are many advantages to going soft (none that I can think of anatomically) ::025::
The argument that a hard bag may save damage to your bike is a misplacement of priorities when we are talking about injuries to our bodies while in a remote location. Let the bike get damaged vs a leg. The one advantage that is difficult to argue its that hard bags offer more security of your valuables.
Soft bags have come a long way in the last 5 to 10 years and I think there are many advantages to going soft (none that I can think of anatomically) ::025::
shrekonwheels
New Member
I love my soft bags, I just have a pair of sportbike style I kept from the ZX6r days, however I mounted Hard panniers on as the straps require the wife to sit on them. I guess the sheepskin keeps her from that discomfort but it still is something I think about.
I also like Hard Panniers as this is Critter country, so it offers a relatively safe place to store food when out camping, and some minor security if you lock things up to go into a store etc.
I did manage to catch my ankle with hard panniers while riding the KLR. I simply let my foot drag lazily while leaving a gas station and turning, I will not make that mistake again. THey also make me think a bit more about my dirt road riding, while I do not ride agressive, it is one more thing to mess up your day. Plus soft bags can be easily taken off when full should you drop the bike and need that extra weight off to pick it up.
I also like Hard Panniers as this is Critter country, so it offers a relatively safe place to store food when out camping, and some minor security if you lock things up to go into a store etc.
I did manage to catch my ankle with hard panniers while riding the KLR. I simply let my foot drag lazily while leaving a gas station and turning, I will not make that mistake again. THey also make me think a bit more about my dirt road riding, while I do not ride agressive, it is one more thing to mess up your day. Plus soft bags can be easily taken off when full should you drop the bike and need that extra weight off to pick it up.
mebgardner
Active Member
I was browsing for soft luggage support racks, and arrived at this interesting thread.
Having read through this thread, and the related webbikeworld report (with pictures) of the SA fellow's damage cycle...
(Hoping that the SA rider is now well, and fully healed).
I would like to read about thoughts on the "other" type of break that is stated in this thread: Feet on Pegs, Hands on Bars, yet the rider becomes injured due to the cycle's weight being borne by the ankle.
The thread and webbikeworld reports seem to indicate the cycle's pegs can fold even if the cycle is equipped with crash bars (I'm assuming at least lower, but may be upper and lower).
Is there a method of preventing this type of injury? Is there crash bars that offer protection of the foot rest area, preventing them from folding (yes, I realize that would "compromise" lean angle, another tradeoff).
Having read through this thread, and the related webbikeworld report (with pictures) of the SA fellow's damage cycle...
(Hoping that the SA rider is now well, and fully healed).
I would like to read about thoughts on the "other" type of break that is stated in this thread: Feet on Pegs, Hands on Bars, yet the rider becomes injured due to the cycle's weight being borne by the ankle.
The thread and webbikeworld reports seem to indicate the cycle's pegs can fold even if the cycle is equipped with crash bars (I'm assuming at least lower, but may be upper and lower).
Is there a method of preventing this type of injury? Is there crash bars that offer protection of the foot rest area, preventing them from folding (yes, I realize that would "compromise" lean angle, another tradeoff).