Odd clutch actuation.

[Judd]

Today I changed the oil for the 3rd time in it's 5.5K miles. Initial change at 600 and again at roughly 2.5K miles was done with 15/40 Rotella for break in. This change was going to be to 15/50 for the summer temps but there was some concern on here and over on AdvRider related to engine oil type/condition in relation to the clutch dragging causing this issue. While I do not think this issue is oil related, I needed to change the oil anyway and decided to use 5/40 Rotella for a couple of reasons. First, it's the lightest weight oil I feel comfortable using during the summer and secondly,,, I already had it.

Results of running the new, slightly lighter weight oil? Nada, nothing,,,, zero change. Again today, the clutch felt perfectly normal when cranked around 12pm once the oil was changed. Again today, the clutch was exhibiting the same ole symptoms it has been every night after work. This time I did not push the lever forward before pulling it in and again, it had the same notch/pop and the same weak lever until it was nearly touching the grip, engaging roughly a 1/2 inch from the grip. I pulled once, noticed the condition then pushed the lever forward towards the guard and that as every time before,,,, fix the issue.

So, looks like we have the actual symptom down pat and what addresses the issue as a temporary redress. Tomorrow I'll lube the pivot and see if that helps. I don't really have high hopes on that either. :-[

 

[Checkswrecks]

Judd -
Been following your posts and thinking.


Cleaning, lubing the lever pivot, and making sure the bolt is not so tight is binding the lever would be the first and most likely step. But from there, pushing forward on the lever, which you say is effective, simply unloads the stack of parts in the master cylinder.
http://www.partsfish.com/oemparts/a/yam/5004d844f87002275461de86/front-master-cylinder-2


So my thought is that the next step would be to disassemble, clean the seal and stack of parts in the master, then reinstall them. It doesn't take much of a fleck of crud to hang them up.

 

[Judd]

Judd -
Been following your posts and thinking.


Cleaning, lubing the lever pivot, and making sure the bolt is not so tight is binding the lever would be the first and most likely step. But from there, pushing forward on the lever, which you say is effective, simply unloads the stack of parts in the master cylinder.
http://www.partsfish.com/oemparts/a/yam/5004d844f87002275461de86/front-master-cylinder-2


So my thought is that the next step would be to disassemble, clean the seal and stack of parts in the master, then reinstall them. It doesn't take much of a fleck of crud to hang them up.

I think I replied to your post over on AdvRider too but I'll do it here too.

Even though I don't think this will be the underlying issue, I took the lever off and lubed it today just to methodically work through this. I don't know if it helped because I rode it till around 11pm today {day off} so it really didn't have the opportunity to replicate the problem. I can say the issue was not present at 4pm today when I went to remove the lever but that's par for course with this issue.

I really think a combo of the plates wearing in and low reservoir volume are contributing to this issue. Tomorrow {actually tonight for most folks} night will probably verify my hunch that the lever pivot lubrication isn't the issue. If so, I'll simply pop the reservoir top and peel back the accordion boot and give it some air then replace the top.

Basically, the pressure differential from warm to cool combined with a low reservoir volume due to the pads wearing and the pistons being further out causes the piston to retract slightly back into the cylinder due to the partial vacuum. That's my sneaking feeling anyway. We'll see.

 

[bmac]

I really think a combo of the pads wearing and low reservoir volume are contributing to this issue.

What pads are you referring to?

 

[Judd]

What pads are you referring to?

In my best Homer Simpson voice,,, "Dooohhhh!". Had a brain cramp. Replace "pads" with "plates". Sorry about that. :-[

 

[Checkswrecks]

. . . Tomorrow {actually tonight for most folks} night will probably verify my hunch that the lever pivot lubrication isn't the issue. If so, I'll simply pop the reservoir top and peel back the accordion boot and give it some air then replace the top.

Basically, the pressure differential from warm to cool combined with a low reservoir volume due to the pads wearing and the pistons being further out causes the piston to retract slightly back into the cylinder due to the partial vacuum. That's my sneaking feeling anyway. We'll see.

Have you gotten to this point without already popping the 2 reservoir screws and checking the little vent hole in the plastic over the boot?

 

[Judd]

Yep. First I simply wanted to make sure what was happening and what it was doing. First thing I did to address the issue was to lube the lever yesterday. I didn't think it would address the issue but agreed with others it might be worth checking. If it does it again tonight I'll pop off the cover pull back the accordion boot and see if that alone fixes the issue. I sorta think it will but if not, I'll change out the fluid/bleed the next day or so.

If you do everything at once, you won't know what fixed the issue or what the issue actually was. You simply don't experience the symptom anymore.

 

[Judd]

Judd -
Been following your posts and thinking.


Cleaning, lubing the lever pivot, and making sure the bolt is not so tight is binding the lever would be the first and most likely step. But from there, pushing forward on the lever, which you say is effective, simply unloads the stack of parts in the master cylinder.
http://www.partsfish.com/oemparts/a/yam/5004d844f87002275461de86/front-master-cylinder-2

So my thought is that the next step would be to disassemble, clean the seal and stack of parts in the master, then reinstall them. It doesn't take much of a fleck of crud to hang them up.

You got it. ::003::

Yesterday I cleaned and lubed the clutch lever pivot point. While I honestly didn't think it was the issue, the issue did not appear tonight and it has appeared like clock work every night after work for several nights now. I will admit the pivot seemed to be lacking lubrication, possibly missing lubrication from the factory or simply my riding in the rain as I rode in a lot of rain for roughly four days immediately after getting it. It has also seen plenty of rain since while parked at work.

This is exactly the reason I was doing one thing at a time. I still think there is some sorta pressure differential thing going on because for some reason, it's only exhibiting this condition at night. In any event, it looks like the cause of the issue has been found. I'll post up if anything changes.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Glad you fixed it.
Regardless, pop the 2 screws, check the vent hole in the plastic, and make sure you have enough fluid.

You got it. ::003::

Yesterday I cleaned and lubed the clutch lever pivot point. While I honestly didn't think it was the issue, the issue did not appear tonight and it has appeared like clock work every night after work for several nights now. I will admit the pivot seemed to be lacking lubrication, possibly missing lubrication from the factory or simply my riding in the rain as I rode in a lot of rain for roughly four days immediately after getting it. It has also seen plenty of rain since while parked at work.

This is exactly the reason I was doing one thing at a time. I still think there is some sorta pressure differential thing going on because for some reason, it's only exhibiting this condition at night. In any event, it looks like the cause of the issue has been found. I'll post up if anything changes.

 

[MNs10]

I really hope you got it but I wouldn't hold your breath...The clutch lever is pushing a plunger and as long as that plunger is free to travel all the way to were it makes contact with the lever and the lever is starting at 'home', you could lube the pivot with sand and there wouldn't be any change in mechanical movement. If your lever or plunger were for some weird reason 'moving' -getting drawn in by temperature changes causing a vacuum or pressure one would think fresh lube would make the issue worse.

Anyway, I don't mean to be the downer, cleaning and lubing the lever didn't do anything for the symptoms in my case...I hope that is not the case for you. Also while I was having this issue, I didn't have it every single night. -It was very frequent though.

The only thing that consistently kept the symptoms away for any period of time was flushing the fluid for me. -I can't explain that either.

 

[Judd]

I'm still thinking there is more to it than just lubing the clutch pivot as that would not be temp related. Will not mess with nothing for a few days to see if the issue is held at bay then pop the reservoir top to see what happens.

 

[nhdiesel]

Has there been any resolution to this? My new 2015 is doing the same thing. If the bike sits (over night, or a long stop) the first time I pull the clutch in, it doesn't fully disengage. It acts as if I only pulled the lever in half way. I can tell by the feel that the lever is too close to the bar. If I physically push the lever sway from the bar then pull it back in a couple times, it seems to work fine. It would seem like a clutch master issue.

I just wanted to see if you found the issue with yours before I call the dealer. Mine is a 2015 I purchased new last month. 6100 miles as of right now.

Jim

 

[yz454]

Bleed it .

 

[ace50]

I think the small reservoir volume has a lot to do with it. Air expands and contracts more than fluid, and the smaller volume can attain higher pressures, faster too.
That black reservoir in the sun just heats up.
I haven't had this problem but I'd try putting a cloth over it, if it's in the sun, as a test.

This pic is my reservoir on my 'new' 2012 after I got it home and noticed the fluids were dark. Heck I haven't seen one that bad on a 10 year old bike that's been neglected.
Lever needed lubed pretty bad too.

 

[tomatocity]

Flush it... and all will be good.

 

[Judd]

Has there been any resolution to this? My new 2015 is doing the same thing. If the bike sits (over night, or a long stop) the first time I pull the clutch in, it doesn't fully disengage. It acts as if I only pulled the lever in half way. I can tell by the feel that the lever is too close to the bar. If I physically push the lever sway from the bar then pull it back in a couple times, it seems to work fine. It would seem like a clutch master issue.

I just wanted to see if you found the issue with yours before I call the dealer. Mine is a 2015 I purchased new last month. 6100 miles as of right now.

Jim

I took the clutch lever off and lubricated it and it's not happened since. But,,,,, yea there's that "but",,,,,,, I don't know if clutch lever lubing was the whole thing. I still think that it has as much to do with fairly extreme temperature variation and possibly reservoir fill as it does with the lever lubrication.

Let me explain. I think the issue might be a combination of things Lever pivot lubrication might be one of the factors and the reservoir level after being filled completely might be another. If the top cover doesn't have a bleed, a partial vacuum could be forming over the reservoir bellow as it falls due to wear or whatever . I caught hell for saying that on AdvRider because the dude thought I was saying the clutch discs were worn out or something. I did not mean it in that fashion. I just know that the damned fluid goes somewhere and when it does, it sucks the bellow down and like I said, "could" be resulting in a partial vacuum if there is no bleed or a partially blocked air bleed above the bellow. If so, this partial vacuum isn't normally a biggie. But,,,,, let's say that the reservoir gets real hot, such as when it's left in the sun for several hours on a springish day. Pressure could build up if the reservoir air bleed was blocked or partially blocked, this would push the piston inward. Then, lets say it cooled quickly,,,,, it would return right? If the lever was dry and had a lot of friction, it wouldn't allow the piston to return and the first pump or two would be wasted on pulling in fluid and building up pressure behind the clutch piston again???? I noticed that it would take several "pumps" of the lever to return to normal or, you could simply push the lever all the way forward and it would instantly build pressure. This left me to surmise that the piston was left partially down the bore resulting in very little fluid volume to "push".

I do know this, on my application at least,,,,,,, it would only do it after I rode it to work during the day, parked it for 8-12 hours and then went to it at night after it had cooled down. It did it every time that series of event happened. I could leave it parked in the sun all day and as long as it was hot {relative/same temp in any event}, it was perfectly fine. I've parked it in the shed, shaded, no issue. Rode it at night, parked it for several hours and then returned and it was again,,,,, fine. Only if that specific and particular scenario was met, did the issue crop up and when those exact conditions were present, the issue was replicated like clock work.


In short, I lubed the clutch pivot and the issue went away but the average daily/nightly temps also rose and temps were no longer so cool at night. I was going to pop the reservoir lid, see where the fluid level was and pop the top back on without adding fluid just to see if there was a partial vacuum above the bellow. If the bellow was sucked down and there was a air bleed issue, simply popping the top would address it. If there was not a bleed issue in the first place,,,,, nothing would change. Since lubing the pivot "fixed" it, at least for now,,,, I left it alone. If the issue comes back, I will pop the top. If the issue is still present after that, I will flush and bleed the system. If still present, I will lube the pivot again. Only then will one find out exactly what is causing the issue,,,,, IMHO.

 

[nhdiesel]

I doubt mine is temperature related. It will do it after it has sat for 2 hours on a very cool evening (40 degrees) or during a warm day. I'll be calling the dealer. I paid for the extended warranty, and I know how dealers around here are...I'm not touching a thing and possibly voiding the warranty. As it is I might get told "tough luck" since I added Jesse bags and a few farkles.

 

[Judd]

I doubt mine is temperature related. It will do it after it has sat for 2 hours on a very cool evening (40 degrees) or during a warm day. I'll be calling the dealer. I paid for the extended warranty, and I know how dealers around here are...I'm not touching a thing and possibly voiding the warranty. As it is I might get told "tough luck" since I added Jesse bags and a few farkles.

I don't think they will warranty a dry clutch lever pivot and I am betting that for what ever reason it's displaying these symptoms, a simple lubing will address it. I don't think the dry pivot is the whole problem but it's certainly part of the equation that's for sure. So, lube the pivot and see.

Or better yet, we know lubing helps as it helped on mine {and the issue has been gone now for a couple of months or so} so that's a given. Please try a few things for me just for data points.

1. Simply pop the top on the reservoir. Just the top leaving the bellow seal still "stuck" to the reservoir body is it does stick like many do. If the seal in stuck and the bellows is extended into the reservoir simply reinstall the top and see if that helps the issue. If it does "fix it", this might point to a partial vacuum between the lid and the bellow seal.

2. If that doesn't help, pop the top again and pull back the bellow {if it was indeed "stuck to the body} basically allowing air to get under the bellow. Again, see if that fixes the issue.

3. If the two things above do not have an effect, pop the top, suck what's left of the old fluid out {there is so little, one could blot the fluid out with a fairly absorbent towel. Add new fluid and bleed.

Lastly, if none of the above work,,,,, lube the pivot.

Like I said, I really don't think it's just the dry lever. I mighta completely lubed my FJRs pivot a couple three times in the 7yrs and 80K miles I put on it and never had this issue. If you take it to the dealer, they will simply do the easiest thing and lube the pivot and as evidenced my mine,,,,, they will declare it "healed" after a day or two at the dealership. :-\ Since it's a maintenance/lube thang,,,, they might even charge ya for it to the tune of a whole hour's labore for a 10 minute jobbie.

Then a couple three months later you might end up having to take it back where they will them bleed the system. Prolly get "healed" again but all they are doing is addressing the symptom,,,,, not finding a cause. I wanna find the cause.

BTW,,,, Moss Magnuson Act will come in handy if you have a dealership that might try to void your warranty if you work on it yourself or have added something like panniers.

Lookie here- http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/keeping-your-mods-warranty-intact.html

 

[nhdiesel]

I'm well aware of the MMA...I used to be a master tech. Honestly I'd rather do any work than trust the dealer, but the cost of going to court to cover a simple repair isn't worth it. I had a Yamaha dealer try to duck out of replacing a bad seat on my old RX1 snowmobile (common issue with 2003s) because I had a heated shield plug installed (on the dash...no related to the seat at all). It took several calls to Yamaha before I finally got it replaced.

I'm not opening the system at all. The pivot is well lubed and isn't my problem. Its a hydraulic issue. I was just hoping I could show them what caused this issue to save them some time since the dealer is an hour from me and the only days I can go are Saturdays.