Odd clutch actuation.

[Judd]

Posted this over on AdvRider-

Originally Posted by Jud View Post
Been noticing something odd over the last few days. I commute to work nearly every day. Work second shift so I go in during the day, get off work around 12am. I've noticed over the last few days that the clutch is acting very odd. When I first operate the clutch, it feels very odd,,,, almost a slight "pop" or a notch when first pulling it in. The slight "pop" or notch only happens on the first pull.

But wait,,,,, there's more. If I simply crank the bike, pull in the clutch and pop it in gear you can tell the clutch is actually dragging a bit as it make a loud sound and it wants to slightly move forward due the clutch dragging even though I have made sure it's completely pulled in. Also, the clutch let out at this point is almost against the bar, no more than a half inch out or so. It will damned near make you plop it over if you don't mind it as it's easy to stall when you are not used to the close let out.

Then,,, after you ride it for a bit, all better. By the time I get to my first redlight from work {about a mile or so and maybe a dozen clutch actuations later}. Clutch let out is "normal", no dragging when you have the lever all the way pulled. Tonight I tried "pumping" the lever a few times before I popped it in gear. It seemed to help, but not a whole hell of a lot. Still made a loud "thunk" when it went into gear, still slightly lurched forward and while the let out wasn't quite as close to the bar, it was still closer that when I get to my first stop light from work which is about a mile down the road.

Now get this, only happens at night when I go to leave work at night. When I leave for work at 2pm or so,,,, clutch acts completely normal. No notch or pop when pulled back. Clutch lets out at pretty much the normal spot. Nothing like the condition I see at night. The bike is parked at work in the open so it's in the sun during the day. When it's home, most of the time it's in my shed but I have left it out a few times and did not notice this issue as when I leave work???? Odd, damned odd and I have been riding now for 30yrs, have been a mechanic {both car and bike} and I have had a couple of hydraulic clutched bikes during that time. No issues like this.

Oh yea,,,, and the bike has roughly 5500 miles on it now. I did not notice this until say,,,, maybe 3-5 days ago. At first it was so slight a difference that it was hard to notice. I don't know if I noticed it and since I noticed it, it became more noticeable simply because I was looking for it now or if it's actually getting worse????

Between the odd fueling and this,,,, low speed stuff can be a PITA. I will not fiddle with a remap till I get some headers and I don't want to fiddle with the dealership because I've found I'm generally more aggravated after a trip to the dealership than I was before. But,,,, the clutch thing just might be a warranty item if I can get it to reproduce the symptom but it's so quirky,,,, I'll have a hell of a time with that.

As an update, I left for work at 2pm,,,, no issue. After work at 12am it did it again tonight. Same pop/notch feel, same weak lever engaging at nearly the bar. A fellow Adv Rider commented that his did that also and that if he pushed his lever forward towards the hand guard and then pulled it back to the bar,,,, it seemed to fix it but man,,,,, with 5K miles it shouldn't need baby sitting and fixing. Anyone have any experience with this issue.

Has anyone here had this issue and if so,,,,, quickie run down please.

 

[AVGeek]

I can't be 100% sure, as I haven't experienced this myself, but it sounds like the clutch plates may be sticking. There were a few reports from owners here about it happening, even on low mileage bikes. The solution is to pull the cover, and check the clutch plates. Search for sticking clutch here on the board, and you should get the relevant threads with more details.

 

[MNs10]

I had the same exact problem. (I say had because I no longer have the bike) -I think I sent you a pm on another forum…maybe this info will help someone with more intimate knowledge of the system resolve the issue.

Working the lever before starting seemed to improve it and it worked fine after it was warmed up but I don’t liking effing with stuff that isn’t working correctly. I almost dumped the bike one night because to avoid the ‘not going into gear’ part of this issue I would start the bike in gear. The nasty clutch engagement that follows when this occurred caused an off balance stall.

The dealer couldn’t fix it.

I replaced the cap and gaskets.

Replacing the clutch fluid would work for an unspecified amount of time (a month-ish or less)…nearer the end of my ownership with the bike it seemed like the accumulation of information on the issue showed a trend of happening shortly after being ridden in the rain. Rain or shine I ride and I found that I changed clutch fluid more in the spring/fall than in the dry part of summer.

The clutch fluid had a blackish tint (indicates water intrusion) but no sign of a leak.

Covering up the bleed area with a plastic bag when in the rain didn’t help.

I never resolved the issue but I became damn good at changing the clutch fluid.
Good luck.

 

[Mark R.]

It's a simple system. Master cylinder, slave cylinder and clutch. My first guess is the slave cylinder is not working properly. It sounds basically like something is not smoothly transferring the pressure from the master cylinder to the clutch. To avoid chasing phantoms, I would get a rebuild kit for both the master and slave cylinders and install them, and see what you get. This entire system should work flawlessly for decades without much more than the occasional fluid change.

I would also look closely at the clutch lever. Have you lubed it up? If they are not lubed liberally on the pivot, they also make a popping feel as they are actuated.

Sometimes there are defective parts and bad installation even on newer bikes like yours.

 

[EricV]

Brake fluid doesn't compress. If there is no air in the system, it would not do what you describe. The Super Tenere has an annoying habit of trapping an air bubble in the clutch line at a lower junction and what would otherwise appear to be a perfectly normal flush and bleed of the system will not always get that air bubble out. Some have reported success by tapping the line and hard junctions with a screwdriver handle, working from bottom to top.

I've done a lot of brake and clutch system flush and bleed jobs over the last 35 years, but the Super Ten was the first time I had to tie the clutch lever to the bar and leave it sit over night with the reservoir cover off to get that last bit of air out of the system. That's a very old trick that I knew of, but had never needed to use before. I have a vacuum bleeding tool, both manual and compressed air and am very familiar with the bleed procedures for various systems. The clutch reservoir is tiny on the Super Ten, so easier to accidentally pull some air in while working on it.

Check your fluid level, if it's dirty, suck out the old fluid, clean the reservoir, fill with fresh fluid, bleed the system until you believe it to be air free, then tie the clutch lever to the bar and leave it over night, (over your sleep period), with the reservoir cover off. In the morning, un-tie the lever, put the cap back on and test. You may be surprised to find it works as it should. Hopefully it will continue to work as it should. If it doesn't, there is something mechanical going on, or as Mark R. indicated, possibly a bad seal/o-ring, etc.

 

[MNs10]

If there is no air in the system, it would not do what you describe.

While logical. The symptoms show themselves as described by the OP and not all the time or any other time (at first)... -I worked 2nd shift same as Judd and what he describes will do more than ring a memory bell if this happened to you, it is spot on to what I experienced (not similar but spot on).

Also the 'pop' at the lever is not in the lever...it is indicative of the issue about to happen but taking apart the lever, cleaning, lubing has no effect. The issue starts and was only noticeable (at first) when I left work from 2nd shift. Later I could tell when it was time to change the fluid because I could feel a slight difference at a cold start up anywhere which was similar to 'clutch plate stick' but not nearly as pronounced, the lever felt slightly weaker...it was not anywhere near the leaving from work symptoms and frankly the only reason I think I noticed it is because of the heightened awareness due to having this issue.

My fluid was contaminated (slightly blackish) at every bleed and after almost 20,000 miles a pattern seemed to be emerging that riding in rain would would quicken the return of the issue. Blackish/rain seems like a no shitter but I couldn't find a leak and this fluid is not hard to find a leak with. I tied the lever to the bar also...

I think (possibly) - it has something to do with the bike getting hot and wet...expansion/contraction, drawing in moisture and maybe a little air with it...

Judd, it annoys me that I couldn't get to the bottom of this while I owned the bike and your description of the symptoms absolutely mirrored mine so I made this post...if I'm not being helpful just let me know and I will not post anymore on your thread. Good luck.

 

[Koinz]

While logical. The symptoms show themselves as described by the OP and not all the time or any other time (at first)... -I worked 2nd shift same as Judd and what he describes will do more than ring a memory bell if this happened to you, it is spot on to what I experienced (not similar but spot on).

Also the 'pop' at the lever is not in the lever...it is indicative of the issue about to happen but taking apart the lever, cleaning, lubing has no effect. The issue starts and was only noticeable (at first) when I left work from 2nd shift. Later I could tell when it was time to change the fluid because I could feel a slight difference at a cold start up anywhere which was similar to 'clutch plate stick' but not nearly as pronounced, the lever felt slightly weaker...it was not anywhere near the leaving from work symptoms and frankly the only reason I think I noticed it is because of the heightened awareness due to having this issue.

My fluid was contaminated (slightly blackish) at every bleed and after almost 20,000 miles a pattern seemed to be emerging that riding in rain would would quicken the return of the issue. Blackish/rain seems like a no shitter but I couldn't find a leak and this fluid is not hard to find a leak with. I tied the lever to the bar also...

I think (possibly) - it has something to do with the bike getting hot and wet...expansion/contraction, drawing in moisture and maybe a little air with it...

Judd, it annoys me that I couldn't get to the bottom of this while I owned the bike and your description of the symptoms absolutely mirrored mine so I made this post...if I'm not being helpful just let me know and I will not post anymore on your thread. Good luck.

Sounds to me that what you're feeling is being transferred through the clutch actuation to the lever and that something is binding in the clutch assembly. In my opinion, the fluid in the clutch is not going to expand and contract like the mechanical components in the clutch. There's not much to the clutch and should be able to easily find the issue by removing the basket and measuring stuff for straightness and wear. YMMV.

Probably don't have to removed the basket, just the pressure plate and discs.

 

[EricV]

I think (possibly) - it has something to do with the bike getting hot and wet...expansion/contraction, drawing in moisture and maybe a little air with it...

Judd, it annoys me that I couldn't get to the bottom of this while I owned the bike and your description of the symptoms absolutely mirrored mine so I made this post...if I'm not being helpful just let me know and I will not post anymore on your thread. Good luck.

I think your direct, first hand experience with the same problem is helpful. Just sucks that you were unable to sort it and have a conclusive fix.

I agree that there are several other things, from a sticking clutch push rod to stuck or sticking friction disks, but the fluid flush/bleed and tying the lever down are the cheapest, easiest things to try first. If that fails, on to the next more complex or expensive option.

 

[tomatocity]

I like what you guys are thinking and the problem is probably in that area. My first, very uneducated/experienced, thought was engine oil and the Tenere being on the sidestand for ten hours in cold air temperatures. What is the oil level? What oil is being used? Would being on the sidestand drain the oil off the clutch disc's? Just a thought.

 

[Judd]

Update on the clutch issue.

Rode it to work again today. Again, like normal,,, no clutch issue at all when leaving the house at 2pm.

I did not lube the pivot point as I want to keep the data points on equal footing.

When I went out to the bike tonight I immediately pushed the lever towards the hand guard and noticed what felt like free travel for a bit. After pushing it all the way forward I could I pulled it back and it felt completely normal. Normal as in "not fugged up feeling".

Tomorrow night I will not push it forward and see if it feels odd like it has been feeling. Then, will try the "push it forward" thing once more to rule out coincidence.

After ruling out coincidence {assuming pushing forward corrects the issue every time}, I will try putting a bike cover over it when at work and see if the issue continues. I have a feeling that the brake master and reservoir are heating up in the sun and the fluid is expanding. After sun down the temps fall and the fluid contracts. I believe this expansion and contraction in a sealed system is what's cause the issue. Why it doesn't happen on other bikes including other Yamaha models that probably use some of the same components is something I have no explanation for at this point.

Once I get through the above I'll lube the pivot and see if that's got anything to do with it. I doubt it but if it's one thing I've learned is that you never discount anything.

If it's still doing it after the heat shielding and lubing,,, I'll first bleed the system flushing at the same time.

I want as much data as possible before I take it to the dealer if it comes to warranty work. And yes, if it's temp. induced expansion/contraction causing the issue,,,, I will still expect it to be addressed as I shouldn't have to push the lever forward every time I ride off from work on a bike that cost this much.

This is why I like simplicity and simple woulda been a cable actuated clutch. The only issue I have ever had with my DL650's clutch was the bell crank thingie's ball bearings falling out and getting lost a time or two {1st time was my fault and I learned my lesson, 2nd time a friend did it not knowing about it} when I removed it while changing the sprocket. Woulda prolly been lighter and cheaper too.

 

[Judd]

While logical. The symptoms show themselves as described by the OP and not all the time or any other time (at first)... -I worked 2nd shift same as Judd and what he describes will do more than ring a memory bell if this happened to you, it is spot on to what I experienced (not similar but spot on).

Also the 'pop' at the lever is not in the lever...it is indicative of the issue about to happen but taking apart the lever, cleaning, lubing has no effect. The issue starts and was only noticeable (at first) when I left work from 2nd shift. Later I could tell when it was time to change the fluid because I could feel a slight difference at a cold start up anywhere which was similar to 'clutch plate stick' but not nearly as pronounced, the lever felt slightly weaker...it was not anywhere near the leaving from work symptoms and frankly the only reason I think I noticed it is because of the heightened awareness due to having this issue.

My fluid was contaminated (slightly blackish) at every bleed and after almost 20,000 miles a pattern seemed to be emerging that riding in rain would would quicken the return of the issue. Blackish/rain seems like a no shitter but I couldn't find a leak and this fluid is not hard to find a leak with. I tied the lever to the bar also...

I think (possibly) - it has something to do with the bike getting hot and wet...expansion/contraction, drawing in moisture and maybe a little air with it...

Judd, it annoys me that I couldn't get to the bottom of this while I owned the bike and your description of the symptoms absolutely mirrored mine so I made this post...if I'm not being helpful just let me know and I will not post anymore on your thread. Good luck.

No issue at all with you chiming in with your experience as it perfectly mirrors mine. Your explanations of how it feels and experiences are just like mine. Couldn't get two people who have never met to come up with the same symptoms and be able to explain them almost exactly. Least I know I'm not being "picky" or anal about this as you and the other guy from Ga. on AdvRider all have experienced the exact same thing and explained it exactly alike. Will also give me some ammunition if this progresses into to a warranty issue.

 

[Judd]

It's a simple system. Master cylinder, slave cylinder and clutch. My first guess is the slave cylinder is not working properly. It sounds basically like something is not smoothly transferring the pressure from the master cylinder to the clutch. To avoid chasing phantoms, I would get a rebuild kit for both the master and slave cylinders and install them, and see what you get. This entire system should work flawlessly for decades without much more than the occasional fluid change.

I would also look closely at the clutch lever. Have you lubed it up? If they are not lubed liberally on the pivot, they also make a popping feel as they are actuated.

Sometimes there are defective parts and bad installation even on newer bikes like yours.

All good ideas and whole heartedly agree. I work in the QA field and one of my jobs has been trouble shooting production issues and warranty returns. Just knee jerk reaction for me to go through things methodically in order to find the root cause. Replacing parts will often "fix" an issue but you don't always know if the "part" fixed the issue or something you did while replacing the part did the trick.

Believe it or not, this is my third ambient temperature related issue I've had associated with vehicles. First was a GSXR that would let you know perfectly like clock work when the valves were getting tight. Would refuse to start when temps went below the 40s. Second was a Buick GN that would buck and surge at light tip-in throttle and it would only do it once ambient temps got into the high 80s/low 90s. Both of those were real PITAs to trouble shoot too.

BTW, I usually try not to jump to conclusion but the reason I'm considering this to be temp. related is because it only does it after work when the temps have gone down. If it were simply a time related/sitting idle issue I would probably see the issue manifest when leaving for work also.

 

[Judd]

I like what you guys are thinking and the problem is probably in that area. My first, very uneducated/experienced, thought was engine oil and the Tenere being on the sidestand for ten hours in cold air temperatures. What is the oil level? What oil is being used? Would being on the sidestand drain the oil off the clutch disc's? Just a thought.

Not discounting your thoughts but I would think that if the clutches had anything to do with the issue I would notice it before and after work as the bikes sits longer at home than at the parking lot at work.

Oil level is pretty much perfect. Oil is getting close to oil change interval time and will probably change it out this Sunday or the next. I used Shell Rotella 15/40 at the 600 mile break in change and at 2k miles. I'm going to switch to 15/50 M1 coming up this next change. Will use 5/40 Rotella when temps fall again in the fall.

Which brings me to a totally unrelated question. Wonder why Yamaha recommends changing the filter every other oil change? This is contrary to most folks recommendations based on hard data??? I've been a fan of the bobistheoilguy website for years and hundreds if not thousands of oil analysis data points seem to point out that the oil gets dirty and filter become clogged and go into bypass faster than the additives wear down. Adding make up oil when changing the filter only improves the additive levels. Considering the filter size on these bikes and the fact that these are wet clutch engines that share engine and tranny/clutch oil, I would think it would be an ever larger issue yet the factory recommends the exact opposite???? :-\

On my other water cooled bikes with fairly generous sump capacities I generally do oil filters at 2.5K miles and oil changes at 5K miles. Air cooled bikes get 2.5K oil and filter changes with 5/40 in wither, 15/50 summer. On my cars, it's 5K filter and 10K changes with either 5/30 or 5/40 Rotella once outta warranty.

 

[Juan]

My first thoughts is that the problem could well be the oil specs. If you're riding in cold temperature use oil for that situation, such as 5/40. I live in Malta (south Mediterranean), so it's never that cold. In such a climate I use 15/50 (Castrol semi-synthetic) because it could get real hot in summer. I'm saying it's probably the oil because I experienced it first hand last summer, when I rode to the Black Forrest in Germany. It was cold there and my 15/50 oil gave me a hard time changing gears, especially engaging first gear. Back to south Europe and the problem disappeared.

The wet clutch system lets the discs slip on each other but if the oil is too viscous this slipping is hampered.

This experience might be of some help too you.

 

[trikepilot]

Some of us have had clutches go bad - attributed to milling errors on the basket or fingers by the manufacturer. They were fully replaced by Yamaha under warranty. I have posted about my particular situation a good bit on this forum so there should be plenty of reading.

We were discussing this at Romney last weekend and the consensus was that the definitive test for a bad clutch is as follows (do it both cold and hot):

1. Place bike on centerstand
2. Start bike
3. Place in first gear and let out the clutch completely
4. Run for a few seconds and then pull in the clutch completely
5. Does rear wheel spin stop on its own?
6. If yes, then clutch basket/plate sticking or notching is not likely the issue
7. If no, then place boot against spinning back tire and apply pressure to stop spin
8. If you cannot stop spin or it takes a ton of pressure to stop spin - then you likely have an issue

Good luck

 

[bmac]

BTW, I usually try not to jump to conclusion but the reason I'm considering this to be temp. related is because it only does it after work when the temps have gone down.

I am not so sure it is temp related. Mine does it when it sits over night but it does not sound as bad as yours. The clutch engagement point moves a little closer to the handlebar. I only have 3000 miles on and it happens fairly often when first starting out whether that is early in the morning or middle of the afternoon, regardless of temperature. After a few miles the clutch engagement point returns to normal. I will try the procedure as EricV has suggested and see how that works.

 

[Judd]

I am not so sure it is temp related. Mine does it when it sits over night but it does not sound as bad as yours. The clutch engagement point moves a little closer to the handlebar. I only have 3000 miles on and it happens fairly often when first starting out whether that is early in the morning or middle of the afternoon, regardless of temperature. After a few miles the clutch engagement point returns to normal. I will try the procedure as EricV has suggested and see how that works.

You might well end up being right but like I said, for some reason mine only does it when I leave work at night, when the temps have dropped considerably from earlier in the day. I leave for work around 2pm and it haven't had the issue once when leaving for work. As I said, it sits longer at the house than in the parking lot at work. I have let it sit for several days and hopped on with no issue but it wasn't at 12am at night.

 

[Judd]

My first thoughts is that the problem could well be the oil specs. If you're riding in cold temperature use oil for that situation, such as 5/40. I live in Malta (south Mediterranean), so it's never that cold. In such a climate I use 15/50 (Castrol semi-synthetic) because it could get real hot in summer. I'm saying it's probably the oil because I experienced it first hand last summer, when I rode to the Black Forrest in Germany. It was cold there and my 15/50 oil gave me a hard time changing gears, especially engaging first gear. Back to south Europe and the problem disappeared.

The wet clutch system lets the discs slip on each other but if the oil is too viscous this slipping is hampered.

This experience might be of some help too you.

Again, not discounting nothing right now but it only just started in the past week or two. It's spring in Georgia and the temps have been climbing. Last night was one of the warmest nights we've had at around the 72 degrees. Night before was in the low to middle 60s. If anything, it seems to be getting worse as the night time temps are on the rise. The reason I'm thinking it's temp related isn't so much the actual ambient temperature, it's the temperature difference it sees.

In any event, I would think that if it was related to oil thickness I would see the clutch drag but I doubt I would experience the issue at the clutch lever.

 

[EricV]

Some interesting and well thought out ideas and suggestions.

If you do feel it's temp related after the initial tests, there is a simple possibility. I've only seen it once on the brakes, as opposed to the clutch. And honestly, I think it would have manifested itself at other times if it was this issue. If the master cylinder is over filled, there isn't enough room for expansion as the fluid warms up and expands. When it happens on the brakes, they start to drag. I would think it would cause the clutch to disengage slightly... but perhaps it manifests in a different way due to the differences in that system, as opposed to brakes?

Keep us posted. ::008::

I've ridden in sub freezing temps and parked the bike outside on the side stand in Alaska to Arizona and not had this issue, so I'm thinking oil specs/temp is not an issue here, (unless you were running some weird oil with friction modifiers or two stroke stuff). Even Rotella won't cause these symptoms.

 

[Judd]

Some interesting and well thought out ideas and suggestions.

If you do feel it's temp related after the initial tests, there is a simple possibility. I've only seen it once on the brakes, as opposed to the clutch. And honestly, I think it would have manifested itself at other times if it was this issue. If the master cylinder is over filled, there isn't enough room for expansion as the fluid warms up and expands. When it happens on the brakes, they start to drag. I would think it would cause the clutch to disengage slightly... but perhaps it manifests in a different way due to the differences in that system, as opposed to brakes?

Keep us posted. ::008::

I've ridden in sub freezing temps and parked the bike outside on the side stand in Alaska to Arizona and not had this issue, so I'm thinking oil specs/temp is not an issue here, (unless you were running some weird oil with friction modifiers or two stroke stuff). Even Rotella won't cause these symptoms.

The over filled reservoir might well be an issue. Matter of fact, it's high on the list because like I stated, I think the issue is expansion and contraction of the fluid as it goes through heating and cooling cycles. Since it seems to only occur once it's cooled down from being at a higher temp., one would surmise that the sealed system is creating a partial vacuum or the pressure from heat related expansion when it was hot pushed the piston further forward and when it cooled it didn't retract as it wasn't being manually cycled. It'll be on the list of things to take note of for sure.