Melted connector

dcstrom

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
2,035
Thanks Dogdaze! In Germany, will check them.

Err just got the price from the dealer €352/$396. Ugh. vs $150 from the States. Definitely have to come up with another supplier.

Checkswrecks, battery is only a year old, hope it's ok. Seems to be taking a charge anyway...
 

dcstrom

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
2,035
Dogdaze said:
Try these..
The second one is actually a used part from the Netherlands, but have dealt with them before and are fast service.
Thanks - I looked on ebay but didn't find the dutch one. Working with my Yamaha contacts in Germany now, will see what they come up with, otherwise the used one for 82 euro is probably not a bad option.

I checked the KFM site, only a little cheaper than Yamaha RRP at 324 euro.
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
11,550
Location
Damascus, MD
The used one should be fine. Try to get it from a post 2012 bike, as that seems to ensure the newer superseded part #.
 

dcstrom

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
2,035
Checkswrecks, I got a used one, the updated version. Tried in the bike today...

The output wire from the regulator to the battery, the one that melted the connector before, got very hot after a couple of minutes with the bike running. The regulator was pretty hot too. Test says 13.8 volts/70 amps is going to the battery. My mate says the amperage is way too high (I don't know much about these things :D ) although voltage is correct. (I can't find a spec for the amps) We can't figure out how this can be... we shut things down to (hopefully) avoid damage to the new regulator.

John, measuring the resistance of the 3 white wires as per the manual gave us .3 ohm on each. That's outside spec, what does that tell us?


jaeger22 said:
+1 on what Checks said. There is one other test you can do before firing it up, On page 140 of the manual it gives the procedure for checking the Stator coils. (the stationary portion of alternator)
Check the resistance from each of the three white wires going to the regulator from the stator to each other wire. i.e. 1 to 2, 2 to 3, and 1 to 3. They should read .112 to .168 ohms. That is very low and almost a short but if one is open that would be clear. Not much chance that they will be bad but worth a quick check as you have the connector exposed anyway.
Good luck.
John
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
11,550
Location
Damascus, MD
dcstrom said:
Checkswrecks, I got a used one, the updated version. Tried in the bike today...

The output wire from the regulator to the battery, the one that melted the connector before, got very hot after a couple of minutes with the bike running. The regulator was pretty hot too. Test says 13.8 volts/70 amps is going to the battery. My mate says the amperage is way too high (I don't know much about these things :D ) although voltage is correct. (I can't find a spec for the amps) We can't figure out how this can be... we shut things down to (hopefully) avoid damage to the new regulator.

John, measuring the resistance of the 3 white wires as per the manual gave us .3 ohm on each. That's outside spec, what does that tell us?

If not already off, I'd pull the alternator cover and check resistance as close as possible to the coils. It'll tell whether you are looking at a wiring issue versus replacement of the alternator.
 

WJBertrand

Ventura Highway
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
4,547
Location
Ventura, CA
If you have actually measured 70A going into the battery, I suspect an internal short in the battery or a hot short to ground somewhere between the alternator and the battery. That much current ought to blow the main fuse, not sure why it hasn't or did I miss that in this thread?
 

Spider

Active Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Messages
218
Location
Houston, TX
Just curious for someone more electrically-inclined than me. The alternator is 600 watts. At 13.8 volts, that would be 43 amps. Where are the other 37 amps coming from, the alternator or the battery?
 

dcstrom

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
2,035
Nope. Main fuse didn't blow, melted the connector instead!

WJBertrand said:
That much current ought to blow the main fuse, not sure why it hasn't or did I miss that in this thread?
 

jaeger22

Member
2012 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
358
Location
Orlando, FL
John, measuring the resistance of the 3 white wires as per the manual gave us .3 ohm on each. That's outside spec, what does that tell us?
Trevor, the manual states "if out of range, replace the Stator" . . . . .Yeah right! Bad idea. $240 on cheapcycleparts.com and probably nothing wrong with the one you have. The problem here is that this is a very, very low range of impedance and therefore very difficult to measure accurately. Any minor resistance anywhere in the path will overwhelm the reading. Checks idea of getting down closer to the Stator is good thinking but in this case the connector where you are measuring is wired directly to the stator so there is no place to measure down stream of the connector. The key is that you did not find any open or short. So I would assume the Stator is good but file that information away in case things get strange when you fire it up. The real key is the charging voltage. If there is still a problem you will see it there clearly.

Just curious for someone more electrically-inclined than me. The alternator is 600 watts. At 13.8 volts, that would be 43 amps. Where are the other 37 amps coming from, the alternator or the battery?
The key part here is the 13.8V. If you get an excessive load, the voltage will drop as current shoots up. For example, if it dropped to 8.5V and was still making 600 watts, the current would be 70 amps. . . .
Can't say that is exactly what is happening but you get the idea.
John
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
11,550
Location
Damascus, MD
John -
True about being wired directly, but there are two reasons that I said to check closer to the stator. The first is that it's not uncommon for folks to not clean enough wire in replacing connectors, leaving a high resistance. This would fit with the out of spec found. Second was to visually look for dark areas, indicative of stator damage.


Good reference that I've posted before. You are on page 2: http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf


Trevor / All -
Getting back to basics, there are really only 4 pieces in the charging system of these bikes. The alternator, regulator, battery, and wiring. I'll add that t's very easy to be inaccurate making measurements at low resistance, too. So addressing each:


WIRING: Since it's cheap and good husbandry anyway, I'd still start by making sure the wiring is OK and each of the connections are truly clean and intact. Inspect the terminals for darkening. As mentioned, it's easy to not cut far enough back in replacing splices and keep copper with an oxidized surface, or to have it cooked in more than one location. Since this connector got that hot, the spades in the regulator plug could also have cooked. Pull each end of the harness, look closely at the pins themselves, and measure to make sure you have truly low resistance through each wire circuit. Do it at the fuse too, and it'd be a cheap precaution to replace the fuse.


ALTERNATOR (Yamaha calls it an AC magneto): You still need to get the resistance from each wire to the engine case (ground). I checked the mx manual and the numbers John gave were right, so what you reported is nearly double the allowable and the manual is clear that the stator should be replaced for this. The alternator is simply a permanent magnet spinning between the three coils and doing so creates an output voltage. Usually, they fail by heat breaking down the insulation in the coils so one or more of them go low in resistance. It's unusual to go high in resistance, but this is the source of all the power which burned out that one connector and melted the old regulator. My guess is that you will end up replacing it.


REGULATOR/RECTIFIER: You replaced it, but it's certainly possible to get a bad reg on the used market. In the old days you could find values for checking the reg by going pin to pin, but our manual has no data like this. Unless somebody has their reg unplugged and can provide numbers, and with your bike in question, the only real way to know would be to plug the regulator into another bike and see if it allows 14 V at 5000 rpm.


BATTERY: Replaced recently, but you could swap it to another bike to see if the battery has an internal short.


Let us know what you find.


Bob / CW
 

jaeger22

Member
2012 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
358
Location
Orlando, FL
Checks, a lot of good thoughts here and an excellent flow chart. Checking all connections for a good contact is for sure a good practice. However I still remain highly skeptical about the resistance readings being an issue. I don't know how accurate Trevor's meter is but not many are able to measure down that low accurately. I now know none of mine are! :(
I wanted to provide the results from a known good Stator so I tried an experiment and pulled my bike apart to measure the resistance between each of the three white wires at the plug. (PIA! ) I happen to have 4 digital meters. All cheap ones to be sure but always more than good enough for typical voltage and resistance checks. Only one of them would read zero with the leads shorted together. Not a good start. . .
That meter read .2 to .3 ohms (flickering back and forth) across the white leads. The Radio Shack meter read -.3 with the leads shorted and 0.0 across the wires so I guess it kind of read .3. . . . ::) Got to love that negative resistance. LOL
One meter read .2 with the leads shorted and .4 across the leads.
So anyway I would not be overly alarmed about a .3 ohm reading as long as the charging voltage falls in the right range. As on your flow chart, that is the first and most important test INMHO. And if it is good. . . . ::021::

Best of luck to Trevor.
John
 

dcstrom

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
2,035
Thanks John, hope you had fun pulling you bike apart for my benefit ::008:: Good info! Readings were taken with (what looks like to me ) a fairly high end meter. Tomorrow I'll try with mine which is a mid-range one (I think). Thanks again. And Checks too.
 

dcstrom

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
2,035
Thanks Bob and John - SO I went through as much of the troubleshooting as I could...

  • Battery seems ok - holding after a charge 4 days ago at 12.5 volts
  • I checked both the old and the new/used regulator using this method - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8EjV0IjW9Q
  • They BOTH check out OK. Slight differences in readings between the two, but that may be due to the fact the new one is a later iteration.
  • Fuses all ok - pulled and reseated anyway.
  • "Since this connector got that hot, the spades in the regulator plug could also have cooked." No sign of this Bob.
  • Checked resistance on the 3 white wires from the alternator - John, like your meter, mine read .2 with leads shorted, and 3 or 4 across the connectors. So I'm gonna call that good, and not do the test of the wires at the stator. Main reason being I'm not ready to pull the cover off just yet.

Connected the battery, bike starts and runs fine.

  • off 12.5v
  • At idle 12.9 v
  • At 5000 rpm, 13.9 with the old regulator, 13.8 with the new one

So all seems pretty good. EXCEPT... the black/white wire from the output side of the regulator, the same one that melted the connect, is getting VERY hot. Enough to soften the plastic coating after a few minutes running. This is the one that my friend says was putting out 70 amps (although I don't know how he got that, my meter will only do up to 10 - if I understand correctly).

The regulator itself gets warm but not hot in the same period of time. This I imagine is normal but the old one DID get hot enough at when this first happened to melt the glue off the alloy backing plate.

So, seems stupid but what could be causing that wire to overheat if the regulator is OK? I double checked the new connections, clean and tight.
 

trainman

New Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
156
Location
norwich, uk
the manual says 14v at 5000rpm, so it looks good as you say

maybe its time to assume for a moment that the charging side is ok and you have a large current drain coming from somewhere else, you can remove fuses one by one and use a DC current meter across the fuseholder (polarity correct) and see what each circuit is pulling, but some of the fuses are 20 or 30A so your meter might not be man enough (the main fuse is bigger still i think)

or just pull fuses and see if the wire gets hot, trouble is pulling some will result in no engine run!

mark
 

jaeger22

Member
2012 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
358
Location
Orlando, FL
+1 I think Mark is on the right track. My guess is that the overheated connector and regulator were not the cause of the problem but a symptom of something pulling too much load downstream. I admit is is unusual for something to pull that much current without popping a fuse. So maybe something strange like a high current wire partly shorted to the frame but not shorted enough to blow the fuse. ::) It could be " interesting" to track down.
Good luck and let us know what you fine.
John
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
11,550
Location
Damascus, MD
Mark's got a good idea with looking for a high load. Try to not run the bike for more than a couple minutes at a time till this is figured out. Since the battery is holding a charge, this potential load would be in the systems only active when the key is on and maybe only when the engine is running. If it is really 70A and not 70W, it ought to melt the insulation off of whatever wire is involved.


Have you tried running it with a different battery, even temporarily?



It's easy to get a fuse that does not do it's job, so again, I would change it and not use a cheapie.


You being there (when you get back from the show) and us being here, it sounds like time to get a good electric person involved over there. Not knocking the guy you've had involved, it's just that some folks are more experienced with electrics than others.
 

Jeff Milleman

Active Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
326
Location
Ft Lauderdale ,Florida/ N Georgia
1st ck main power wire powering up fusebox with a amp prob, note amps , 2nd ck each fused wire in box with amp prob , whats drawing hi amps? Like someone said does it have to run to get hot or just turn the key on ? We need a wire diagram to know where that wire goes !
 

dcstrom

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
2,035
Checkswrecks said:
Mark's got a good idea with looking for a high load. Try to not run the bike for more than a couple minutes at a time till this is figured out. Since the battery is holding a charge, this potential load would be in the systems only active when the key is on and maybe only when the engine is running. If it is really 70A and not 70W, it ought to melt the insulation off of whatever wire is involved.
Pretty sure it's only when the engine is running.

Have you tried running it with a different battery, even temporarily?
No

It's easy to get a fuse that does not do it's job, so again, I would change it and not use a cheapie.
I have some German fuses I'm going to put in - should be good quality but you never know LOL!

You being there (when you get back from the show) and us being here, it sounds like time to get a good electric person involved over there.
Yeah just going to try a few more things, then it's off to the dealer, or someone.
 
Top