Is there something wrong with my clutch? I'm going to go crazy.

[RicoChet]

Hey Guys. Me again. Sorry. I know some of you by now are rolling your eyes going "What now?" but believe me, I wish this wasn't necessary to ask. I'm not having fun with my Super Tenere for the past little while, and I don't know what the hell is going on.

Just this past weekend I had my bike in the dealership for the second time, in the shop for a week, trying to diagnose this brake problem I had with catchy/grabby front brakes at low speeds but this isn't what I am concerned about right now. While the bike was in for service I asked them to change my oil again for the second time from the crap Mineral oil they put in the first time round.

After they changed the oil the first time I noticed that starting my bike in the morning was hard, my clutch was just completely unusual. When I would pull away in first, the friction zone was too close to the handle bar, causing my bike to shoot forward with just the slightest of clutch release. My gears felt tighter, harder to shift as well. After about 5 minutes of riding, everything feels "Normal". They told me they put in Mineral Oil. I should of asked them to put in Full synthetic as i've done for all my previous bikes.

Now, I brought the bike back to them and complained about how my bike acts after not being ridden for a few days or hours. I asked the guy to please put Full Synthetic back in the bike, and explained how it runs like crap in the morning, especially since I ride in very cold weather it takes forever for the oil to lighten up. The guy said no problem and I got my bike back, this time now with Full Synthetic Motul 20w50. I don't know shit about oil, but from what I've read in the bike manual 20w50 is appropriate for summer weather. I do not have summer weather! Now my clutch is even WORSE.

Now, when I pull away in the morning, the friction zone is SO close to the handlebar that I am simply in disbelief that any motorcycle should run like this. Never in my 20 years of riding, with the many types of bikes that I've had have I ever experienced this. I am at wits end here. I can't even get on the bike in the morning to enjoy my commute with out being worried about stalling my bike trying to get out of my driveway and onto the main road with traffic. One moment its friction point is at the handlebar, 5 minutes later is at the end. This makes it extremely difficult to "Get used" to the usual position of where the friction point should be, so I find myself revving the piss out of the bike in different places trying to figure out where the friction point is because its different every time I start my bike.

THEN, yesterday I noticed while trying to pull away from a traffic light in first (After about an hour of riding) what I would call clutch judder. The only other bikes I've had this happen on was my 2008 M109R. The back wheel use to hop. On this bike, I felt it just slightly and I almost stalled the bike. Happened again this morning.

My bike has 20,000KM on it, the service guy said "Yeah its almost time to change the clutch" but seriously guys I've never had to change a clutch at this time frame. Even on a 15 year old ST1300 I owned last year it ran like a top.

Guys I don't know if I am riding a lemon, or the oil is a problem, or my clutch is messed up... I dont know. I am afraid to take it back to the dealership again for a 3rd time because I dont know what the hell they will suggest to me.

Does anyone have any suggestions? The only thing I Can think of is that I should of asked them to put in 10w40 full synthetic to cover all operating temperatures that I ride in, but I don't understand if that will fix the stiff clutch in the morning with its terrible friction zone so close to the handlebar. I'm fairly certain yesterday trying to pull out of my driveway I saw the TCS light flash while just trying to move forward, thats how close that friction zone is. HELP!! :'(

 

[Checkswrecks]

The problem sounds like that dealer has twice not listened to you, and worse, the shop manager is not making sure that his mechanics are really addressing the customer complaints. Changing the oil is quite simple and we even have a step by step how-to thread. But if you are in an apartment or otherwise feel totally unable, then your bio says you are in Toronto and there are definitely other motorcycle shops in a big city like that.


Can anybody else in the Toronto area provide RicoChet with some guidance on shops there?

 

[RicoChet]

The problem sounds like that dealer has twice not listened to you, and worse, the shop manager is not making sure that his mechanics are really addressing the customer complaints. Changing the oil is quite simple and we even have a step by step how-to thread. But if you are in an apartment or otherwise feel totally unable, then your bio says you are in Toronto and there are definitely other motorcycle shops in a big city like that.


Can anybody else in the Toronto area provide RicoChet with some guidance on shops there?

Do you have any input regarding the "Feel" of the clutch? At this point, I can't remember what it was like when I bought the bike. All I know is before I brought my bike in for service, I wasn't concerned about this problem... Can others here confirm to me, since I am trying to make sure I am not crazy, that when you start the bike up in the morning and go, that the clutch is EXACTLY the same feeling as it was yesterday, the day before that and any other time. As far as I can remember, the clutch friction point is ALWAYS the same no matter what the weather, day or night. I've never experienced anything like this before.

 

[Zuan]

Could be that you need to bleed the clutch lines. There may be some air in the lines or air seeping in.... I had problems with the friction zone on my bike and having the clutch fluid changed fixed my issue.

 

[RicoChet]

Could be that you need to bleed the clutch lines. There may be some air in the lines or air seeping in.... I had problems with the friction zone on my bike and having the clutch fluid changed fixed my issue.

Thanks for the suggestion! I do want to point out that when I got the bike in November I did not experience this issue. I didn't actually experience this issue UNTIL I got my oil change done. I also believe the clutch lines were bled as per my request on the work order

 

[AVGeek]

The only reason the friction zone should change on a bike is as the clutch wears, and it will be a gradual change, not the abrupt change you've been documenting here. You're not crazy, there is an issue with the clutch the dealership has failed to address correctly.

 

[RicoChet]

The only reason the friction zone should change on a bike is as the clutch wears, and it will be a gradual change, not the abrupt change you've been documenting here. You're not crazy, there is an issue with the clutch the dealership has failed to address correctly.

Good to know I am not going crazy then. One of the things I absolutely hate about the dealership experience is that you try and explain the problem to them, and they just start shooting off "reasons" why its happening. "Oh yes, when Jupiter is in the sky at 9pm then your clutch may respond differently, but thats normal" - "No, its not.. it wasn't like this before I brought it in to you guys" "Yes, but if Saturn is also in the sky then the fluids can change viscositys on the go and you just get used to it" or some crap like that. You should of heard how many excuses the guy gave about why my brakes feel shitty -- one of them was "When your applying the brakes, there are thousands of tiny little pops and explosions that happen as your pads go over the holes in the rotor" -- yeah like thats the reason my brakes were grabby at slow speeds. Jeez.

 

[ace50]

"When your applying the brakes, there are thousands of tiny little pops and explosions that happen as your pads go over the holes in the rotor"

WHAT!? ::010::

 

[AVGeek]

Good to know I am not going crazy then. One of the things I absolutely hate about the dealership experience is that you try and explain the problem to them, and they just start shooting off "reasons" why its happening. "Oh yes, when Jupiter is in the sky at 9pm then your clutch may respond differently, but thats normal" - "No, its not.. it wasn't like this before I brought it in to you guys" "Yes, but if Saturn is also in the sky then the fluids can change viscositys on the go and you just get used to it" or some crap like that. You should of heard how many excuses the guy gave about why my brakes feel shitty -- one of them was "When your applying the brakes, there are thousands of tiny little pops and explosions that happen as your pads go over the holes in the rotor" -- yeah like thats the reason my brakes were grabby at slow speeds. Jeez.

Time to find a dealership where they actually know how to service bikes. Making up excuses is a sign of incompetence...

 

[RicoChet]

WHAT!? ::010::

I had the same reaction. I was actually kind of speechless. As a customer, I don't care what the reason or science behind it is... Just fix the problem using expertise ::002::

 

[WJBertrand]

You say you "believe" your clutch hydraulics were flushed, but by the sound of this dealer, I'd want to witness it myself to trust that they did it. This problem smacks of a hydraulic issue of some kind. The bleeding technique is simple and the fluid is cheap, I would strongly recommend bleeding and flushing the system yourself so you know it's been done and done correctly. Just google hydraulic clutch bleeding, the procedure would be the same for any motorcycle with a hydraulic clutch. You don't need a vacuum bleeder to do this.

-Cover all painted surfaces underneath the reservoir.
-Place a short piece of tubing, preferably clear, on the bleed nipple and direct it into a waste container of some kind

-Pump several times and then hold lever to the bar
-Open bleeder until fluid stops, keep lever against the bar
-Close the bleeder, important, keep the lever to the bar until you've closed the bleeder
-Release the lever
-Check the fluid level in the handlebar reservoir and top off if needed. The ST has a tiny reservoir so pay close attention to this. If you let it get low and suck air you'll have to start all over again.

-Repeat until at least two reservoir's worth of fluid minimum has been bled through the system.

Top off the system one last time and replace the lid to the reservoir. Clean up any splattered fluid thoroughly before uncovering painted areas. Go test ride.

 

[EricV]

Thanks for the suggestion! I do want to point out that when I got the bike in November I did not experience this issue. I didn't actually experience this issue UNTIL I got my oil change done. I also believe the clutch lines were bled as per my request on the work order

(red emphasis by me) Ahh, ok, exactly when did you make that request? Just prior to experiencing this problem, or at the last dealer trip when the problem already existed?

The clutch reservoir on the Super Tenere is tiny. It's very, very easy to over bleed and get air in to the system, and notoriously difficult to get a trapped air bubble out of the system.

Put the bike on the center stand.

Tie the clutch lever to the handle bar, (fully pulled in). A zip tie, bungie cord, what ever, just something that will keep it securely in place over night.

Take the top off the reservoir, (use care not to bugger the screws, a JIS screwdriver helps), and set that aside with the rubber boot so the open reservoir is exposed.

The fluid should be clean, and not all the way to the top, but approximately where the rubber boot would fit. If it's low, add DOT 4 brake fluid. Like the lid says, use only DOT 4 brake fluid.

Cover this with something so nothing will get in/fall in, a rag draped over, but not dipping in, or if it's inside your garage and safe, just leave it exposed.

Take a screwdriver handle and lightly tap the clutch line, starting at the metal junction where it goes into the slave cylinder at the engine and working your way to the reservoir.

Now leave it like this over night.

In the morning, carefully let the clutch lever back out, re-install the rubber boot and lid and screw it down. Then go for a ride and see what it feels like.

Report your findings here in this thread.

As an Aside. Very few motorcycles ever need a clutch replacement. Usually it only happens from abuse. I know 200,000 mile motorcycles on the original clutch. My personal 109k Super Tenere had zero problems with the clutch. In other words, your dealer is a thief and the tech that told you you were getting close to needing a clutch at 20k kms is lying.

Find another dealer and never go back to that one.

 

[RicoChet]

(red emphasis by me) Ahh, ok, exactly when did you make that request? Just prior to experiencing this problem, or at the last dealer trip when the problem already existed?

The clutch reservoir on the Super Tenere is tiny. It's very, very easy to over bleed and get air in to the system, and notoriously difficult to get a trapped air bubble out of the system.

Put the bike on the center stand.

Tie the clutch lever to the handle bar, (fully pulled in). A zip tie, bungie cord, what ever, just something that will keep it securely in place over night.

Take the top off the reservoir, (use care not to bugger the screws, a JIS screwdriver helps), and set that aside with the rubber boot so the open reservoir is exposed.

The fluid should be clean, and not all the way to the top, but approximately where the rubber boot would fit. If it's low, add DOT 4 brake fluid. Like the lid says, use only DOT 4 brake fluid.

Cover this with something so nothing will get in/fall in, a rag draped over, but not dipping in, or if it's inside your garage and safe, just leave it exposed.

Take a screwdriver handle and lightly tap the clutch line, starting at the metal junction where it goes into the slave cylinder at the engine and working your way to the reservoir.

Now leave it like this over night.

In the morning, carefully let the clutch lever back out, re-install the rubber boot and lid and screw it down. Then go for a ride and see what it feels like.

Report your findings here in this thread.

As an Aside. Very few motorcycles ever need a clutch replacement. Usually it only happens from abuse. I know 200,000 mile motorcycles on the original clutch. My personal 109k Super Tenere had zero problems with the clutch. In other words, your dealer is a thief and the tech that told you you were getting close to needing a clutch at 20k kms is lying.

Find another dealer and never go back to that one.

Thanks for your suggestion. I will keep this in mind. Yes, the "Service Advisor" did indeed say that my clutch was probably on the way out at 20,000KM. I had a hard time believing that myself. I've owned many bikes with far more mileage or even around the same mileage with perfect clutch performance. I can and will not believe that a bike like this needs a new clutch at 20K. I Will be speakign with the manager there to see what they have to say about this and see what they will offer. Chances are I will not be going back to this dealership ever. Regarding the Clutch lines being bled, I requested it but they may of not done it. I will check.

 

[gv550]

You bought the bike used from a Honda dealer, correct?
The previous owner could have abused the clutch, warped and glazed the plates. Then traded it......
20w50 should not be used below 10C, 10w40 will cover the temperature ranges we have.

 

[RicoChet]

You bought the bike used from a Honda dealer, correct?
The previous owner could have abused the clutch, warped and glazed the plates. Then traded it......
20w50 should not be used below 10C, 10w40 will cover the temperature ranges we have.

That is correct, I did buy the bike used, as I have with every other motorcycle I have owned.. but I know the risks involved in buying a used bike. In this case, I knew there were risks but for me, this time I knew I just wanted better feeling brakes and that was the original reason I brought my bike in for service. I never knew that having my oil changed would cause me so much grief, the bike is running worse now then it did when I picked it up the first time.. It ran damn near perfect right out of the Honda dealership. Now I have this crazy clutch friction zone that changes places every time I start the bike and the brakes are mostly fixed to my satisfaction.

 

[gv550]

I'm 3 hours from Richmond Hill, I'll bring fluid and my tools and meet you half way. Pick a service center along the 401 and we'll bleed the slave cylinder in the parking lot. Your cost is $1.70 (medium coffee)

 

[RicoChet]

I'm 3 hours from Richmond Hill, I'll bring fluid and my tools and meet you half way. Pick a service center along the 401 and we'll bleed the slave cylinder in the parking lot. Your cost is $1.70 (medium coffee)

lol, thanks for the offer! Where are you located? I'll shoot you a message if I need it, first I am going to make a call to the dealership and see what they have to say for themselves...

 

[EricV]

Regarding the Clutch lines being bled, I requested it but they may of not done it. I will check.

Do you own a phillips screwdriver? That is the only tool you need to follow what I have outlined. It is a simple process and if you don't do it yourself, you will never know if it was done correctly.

It doesn't matter if they did the clutch bleed or not. You need to do what I have outlined, yourself, before taking other action. Many people have done correct clutch bleed processes and still had an air bubble trapped in the clutch line that impacted clutch operation. Even very experienced shop mechanics. This is why the outlined procedure is a good one to follow to verify that no air exists in the system. It very nearly always will allow the trapped air bubble to come to the top of the line and eliminate this issue.

This will eliminate the potential for air in the line and only then can the diagnostic process continue in a positive manner.

You can not trust any dealer to follow proper procedures. The Honda dealer may not have access to the Yamaha Factory Service Manual and may simply be going off general shop practices. This is most often not an issue, but sometimes it IS.

@ gv550 - ::008:: ::012:: A most generous offer indeed.

 

[gv550]

Listowel, northwest of Stratford.

 

[limey]

Ron you are more than welcome to come out to my place and we can start by bleeding the clutch and I have Amzoil if you want to bump your oil.